What's new
  • Please note members who been with us for more than 10 years have been upgraded to "Veteran" status and will receive exclusive benefits. If you wish to find out more about this or support IcMag and get same benefits, check this thread here.
  • Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!

New Greenhouse and operational advice with employees

Mengsk

Active member
Ibechillin I have no intention to argue. You sound like you have experience. My point, however philosophical or economic or 'could not be more wrong' it may sound to you is that it is all connected.

I'm trying to keep this short, but in your same line of thinking (as in your position isn't likely to change) with the cost and quantity and quality argument, what you are assuming simply is not true. The massive scale product is not on par with or superior to small batch craft cannabis. You are wrong and spreading misinformation if you think that grodan + salt ferts in a dep house every 60 days creates the same product as small farmed organic living soil. It's a joke to assume that you are correct for wanting to pinch every penny. Your argument only works if you don't admit the garbage in = garbage out.

I'll cut to the chase. It becomes awkward at a certain point when you are facing your employee/customer/competition. In a retail job, like if you were to hire me, I might at some point decide to inform you that I can run the entire operation myself. Instead of me that 'could not be more wrong,' I say the same thing to you. Since I was not born a millionaire, and I do not like sales or pressure from salespeople in general, you might imagine this has given me some difficulty in hiring and the workplace in the past. You said no philanthropy. I am saying you have gone way too far in the other direction, so I guess what that means is yes philanthropy. I think that mostly means wealthy people patting themselves on the back for a tax break.

One person owns the land or the title or the business agreement. "Where are you going to work? What are you going to do for money?" Speaking to a retail manager sounding person who is fluent in maximizing profit. There is no winning here. I can't argue or reason with someone who wants to produce acres of greenhouse weed using inexpensive labor. One option is to more or less boycott everything, decide to grow my own food and cannabis and not accept your job because it sucks for human civil rights. Now what is the next step - eviction because I can't produce as many pounds of weed on my land as your greenhouse operation? I'm trying to connect the dots here. It kind of just sounds bitter or arrogant as though I'm an odd ball, but I don't really feel that way.

Your very definition of "profit," or "success," or "production," goes against what I want to see happen in my area. By emphasizing lowest pay for human labor and mixing it with cannabis you are ruining everything. You are trying to turn everything into money, currency for yourself. If I prioritize the plant, or medicine for patients, truly, that would mean in theory there is no profit for any investor ever. I feel like I'm usually ranting about one issue or another but I've had this same kind of clash or frustration in other jobs/industries. If I show a doctor or group of doctors that I can replace them entirely by myself (I said show rather than tell because it isn't really my intention to do so, or to sound arrogant), now I don't have a very good chance of being accepted or promoted by those doctors if they feel threatened or don't like me. If I start telling your greenhouse employees and customers that the quality, attention, and care of my product simply does not compare to what they see as currently available then you also probably aren't going to want me around. I would likely be telling you that your methods are inferior specifically that you are spending too little money/effort on inputs and human labor and expecting too much profit. If quality is my number one concern, and you are operating at an industrial scale to minimize cost, then in this real world (or theoretically I'm not sure which is more accurate) the quality of my product approaches one, or the cost approaches infinity relative to yours.

An ironic thing about the 'economy of scale' is that you will be dealing with much larger more impactful budgets and affecting employees' lives significantly. Meaning million dollar loans or bills or accounts and payroll, all while stating that your "costs" are lower than anyone else. You might be employing people who have families so they can put food on the table but you are also separating them from their families for at least 40 hours each week and asking them to do that for the least amount of money possible before they quit. Meanwhile I can operate as one person for like $5-10k a year as a total budget, no matter how much I produce, and that is considered "high cost." I don't want to buy as many trays and rockwool cubes and clones as I can possibly fit, I reject that idea. I'd rather grow tropical fruit and give some away. It is false and unrealistic to argue that you are producing high quality anything when your goal is to minimize employee pay and maximize profit. They are diametrically opposed and any attempt to convince people otherwise is purely a sales tactic. If you are allowed to say your pot costs $0.50/pound (meaning that one investor is telling another this is $999.50/$1000 profit margin) then I am allowed to say mine costs an infinite amount, both are equally reasonable or make just about as much sense in this looney tunes market.
 
Last edited:

Ibechillin

Masochist Educator
No intentions on an argument Mengsk, just conversation sharing perspectives. I think you misunderstood a few things that i wrote is all.

When i referred to yield and quality in post #57 i was talking about nutritional balance being the key to increasing both simultaneously. If you dont understand nutrient interaction and soil science for the crop your growing, or really know what is in the soil/amendments/nutrients/salts you are using, your just putting your trust blindly into the companies/products your using and winging it. This holds true growing any plant in any medium/style.

I never said anything about grodan and salts being equal to or superior vs organic living soil, thats a decision left for the customer to decide. Prime example as well of everyone having their own preferences...be it formed from education or ignorance/naivety :laughing:.

In reference to lower costs and increasing quality, its as simple as buying your supplies in bulk, cost goes down considerably and quality stays consistent...5lb kelp meal vs the 50lb bag difference...

Never said anything about slave laboring employees, i actually suggested the polar opposite of being an owner operator working double time hours with automated watering instead of hiring labor...

I think your thinking about this too personally Mengsk, and with not enough real world experience/education/understanding of the logistics involved to be participating in the discussion. Licensed marijuana cultivation/sales is a branch of the state governments with intent to be commercialized meaning: focus is profit/tax revenue. The expenses to get licensed, permitted and operating alone are well beyond the average persons means, this is no coincidence.
 

Mengsk

Active member
Tax laws are part of the problem. The spectrum in theory is (or in reality lies somewhere in between) one one hand using part of my effort/donation/contribution to support the betterment of a developing society like new roads and clean water and I suppose teachers police officers firemen etc. On the other hand is the more cynical view that any tax money I give is just going into a pocket of another person - whether they spend it on their child's tuition or a vacation is a mystery to me. So in the first scenario I can work with taxes, but in the second I don't want to pay any. And what happens in capitalism is in practical real world terms all of the tax burden is shifted to the working poor, 100%. What is written off or recorded as 1% tax to someone means nothing in their everyday life while 33% income tax + 8.8% sales tax + property tax + bridge toll + living expenses + bills adds up to just about everything for most people, or many people, perhaps who a capitalist would call 'poor.'

Here's another way to look at it. There is no gold backing up the US dollar anymore. Just for the sake of this discussion we'll pick cannabis. It doesn't have to be the only or prime example. It can be any crop, it doesn't have to be the most expensive crop, that kind of detracts from the argument although it highlights the argument quite well. If the price of cannabis (like as a commodity similar to corn or wheat, whatever) is valued at $0, then the value of the US dollar approaches 0. There is a downstream here I am trying to shed light on though I'm not an economist. If you value food and produce near $0, even if it works out that way on your paper, that's pretty much it you have bottomed out the economy. With population growth and urban influx, each suburban acre is likely to have 4x the population on average in 20 years (not meant to be accurate just a guess).

So wherever you live unless it's in a rural area expect 4x the people living there in 20 years. And whether that means you are supposed to shrink your space by 75% or pay more and do more work to support these 4x as many people, I really am not sure. Part of me feels like I was here first and I don't owe anyone anything especially newcomers, though I understand that doesn't sound very diplomatic. These factors together make me worried that the powers that be will deem just about any residential lot suitable for excavation and replacement with condominiums apartments and strip malls. I'd consider myself a flexible person but it isn't right, it isn't acceptable, it isn't what I expected to have each generation be displaced or pushed out or moved or evicted not once but several times. Eviction and shuffling people around is another tactic to trick manipulate and keep people poor, I digress. Wealthy families don't have the stresses of the poor and it has everything to do with circumstance and class separation, nothing to do with intelligence or ability or aptitude or motivation. Any person in our capitalist system possessing wealth seems most likely interested in keeping it for their own family which by definition is at odds with the notion of an egalitarian society or equal rights for each person. You or your parents worked their whole life to get a home and are immediately told it's either worthless or time to do it all again because uncle sam or the bank says so. It's all of these things, population growth, taxes, inflation, value of labor, value of a dollar, etc.

I think it becomes an issue because you affect the surrounding market. I more or less believe that wealthy people get rich on the backs of others. Occasionally it may happen morally or favorably but many times there are bitter or unhappy 'capitalized' people on the other end of your financial gain. Even if I do not want this to affect me, say I could not care less or have no dog in the race, that might be my preference. But that isn't true, it does affect me even if I am not one of your workers. You are placing the financial burden of your gain or wealth on the backs of more people than just those you hire. Even someone you want out of the loop is directly affected by your actions. It's nice that you have a public thread, because I sound like the exact person you would not want at your board meeting, press conference, job interview, etc. At the very least you might know and understand your objectors, how and why. If it was a sustainable food farm with cannabis and lodging that would be a different story.
 
Last edited:

Mengsk

Active member
Just because I don't have experience meaning I'm not old enough or have not worked in manufacturing industry (which is now deemed to replace food production) has no bearing in my opinion. It is the same thing. I may not be a former Toyota employee claiming to up all your efficiency, but I have some understanding of what is happening. It does not change my perception regarding the scale and economics of these grow operations. A person can always be told it's beyond them, too expensive or too complicated or bigger than one person. All of that corporate shill speak is much more than a few sayings, I think people get so ingrained into it that they believe it like the bible. By the time someone is driven so heavily by that capitalist motive, it can be difficult to see eye to eye like you are different people or speak different languages. I'm serious it's like you believe something or are trying to explain it to me or tell me I'm wrong, to no avail. I disagree I don't really accept your definitions, any law or code or rule or experience you cite is nearly irrelevant because our motives, points of view, and possibly life experiences up until this point are and have been so different. It's not for the better, the retail business person is not superior, although I think part of that training teaches you to treat or think of your employees as subordinates or inferior. Even if I kind of stick out like a sore thumb in this thread my rants mean little compared to the mess that's already taken place if you look outside.
 

Smith111

Member
This is about money for some people which unfortunately makes it about money for everyone else. You are asking open source for very basic advice, and at the same time experienced technical consulting advice, for free online. Then you say 'oh no I don't need this advice,' and 'I have farmed an acre solo.' Now without making any judgement, before I was going to say you sound like a manager at Best Buy or UPS. Inevitably you are stepping on someone's toes. I was thinking about how to write a friendly, helpful response, where I even offer up my intellect and/or services. But in this very thread you have advice "not to hire growers." So you want a manufacturing team, low cost, high turnaround.

Backyard growers populate this message board. When you say "I want a 10,000 sq. ft greenhouse," you are also saying hey 1000 people who grow, get lost, also I want you to buy product from me now. When you design a plan to maximize output, you are minimizing value. Value of your product among other things. I believe some of you have a skewed perception of the value of human life, human labor, and time. It isn't to be decided by a rigid form letter SOP how many hours each person works or what they are paid. If a "home built" or "small" "DIY" hoop/greenhouse can be set up for $1 per square foot, why is that not in your budget? I will build one for me but not for you. And at the same time it doesn't look like you are interested in a three or four figure budget, you insist on five or six figures at least and acres of production from each person (also not you).

Overwork, overworking people, overexpectations, placing such high demands on the land and employees (humans, people). Overuse of resources (just like wound up or high stress people, the desire to focus on time and product yield as metrics of .. anything, growth and profit for example). If one person injects steroids in the gym everyday I don't get too bent out of shape, that is their choice. But when growth hormone confined dairy farms, have turned into marijuana greenhouse operations, on your front doorstep, it is a cause for alarm to say the least.

I can only phrase this so many ways. Being in a stress driven or power hungry race is not the way to live, it takes a toll on you and those around you. Nor is driving your workforce to "maximum potential" or convincing anyone this is the next retail warehouse job. At what level do you expect to separate the income tiers? In other words how much of this very important $ goes to each of the people on your team or should I say in your scheme? Are you going to set knowledge or intelligence limits in your hiring criteria? Not to sound rude but civil rights, human health and safety are all important.

Not to rant, coming full circle the only people who are going to work in this environment or be available for hire you have already selected for: non-grower manufacturing jobs. To be very clear, this is lowest cost at/as the bottom line. Plain as day the absolute goal is to make the cheapest product and pay employees the least, with highest fastest turnover possible. And highest markup for profit. Here you should look at compassionate caregiving or the caregivers for medical patients model, like prop 215. Have your presentation, metrics, and pros/cons all lined up side by side, for the nature and goals of compassionate medical caregiving. Now compare/contrast to Dutch greenhouse sigma6 model. Are there any similarities, differences, anything else you notice?

Starting to shift subject, were I to offer my consulting services (see the comment about "do not hire growers"), my business outline or SOP would be fairly self sufficient. The catch 22 here is that, what you want to copy and use for yourself, can easily become a two way street. No consultant will run the business for you. You are on here asking for free advice, but the business is about money. So when you hire someone to grow for you, the only connection is money. Neither one of you needs each other, except for a financial arrangement. I am sure you know this well as a businessperson.

Unexpected events like theft have happened. Not entirely surprising when you are talking about turning over commercial weed $$ every 60 days and hiring manufacturing greenhouse workers. Side note here - the quality suffers when your business model is set up on paying the minimum amount in labor to employees. Say mold takes a crop. Now are you looking into insurance or more investors? Both of those raise the cost. And both raise the cost in a different way than paying employees more or hiring more people. Hiring security can change the dynamic or atmosphere if you will. But I don't think most grows these days have or need armed security. A security camera with night lights could be enough of a deterrent.

On one hand people can list the pros or the how to of efficient large scale growing. But this site is a perfect place to see who is being affected by large scale grows. You are not disconnected from everyone else because you "green rush" to grow as much as fast as you possibly can. You are actively decimating the market and many non-cannabis related markets and areas in the process. All of that boof weed is not going back to Iowa where the steel came from. Just because a law passed and some realtor will sell you a million pound per year farming permit, does not make it ok or moral or right or just to set up shop that way. I do not know the real world real time demand or consumption rate for everyone and whether places move it all in exchange for currency or sit on tons of frozen product they aren't selling for months or years although I think that is the kind of info a rec market person would be interested in.

I oppose factory work including greenhouse factory work. Look into a model that provides cannabis (and food) with zero carbon footprint, zero reliance on petroleum fuel. Think about expanding your horizons a bit. What I mean is if you plan to have so few employees then you'll need to pay each one more to manage the land. Think about hiring 20-50 people to do the work instead of 3 or 5. Instead of getting pissed and firing the kid for not following SOP, take a chill pill and let them do something else or stick around to see how it did or did not work so they know in the future. Don't treat individuals as pawns or disposable, think about each one like you may see them again one day. The world is big and you can always lose/find people in the madness but it's also getting smaller at the same time. At this point we are both adults, it seems like you might push ahead with your plan and find a manager, team leaders, a processor, a trimmer, a distributor, you have your own dispensary, etc.

What would your role or rather name be for a family farmer, or owner operator? Not in an offensive or abrasive way but there are at least a couple posts on this board to the effect of 'oh don't mind me and my million/billion dollar operation, no worries.' And the posters, with no elevation intended regarding info sharing but people who do not post their face or identity, and this is happening right in our backyard. Criminals who might go to jail, this has been meaning it is the norm (until now). Very different from some posts about a company. Well if a person is a corporation then the corporations should speak like people when spoken to and asked questions. That is my take on it. At some point yes I do mind, I mind a lot actually. People actually should be vetted, as in once again not to elevate or sound frightening but more people should be involved in this conversation at once, shake hands pat down check ID talk in public, whatever. Even the most notorious used car salesmen operate right in broad daylight, so this uncomfortable task of cannabis or even "pushing dope" has changed shape. Political figures are in the media, look at ht magazine.

Earlier you said you farmed an acre. How do you feel about one person farming an acre now, should they be able to or have the right to? Is it totally fair game, or plan to shut them down with the largest greenhouse ever? If California puts up more cannabis greenhouses, what is happening to the acreage of edible food production in the state? If people stop growing food because they can switch to weed in the largest food producing state, that will have consequences. What is the market share for people able and willing to help out a friend or two rather than deal with the dispensary expense?


Wow, so much ignorance. I only have a few hours a week to myself these days, and I wasted valuable time reading this...... Fairness isn't something I am worried about when opening up a business. Save that for somebody that doesn't want to operate in a legal state, with regulations, taxes, fees in a capitalist system with competition. WAKE UP DUDE!
 

Smith111

Member
For the record Mengsk......

The answer to making money, isn't exploiting others. The answer to making money is providing a need for your customers at a competitive price. If others can't compete, that is their short coming.
 

CrushnYuba

Well-known member
First, i want to say I'm not happy about all these new investment grows. For one, it ruins our way of life because it puts the mom n pops out of business. It puts money in investors pockets instead of our community. Second, allot of these investment grows are doomed to fail. Also, we don't really even need more weed. We are growing too much and its killing our market.
That said, most of these investment grows will fail. These guys have to go out buy land, get the most gucci setups for hundreds of thousands, do licensing. That will add up to millions. They need to pay hella overhead and taxes.. And homie needs to pay back his investors and make them profit!
I would never put my energy into something like that, but if Smith wants to, more power to him.

I have no investors or partners. Just labor i need pay for. My greenhouses are as efficient as they get and cost peanuts to put up. Will produce the same weed at a wayyy lower cost. I don't have gutter connected greenhouses. Why would i. Long, low, separate tunnels solves all the problems that gutter connected greenhouses solve with insane roof vents and multiple curtain systems. I love to geek out on that stuff but I'd never put my money into it. The most expensive gutter connected setup in the world isn't going to be more efficient to heat, or stay cooler in the hot months, or do anything different.

I don't have 20 acres of canopy but i got more then smith will probably start with or expand to...it's all mine. My margins are damn slim. God bless these investor grows
 

Ibechillin

Masochist Educator
94-97% of licensed cannabis startups fail in the first 18 months, cutting cost and consistency are the key to survive. One of the biggest hurdles is you cant deduct business expenses.
 

jidoka

Active member
You really need your cost per pound under $300. That allows you enough margin to reinvest and cut cost more. Smesh that competition now while it is easy
 

Ibechillin

Masochist Educator
I read a producer claiming cost of production per lb at ~$20 outdoors, greenhouse production could be done for similar. Can make good use of solar energy to offset some power costs.
 
Last edited:

Ibechillin

Masochist Educator
Speaking of not being able to deduct expenses, there are still alot of rebate and cash incentives for using lower wattage 600w instead of 1k led lights and renewable energy instead of main grid power.

I found a great article on some of the sterilization equipment being ran on large scale operations. The one that claims it takes buds that failed testing and makes them pass peaked my interest alot...

https://www.marijuanaventure.com/mold-reducing-technologies/
 

CrushnYuba

Well-known member
Speaking of not being able to deduct expenses, there are still alot of rebate and cash incentives for using lower wattage 600w instead of 1k led lights and renewable energy instead of main grid power.

Solar for growing is just a hoax. When the sun is shining, you got sun on your plants in a greenhouse! Why try to convert that energy into electricity, store it in batteries, and then put into your plants. Losing efficiency every step. Do you know what a Solar system would look like that it's capable of powering even 10 hid lights? The only reason you would even need hid lighting is because the sun ain't shining. Then where doo you get solar from? Solar energy cost more then the most expensive grid power. Period. Don't even get me started on California grid tie.

Im saying this with experience. My greenhouses are off grid. I use Solar for the small stuff, but when something big power kicks on like hid lighting, my solar system tells a diesel gen set to start to power that stuff. I hardly use hid. I use tiny 9w led spot lights at the top of my greenhouse to keep plants awake.

The mater what, solar don't pay. I only do it because i don't have the option of grid power.
 

Ibechillin

Masochist Educator
CrushnYuba you misunderstand, im not reccomending to store solar power in batteries for lights. Plenty of places to put solar panels other than on a greenhouse as well instead of "converting that energy, losing efficiency every step". Im not suggesting to install and use an isolated off grid solar system like you do either, but a grid tied system that pulls main power as needed to reduce power costs some, similar to how your generator compensates. There are power companies that offer clean energy generated from solar, windmill etc instead of a power plant that can be used for main power to be totally green for similar rates. Maybe not near Yuba, but a licensed producer in San Francisco claimed only a 1 cent per kwh increase switching to CleanPowerSF in an article from marijuana venture published 8/13/2018.

Link to article:
https://www.marijuanaventure.com/rebates-and-renewable-energy/

Gotta look at things over a 10 year span. The world is becoming more and more green, it looks good in marketing as well.
 
Last edited:

CrushnYuba

Well-known member
I'm not sure what you are talking about is a reality in this area. Add far as i know, we just have pg&e and they don't buy power at anywhere need the rates they charge for it. California electricity it's the most expensive in the country. Last bill i looked at was over 40 cents a kw. Commercial and agriculture power is not as bad. Not sure if Cannabis qualifies for ag power.

Cannabis farming is so volitile, it's hard to look 10 years down the road.
 

Mengsk

Active member
I had a moment where I thought what is going to happen to all of the jobs for just about everyone once robots replace us? Factories mega farms and what not? You pick jobs away one by one and there's a point where it looks like there is a decline in employment opportunities, something like that. The future is not certain. Looking around, it seems like there's always construction. As in build a big concrete slab and structure that could be an office space or warehouse or something, first. Like a commercial property that costs millions to build. Then, after that is done, fill the thing up with little plants and stuff. And a maximum amount of special equipment, what ever is in the budget. And what if the investors are tobacco and alcohol, could be just setting up shop because it is legal and then build and buy dispensaries anywhere to sell the stuff? That is just a different setup from residential space or owning a farm or locally produced. It is sad to think of the consequences for this interstate commerce, what you call capitalism, life is not fair etc. While I support using the sun and conserving natural resources ideally, the fact is residential power cost here is too high to turn a profit growing. A large investor facility has lower power cost most likely which leverages or capitalizes an advantage. In other words to operate as a business you lower one party's costs or bills on everything by 90% while giving the keys to 10 or 100 times the production. The flip side to that, what you say isn't fair, is that one owner has to pay ten times as much for every single thing at the counter, in order for the large business to stay competitive in its own market. You say capitalism is about making money not fair, without the tax break profit would not be there. That supports a money = power to decide what other people do with their time way of thinking. If someone worked for minimum wage since they were a teenager and sees cannabis legalization, you have a supervisor and make $15 an hour, instead of just having your own place or business and making $15 an hour, then it doesn't feel like anything legalized instead working for the police. And it does not feel like the same people who voted or made it happen by being there when it was not the same. I don't want to make any claims but you are speaking about capitalism as if it is a good thing, to someone or maybe people potentially at the bottom of the totem pole socioeconomic financially speaking.
 
Last edited:

CrushnYuba

Well-known member
I didn't realize that cannabis qualifies for ag power. That's actually kind of messed up. I need to pay 40 cents + a kw for my home power but llicenced ganja gets ag?
The point of ag power is for real farming. It allows us to grow food at a reasonable cost. Not some warehouse to produce ganja. Warehouse growing is such a resource drain it should be discouraged.

I have 2 sets off lights in my greenhouse. led spotlights to just keep plants awake which is about 9 sq ft per watt. And i have hids. I figured out my cost for diesel fuel to be about 14 cent per kwh. There is only 2-3 months out of the year that i actually had to use those hid's much, so i decided to just skip the 1 run a year.
I feel like we should be encouraging greenhouse production and encouraging growers to skip that single mid winter run. We can grow enough weed in that 9 months to make it through the 3 months we can't harvest without hid.

Hid lighting is not agriculture. It's a resource waste. We don't use hid for any other crop because no other crop fetches $ like weed. Why give weed the power break.
 

Latest posts

Latest posts

Top