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Myths about THC and CBD's

sac beh

Member
Copying and pasting the wikipedia article about cannabinoids was a weird thing to do. You understood the topic of the thread before pasting, right?

Sorry I just get bugged when there are already a plethora of threads at IC where that article is pasted, as if someone's done some serious research by pasting it, and I've read it too many times.

What I am promoting is that PURE CANNABIS EXTRACTS including all the terps, the cannabinoids, and the THC, and see how effective that medication would be. Because sorry but Sativex's THC and CBD only doesn't cut it, I know from expeirence, it's not good enough to treat people effectively, because it's missing all the LITTLE things that people don't look at.

The early cannabis meds have their place, but I agree with you that whole plant extracts are going to be important. The full cannabinoid profile along with terpenes adds a balance to the drug that some patients miss with the THC or THC:CBD only meds. I know of some folks who are working on whole plant formulations and currently doing clinical trials with MMJ patients. I don't know where you live, but if you're an MMJ patient you should already be seeing some options along these lines. If not, you still might need to wait a few years for the med form, but they're coming.
 

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
Well on the subject of synthesising cannabis . When you take anything out of it's natural form you change the compostion and this is true with cannabis /all the products made by the Gov. in this case are extremely weak and target certian reactions in the user. For example (Cesamet Nabilone) will make you sleepy ,if your looking for that then it's all good but for the I would prefer to take cannabis in it's natural scorce because not only is it more effective it's much cheaper.
GW is Bayer Asprin atleat they own half of the stocks if not more lol...
Fibro is not somthing that a drug can fix.. It's a reaction in your muscles from lack of sleep. The best way to deal with that is to exercize everyday and bring the muscles back and clean out your system /colon/liver etc.
peace out Headband707
 

DrWhurkle

New member
...
Fibro is not somthing that a drug can fix.. It's a reaction in your muscles from lack of sleep. The best way to deal with that is to exercize everyday and bring the muscles back and clean out your system /colon/liver etc.
peace out Headband707

Fibro isn't caused by lack of sleep, cause trust me, i sleep. In fact in all the years I've had it, I've seen doctors say it's anything from a genetic predisposition disorder, to it was nerves being shot from stress, to the improper sending of signals between the nerve endings and the brain.

In the end, it's overactive nerves. Could be stress for some, could be depression for others, could be sleep deprivation as you say. But in my case it's all a LITTLE different.

See I also have a disorder that blocks CSF fluid to a slight extent, which i was born with and unfortuantely, an 80% risk of death for that particular brain surgery would be stupid on my part. And no, no traditional drug besides Lyrica and Cannabis although in my case Opioids DO work, just can't get them prescribed in this area like I said before, but unfortunately, my state has tried many times to pass MMJ and it hasn't happened yet because the law makers in these areas are extremely worried about destroying the establishment more than people who need medical care.

Unfortunately do to the lack of care on the part of the doctors for trying to make sure the DEA doesn't swoop in on their offices again (which happens twice a year in the city i live in). Yes I am prescribed opiates, but I don't take much, and I do regularly cleanse my body's insides, at least 3-4 times a month actually, just to make sure the opiates don't build up in my rectum and cause me higher tolerance problems than I already have. Lots of water all the time, normal regimine of vitamins and a few extra anti-oxidants of various sources help me keep the tolerance to medications down, but unfortuantley has NOT helped my pain.

But this has also led to no real diagnosis as Fibro is a mixture diagnosis of symptoms, and highly related to nerve endings and also to the spasms i have that are severely violent, in EVERY literally EVERY part of my body. They have only come up with the diagnosis of Fibro and Chronic Pain due to a total of 6 ruptured discs. Nothing more than that, and my neurological disorder I was born with. Although they have never investigated further.

But what I will say is that Cannabis in it's pure form, and hell even Marinol and Sativex, aren't to shabby for some of my 'lighter' symptoms

I will say, for me... DeathStar, Chem-D, Fire OG, White Fire, White Urkle, The White, BubbleStar, and on a mild day Dumpster would do, and no people im not talkin brick weed, im talking the classic.

Those are the strains I constantly use in different patterns a day of this a day of that, if this morning is to bad, bring this out, if not bust that out. That's how I do.


Glad to hear out there that others ARE working are pure extracts. It's where it's at IMO when it comes to making it into a legitimate medication. I just wish my problems would allow me to move, but I am unable to work and disability doesn't pay shit these days, even if you got bills. Anyone on SSDI and SSI will tell you this.

Hopefully, O-How-hIgh-gO eventually does get it on the ballat but so far, everyone has backed out when it came to the hearings, so yea, 2 years and no closer right now in this area.

Sad cannabis is illegal... Never seen a pothead hurt anyone or anything except maybe someone's feelings, and I have to pay the price, sucks. Hope all is well with all.

- Dr. Whurkle -
 

Honkytonk

Member
I got a myth for you guys...

My favorite to date for pain killer i feel had strong CBD properties, and according to my scope it did

Afaik CBD is a colorless substance and therefore it's impossible to distinguish high/low CBD strains by utilizing a microscope.

Any ideas on that? Sam, how does pure CBD look like?
After all this is the med. forum and info like that should probably be as accurate as possible.
 

sac beh

Member
I got a myth for you guys...



Afaik CBD is a colorless substance and therefore it's impossible to distinguish high/low CBD strains by utilizing a microscope.

Any ideas on that? Sam, how does pure CBD look like?
After all this is the med. forum and info like that should probably be as accurate as possible.

Sounds mythy to me. Maybe Sam has worked with pure CBD more and knows whether this is possible, but from what I've read I doubt it is. What might be happening is that he is seeing unique features of specific strains he knows to have the properties he's looking for and believes to be related to CBD.

Its a lot like the myth that trichome color in the harvest period can reveal CBD:THC ratio. This belief is very pervasive. But its more likely that what is being determined in late harvesting and curing is the further conversion of cannbinoid acids to their neutral form, i.e., further synthesis of THC and CBD which is catalyzed during drying/curing. Whereas the CBD:THC ratio along with the whole cannabinoid profile is much more genetically determined.

So I think its more correct to say that the difference being observed with an early vs. late harvest (based on trichome color) is not a change from THC to CBD dominance (the myth) but rather the continued synthesis of THC:CBD according to the chemotype of the plant.
 

Honkytonk

Member
Quite frankly I think it's a matter of 'mistaken identity'.
CBN/CBND and other cannabinoid degradation products are confused with CBD.
Especially obvious if one looks at the faulty 'amber trichs = good painkiller = high CBD' train of thought, which can be debunked by:

Marijuana and the Cannabinoids (Humana Press)
Edited by Mahmoud A. ElSohly, PhD
Chapter 2
Chemistry and Analysis of Phytocannabinoids and Other Cannabis Constituents
Page 23

Cannabinol (CBN) and Cannabinodiol (CBND) types: Six CBN- and two CBND-type
cannabinoids are known. With ring A aromatized, they are oxidation artifacts of THC
and CBD, respectively. Their concentration in Cannabis products depends on age and
storage conditions.

Page 307...
On the other hand, CBN, like aspirin, was only effective in reducing writhing frequency in mice (three times more potent than aspirin) and raising the pain threshold of the inflamed hind paw of the rat (equipotent with aspirin). CBD did not display a significantly analgesic effect in any of the test systems used.
 

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
Cannabidiol (CBD or “Cannabinoid”)

High CBD cannabis provides medical benefit without psychoactive effect. CBD is a cannabinoid with medical potential that is bred from cannabis when the goal is high THC content.

Because CBD is not psychoactive, people who dislike the effects of currently available marijuana, or who are seeking medical benefit without feeling stoned, might like high-CBD strains bred low in THC. High CBD strains may enable patients that need large doses of cannabinoids to ingest the dose they need and still remain functional.

CBD boosts the pain-killing effects of THC while moderating its psychoactivity. CBD has anti-inflammatory, anti-convulsant, anti-psychotic, anti-oxidant, and neuroprotective properties, according to a rapidly expanding array of published studies. It also has a direct inhibitory effect on certain cancer cells. With a few notable exceptions, samples tested to date have contained only trace amounts of CBD.
 

B. Friendly

"IBIUBU" Sayeith the Dude
Veteran
Fibro is not somthing that a drug can fix.. It's a reaction in your muscles from lack of sleep. The best way to deal with that is to exercize everyday and bring the muscles back and clean out your system /colon/liver etc.
peace out Headband707
I have FIBRO and it's a weird one, it deals with a multitude of symptoms from Muscle, Joint, Tendon... pain, it's basically anything labelled "Soft Tissue".
Having said the above, Fibro is also neurological taking it's toll on your nervous system.
So a pill does not work, I have found exercise to be a myth or a very slow up hill battle in my 4 year experience, and only warm baths seem to have a healing effect along with accupuncture, message therapy, Even chiropractic has a small effect,
Anything to bring down swelling or inflammation.

Fibro is a bitch, you have good and bad days, oh don't forget if your body hurts your mind and spirit will be pulled down as well so it's a total mind, body, spirit disease in my opinion

Medicine is completely confused by fibro, I have seen the best medical tallent in Western Canada and they are just up in arms with what and how to do get better. All I have heard consistantly is that it requires little by little exercise, but that's a guess at best cuz if you exercise you are extremely tired the next day, especially enough exercise to make a meaningful difference is hard to do at best.

Whatever is in PURPLE KUSH is the best I have found
 

headband 707

Plant whisperer
Veteran
LOL B-Friendly I too have it and I know all about the crap that goes with it. Because it's attacking your muscles making them fire and inturn that impede nervous system which in turn tells the brain it hurts. This is why any muscles/lack of sleep/ envirormental damage can start this cycle. As far as being able to stop this that means you need to go back to where it started and work that out. Pain killers will work but only to the extent that they are blocking the pain not dealing with it. So I should say that pain killers will work but not get rid of FM and then your just also hooked on pain killers which is another bad road to go down. If you have to do pain killers make sure it's not for FM and for" Disc pain "or other types of pain that Opiates will work on. I too love PK lol the real PK peace out Headband707
 
I got a myth for you guys...

Afaik CBD is a colorless substance and therefore it's impossible to distinguish high/low CBD strains by utilizing a microscope.

Any ideas on that? Sam, how does pure CBD look like?
After all this is the med. forum and info like that should probably be as accurate as possible.

In RCC's book HASHISH! page 203 has a great chart. The compounds are listed with: percents found, physical state at room temp, flash point, melt point, boiling point, and taste/color/other info.

He says CBD is "pale yellow resin or crystals" at room temp. CBD melts at 66-67 C. Thats all he's got for us.
 

Sam_Skunkman

"RESIN BREEDER"
Moderator
Veteran
First of all do you mean a CBD only variety or a THC/CBD variety?
I have posted this many times, but one more time....
If you smoke a CBD only variety you do not get high. In fact if you first smoke enough pure CBD, 100 mg and it is very hard to then get high off THC for several hours or longer.
Smoke a THC/CBD variety and you do get stoned but the high is longer in onset, reduced peak experiences, and a longer but reduced high.
I do not find CBD a "more intense body stone, possibly intense "cotton mouth" and a more relaxed kind of happy pleasant, relaxing high that gives one permagrin and a lot of laughs, the kind of high you can wallow in."

I do not like CBD, it screws with THC in ways I just don't like at all. If you like the high of imported hash then maybe you would like a THC/CBD variety, as almost all imported hash has considerable CBD with the THC.
You need to understand that no one I have tested could tell if a variety had CBD in it or just had terpenoids that mimic CBD's effects. Most Cannabis in the USA has little to no CBD, yet many people believe they have smoked CBD rich varieties, that in fact contained no CBD, just because it caused couchlock and was physical.
I do not believe anyone can tell if a variety has CBD or terpenoids that mimic CBD's effects, maybe I can but I doubt it. I have varieties that everyone when they smoked them, said had to contain CBD, they were THC only.
So the real question is do you really want CBD? A few dispensaries sell confirmed tested CBD rich varieties, like Harborside in Oakland, have you obtained a CBD rich variety to try yourself? If no why not?
THC while important is flat and boring 100% pure, it is the Terpenoids + THC that create all the different subjective effects that users report.
CBD is important to people that easily get the fears from high THC varieties, and for medical users, but as almost no USA Cannabis has had CBD in it, I suspect a lot less people were describing CBD effects as they were describing varieties that have Terpenoids that have CBD like effects, like most Indicas.

100% pure CBD is an slightly off white amorphous powder that when vaporized turns to an oil. It is legal in most of Europe.
-SamS



Different how? (I smacked my palm on my forehead when I just read what you posted :) )

I've been trying to pry this info out of people for months now. There are many people trying to find a higher CBD strain for medicinal reasons, growing different seeds out but we can't get our medicine tested.

Sam, it would be of *enormous* help if someone were to post a detailed description of what you can expect subjectively to indicate you are smoking a higher CBD phenotype.

Supposedly dozens of people are growing purportedly high CBD strains like Cannatonic and posting long grow reports but you never see a smoke report at the end. At least I've yet to find one that gives any indication of how or if it's different than the common stuff out there.

My current working theory is that higher CBD cannabis is responsible for a more intense body stone, possibly intense "cotton mouth" and a more relaxed kind of happy pleasant, relaxing high that gives one permagrin and a lot of laughs, the kind of high you can wallow in if that makes any sense.
 
Last edited:

DrWhurkle

New member
See that's what I meant earlier when I was talking about the fact that pure extracts that still contain ALL the cannabinoids, not selectively, only then will we find the perfect idea of medicinal cannabis, if it were to ever become a world wide thing, it would have to suit the pharmacuetical companies and they want pills, not pot. Same reason we have never had it. Me personally, I know I have grown "supposed high CBD phenotypes" but it comes to the fact that I like a 55/45-60/40 Indica Dom, thats what really matters, and helps me personally. No one knows the WHOLE science yet, but this is why pure extracts really matter.

Thanks Sam for that info
- Dr. Whurkle -
 
more on CBD:

Pot Shots

Who's Afraid of Cannabidiol?

By FRED GARDNER

THC -delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol is often described inaccurately as "the active ingredient in cannabis." At least five other cannabinoids (compounds unique to the cannabis plant) have been shown to exhibit biological activity, and so have some of the spicy-smelling terpenes and other compounds found in plants other than cannabis.

CBD -Cannabidiol- is an active ingredient of cannabis that has been suppressed by growers and governments for countless generations. From Marakesh to Mendocino, plants have been bred for maximum psychoactivity, resulting in high THC and low CBD content. In the Prop 215 era, California growers hoping to develop plants with a high CBD-to-THC ratio have been stymied by lack of access to an analytical test lab. Surreptitious tests have been done on "high grade" plants whose buds turned out to be in the range of 15-20% THC and 0.1% CBD.

The U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration has placed CBD on Schedule I even though CBD has no known adverse effects and doesn't induce "euphoria." The prohibition of CBD exposes the broader marijuana prohibition as strictly a governmental control tactic having nothing to do with public health or "protecting the children." The most dire effects attributed to marijuana -tachycardia (accelerated heartbeat), panic, confusion, anxiety, even psychosis- are effects of THC that CBD actually mitigates! By banning CBD outright and denying growers the means to develop high-CBD plant strains, the government is protecting the American people from an immunomodulator with anti-inflammatory, anti-convulsant, anti-psychotic, anti-oxidant, and neuroprotective properties.

A high-CBD cannabis strain was developed in the 1980s by David Watson and Robert Clarke, American naturalists who founded a company called Hortapharm in Amsterdam to pursue their goal of developing plant strains for different purposes. (The day Watson and Clarke became expatriates is the day the U.S. lost its lead in the field of cannabis therapeutics.) In 1998 Hortapharm sold its seed stock to a British start-up, GW Pharmaceuticals, which has since developed a strain that expresses 97% of its cannabinoid content as CBD

GW plans to test its high-CBD strain as a treatment for rheumatoid arthritis, inflammatory bowel diseases, psychotic disorders, and epilepsy. It is now in Phase 2 trials to determine the dose levels to use in clinical trials involving people. GW mixes its high-CBD and high-THC strains in a 1:1 ratio to make Sativex, a plant extract formulated for spraying under the tongue that has been approved in Canada and elsewhere to treat neuropathic pain associated with multiple sclerosis. CBD evidently bolsters the pain-killing effects of THC while moderating its psychoactivity. In various studies, patients with severe pain have reported getting significantly more relief from Sativex, the mixture, than from GW's high-THC extract.


The 2007 ICRS Meeting

CBD was the subject of several talks and posters that generated buzz at this year's meeting of the International Cannabinoid Research Society, held June 26-30 at a ski resort in Saint Sauveur, Quebec. Among the promising studies: "CBD and the Neural Correlates of Anxiety," by Jose Alexandre Crippa and colleagues at King's College, London, and the Universidade de Sao Paulo. They measured blood flow in various parts of the brain as subjects viewed upsetting images and found that those who had been given an oral dose of CBD had markedly reduced responses. Iddo Magen's team at Hadassah Hebrew University in Jerusalem showed that CBD and 2-AG (one of the body's own cannabinoids) improved cognition and neurological function in mice with liver damage. Erica Carrier and co-workers at the Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, determined that CBD exerts its anti-anxiety effects by activating the adenosine receptors.

Some 350 scientists from university and drug-company laboratories attended. Merck, Pfizer, Eli Lilly, Bristol-Myers Squibb, AstraZeneca, and Allergan (maker of Botox and silicone breast implants) were among the corporate participants. They are all trying to develop synthetic drugs that confer some of the health benefits of cannabis without the psychoactivity. The studies described by representatives of these companies tend not to involve their most promising drugs; or else the speakers are not wholly forthcoming about the structure of the drugs involved.

Other participants included Cayman Chemical (which supplies various companies' products to research labs), Valeant (now marketing a synthetic cannabinoid called Nabilone, developed by Eli Lilly in the 1980s), ElSohly Laboratories (Mississippi-based, the only company authorized by the DEA to grow cannabis in the U.S.), Bedrocan BV (which grows cannabis for the Dutch Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport), Cannasat (a Canadian company with three plant-based products in their pipeline), and GW Pharmaceuticals.

Bayer Health Care, which distributes GW's Sativex in Canada, had set up a large exhibit in one of the rooms dedicated to posters. Geoffrey Guy, the head of GW, expressed embarrassment ("That's not really the sort of thing to do at a scientific conference") and pride ("I rather liked it; the materials they distributed were excellent") in a 1:1 mix.

The meeting's primary sponsor was Sanofi-Aventis, the world's third-largest drug company, which had suffered a major setback in mid-June when an FDA advisory panel voted 14-0 against recommending approval of Acomplia (also known as Rimonabant), a weight-loss drug that works by blocking the CB1 receptor. Acomplia has been approved for sale in the UK and elsewhere, and Sanofi and most securities analysts had projected it to be a blockbuster in the U.S. But the FDA advisors were troubled by the number of suicides and seizures in the clinical-trial data.

When Sanofi first announced at the 2004 ICRS meeting that Rimonabant was proving effective in large-scale trials in Europe, Jeffrey Hergenrather, MD, of Sebastopol and other California clinicians warned that reversing the effects of the body's own cannabinoid system was very likely to cause health problems. Your correspondent had published a piece quoting Hergenrather, slugged "Danger! Danger! Danger!" So it was a little awkward to encounter the charming scientists from Sanofi at this year's meeting, knowing they had just lost out on millions and might hold us partly responsible (when it fact we are under the radar and politically impotent).

Rimonabant has been used by more than 100,000 people in Europe and Sanofi contends that the safety profile may yet turn out to be satisfactory. They're also trying to figure out ways to prevent those most at risk -people with epilepsy, MS, a history of serious depression, etc. etc.- from taking Rimonabant. Unfortunately, the et ceteras are numerous. Sanofi's marketers wish they could sell Rimonabant only to diabetics for whom it would be most beneficial. They dream of applying "genomics" (analyzing every patient's genetic make-up before prescribing) but the reality is a world in which doctors can prescribe for off-label uses and everyone wants to lose 10 pounds.

The consensus among ICRS scientists is that downward modulation of the CB1 receptor is a feasible strategy for treating diabetes and metabolic syndrome, but that Rimonabant -an "inverse agonist" that doesn't simply block the receptor but achieves a reverse effect on endocannabinoid tone throughout the body- was too strong a drug. "Inverse agonists of the endocannabinoid system probably do not exist in Nature," observes Ethan Russo, MD. "Pharmaceuticals that act in such a manner may be outside physiological parameters. The normal order calls for more subtlety of function.

GW is beginning to test a plant strain high in THCV, a neutral antagonist that lightly occupies the receptor but doesn't reverse its effects on endocannabinoid tone. Guy says, "We may get tarred with the brush by those who don't understand the difference between an inverse agonist and a neutral antagonist. It's up to us to present data in due course that reflect those distinctions."

Fred Gardner edits O'Shaughnessy's, the Journal of Cannabis in Clinical Practice. He can be reached at fred@plebesite.com

http://www.counterpunch.org/gardner07142007.html
 

SCF

Bong Smoking News Hound
Veteran
I got a myth for you guys...



Afaik CBD is a colorless substance and therefore it's impossible to distinguish high/low CBD strains by utilizing a microscope.

Any ideas on that? Sam, how does pure CBD look like?
After all this is the med. forum and info like that should probably be as accurate as possible.

I dont find sufficient evidence in most of the stuff posted. A lot more research needs to be done. And by gauging my Trichs, my harvest is to MY optimal quality. And thats all that matters.

But if this new information is coming out, of course we want to know details. A lot of what us growers know about this, was from Ed's Bible, and older books.

SCF
 

titoon29

Travelling Cannagrapher Penguin !
Veteran
Great thread here !!!

Thanks a lot for your post Sam, it is always cool to read you and your trials !!!
It's very interesting to see that CBD has a strong medical application but seems to have not much purpose for heavy herb smokers... Terpens rules !

In 1998 Hortapharm sold its seed stock to a British start-up, GW Pharmaceuticals, which has since developed a strain that expresses 97% of its cannabinoid content as CBD
I've kept on reading about this 97% cbd, as well as this 97% thc from hortapharm, but haven't seen any pict of the plant or any more info...
Not that I have a particular interest in this stuff, it's just that it would be very impressive to see how selective breeding can lead you to this. Meaning that nowadays strains could and will probably increase their thc ration. Any link ?

++
 

Hash Zeppelin

Ski Bum Rodeo Clown
Premium user
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Okay bro I have a few tricks up my sleaves ..
If your growing one of the things you can do with your crop is let it the Trichomes go amber and you can push this and the longer you push that the sleepier the cannabis becomes. There is still only a 2 week window so don't push it too much lol.. Stay within that range and you will get a very narcotic cannabis.
Another great trick and I use this one all the time and it seems to be very popular is cooking cannabis with olive oil ,sunflower oil. You can use fresh bud for this one I find it works well aswell. I use the leaf for this and for some this knocks them right out and for others they say "no I can do this all day" . So it again will depend on you and the bud you use in the mix. Carboxylation seems to be the key here so work with that.
You can just make cookies and eat them aswell the more you injest the sleepier you should become.
I find that anyway you can find to eat cannabis is usually the way it will induce sleep and top that with your growing technics and you should be golden.Tincture is another one but again it will depend on the cannabis used and of-course your own body,There are also canna caps caps full of carboxiated cannabis which again you can make yourself . I left a post somewhere here in this forum about how to make them lol..peace out Headband707

I also put up a post on "Which cannabis does what" for that type of info

that is correct the more you let the thc mature the sleepier it gets
 

Honkytonk

Member
I dont find sufficient evidence in most of the stuff posted. A lot more research needs to be done. And by gauging my Trichs, my harvest is to MY optimal quality. And thats all that matters.

Awesome.

But if this new information is coming out, of course we want to know details. A lot of what us growers know about this, was from Ed's Bible, and older books.
SCF

Maybe Sam volunteers some information if there's any discernable (visual) difference of trichomes from pure THC, THC:CDB and pure CBD plants?
And if trichs turning amber has anything to do with the levels of CBD at all and if a late harvest changes the THC:CBD ratio in favour of CBD.
 
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