I have perpetual trouble getting plants started in Coco

dunkydunk · May 11, 2015

I use H&G nutes, full compliment. I used to use Canna nutes, but encountered the same problems.

I use either Canna Coco bricks, or Botanicare. DTW.

I clone in Rockwool and/or directly in coco.

Tap water is 120 ppm, charcoal filtered.

I've tried starting feed at everything from 300 to 500 ppm. pH 5.8 - 6.0. H&G says 5.8 to 6.3 is allowed.

Lighting is t5 fluorescents, 8 tube bank, with 4 tubes on, 24" from plants. 18/6 cycle.

I've tried both wet/dry cycles and daily feeding.

It seems that no matter what I do, the plants droop, yellow, curl, sometimes they don't even like to be transplanted into the coco at all, but most problems appear within a couple days. Ppms spike to 600+, and pH runoff is 6.5. I know everyone says pH runoff doesn't matter, but...

I grow two varieties: OG Kush and Maple Haze. They both have the same problems, but the OG seems to be the first to turn south.

Any help is appreciated. If this post is inappropriate here, I'll remove it. I thought it best to go straight to Coco growers. I'm not a new grower, but this problem has been dogging me for awhile. Once i get the plants strong enough to flower, things go pretty well. I feel like I'm missing something simple.

touringfunkband · May 11, 2015

Looks like they are getting fried. How are your PPM/PH meters? Have you calibrated them recently? My first response would be that your coco is full of salt. I've never used bricked coco before, are you rinsing well enough? Have you tried Canna Coco from a bag and not the bricked coco? The only problem I've ever had with Canna Coco and seedlings was due to not running a strong enough mix of A + B from early on, but never anything like this. It definitely looks like salt content is killing them or a combination of salt and heat.

dunkydunk · May 11, 2015

touringfunkband said:
Looks like they are getting fried. How are your PPM/PH meters? Have you calibrated them recently? My first response would be that your coco is full of salt. I've never used bricked coco before, are you rinsing well enough? Have you tried Canna Coco from a bag and not the bricked coco? The only problem I've ever had with Canna Coco and seedlings was due to not running a strong enough mix of A + B from early on, but never anything like this. It definitely looks like salt content is killing them or a combination of salt and heat.

Thanks. I've done run-throughs with the bricked cocos, and the numbers are low, like 90 ppm, if I remember correctly, for both Canna and Botanicare. Heat isn't an issue, mid 70's, steady as a rock.

Too much nute too fast could easily be the problem. It seems like everything I read has folks feeding right away, where it seems like I need to practically starve my babies. Just trying to compare notes, I guess.

stevewinthrop · May 11, 2015

Some people run hungry strains that don't mind full strength fertilizer. I don't think that most people do though. I use half strength KISS until they're root systems are established then I usually go up to 2/3 on most strains, only feed full strength if they look like they need it. Would rather them be slightly underfed but healthy than burned and stalled for a week.

But those plants look like they're getting no nitrogen. You sure your pH pen is working good? Might be lockout.

dunkydunk · May 11, 2015

stevewinthrop said:
Some people run hungry strains that don't mind full strength fertilizer. I don't think that most people do though. I use half strength KISS until they're root systems are established then I usually go up to 2/3 on most strains, only feed full strength if they look like they need it. Would rather them be slightly underfed but healthy than burned and stalled for a week.

But those plants look like they're getting no nitrogen. You sure your pH pen is working good? Might be lockout.

I have a BlueLab combo meter, but goddamn if that thing hasn't been fickle of late. Really hard to keep calibrated. The pH pen will rise after 10 minutes turned on, and have to be calibrated again. I've bought replacement pens, but they display the same behavior. Do the base units go bad? Do the EC wands fail?

stevewinthrop · May 11, 2015

Not sure. But looks like you may have had too much food, got lockout and then fed too little? Because some plants have what looks like a nitrogen deficiency, and some look very burnt.

dunkydunk · May 11, 2015

EDIT: 2/3rds of nute regiment is what works best for me in flower. In Veg, I can't seem to get it right.

resinryder · May 12, 2015

Never had a problem. I use canna coco and coco chips at a 50/50 mix and feed 1.0ec as soon as they are transplanted. I use FloraNova, 1ml floralicious plus/gallon and a little calmag to start. Takes about a week for the roots to hit the sides of the 2 gallon pots and off they go.

Scrappy-doo · May 12, 2015

You need to get your ph pen calibrated. Ph is off one way or another. Your plants are showing signs of major deficiency. How do your roots look? That's the only other possibility from the looks of your pics. Either way your plants are not getting the food you're giving them. If you can't keep your meter calibrated you need another one. Sucks I know they're expensive.

whadeezlrg · May 12, 2015

those plants look like they have root rot or root aphids, and look too wet for their current state. either way the symptoms appear the same as bad ph. I'd try canna bagged coco, feed your h&g @ 7ml per gal a&b...don't water immediately after transplant(unless they're transplants from an aero cloner or similar) and let them dry out a bit before the second watering and they're usually good to go for me from there.

I also think the overall health of the clones at transplant would be something I'd lean towards as well.

Snow Crash · May 12, 2015

Looks like you're getting good advice here. Plant is definitely not getting what it needs. There can be a number of reasons for this, but it all starts beneath the surface with the roots.

Your nutrient solution is the first thing to inspect. Plants that size in my garden get an nutrient solution around 0.8ec to 1.0ec. House and Garden also has a number of products in their line. Please tell us which products specifically you are using, and how many ml of each you add to a gallon, and that will help ensure your problem is or isn't with the nutes.

The second thing to look at is watering frequency. If I had to make a suggestion I'd roll with a little more time between feedings. If the roots are struggling then having a little more air access will help them. I'd be watering every 3-4 days if they could stand it without going bone dry and wilting.

Past that there's a few other things it could be. Why are you using a charcoal filter? What's your grow room environment (high/low temperature in a day and RH). How old is the coco and have you tested the runoff EC at any time?

I think if you put in a few more details about what you're doing that will help us figure out what's going wrong.

dunkydunk · May 12, 2015

Snow Crash said:
Looks like you're getting good advice here. Plant is definitely not getting what it needs. There can be a number of reasons for this, but it all starts beneath the surface with the roots.

Your nutrient solution is the first thing to inspect. Plants that size in my garden get an nutrient solution around 0.8ec to 1.0ec. House and Garden also has a number of products in their line. Please tell us which products specifically you are using, and how many ml of each you add to a gallon, and that will help ensure your problem is or isn't with the nutes.

The second thing to look at is watering frequency. If I had to make a suggestion I'd roll with a little more time between feedings. If the roots are struggling then having a little more air access will help them. I'd be watering every 3-4 days if they could stand it without going bone dry and wilting.

Past that there's a few other things it could be. Why are you using a charcoal filter? What's your grow room environment (high/low temperature in a day and RH). How old is the coco and have you tested the runoff EC at any time?

I think if you put in a few more details about what you're doing that will help us figure out what's going wrong.

I think the problem I have with pH is that it is rising in the medium. I set the pH in the reservoir at 5.9 +/-, and the next day it will be 6.2/3. If it's rising in the rez, why wouldn't it be rising in the coco? I use General Hydroponics for pH down, but the veg recipe always rises. When it gets to the bloom recipe, with fewer additives, the rez is much more stable.

The roots look healthy and white at first, but when things go south, the roots are brownish and wilted.

The grow room is stable, mid 70's, with an rh of 60%.

I'm off to work now, I'll have to figure out the per gallon ratios later, as i'm used to mixing 30 or 40 gallons at a time. I'm using the full compliment of H&G nutes, Roots Excel, Amino treatment, etc. I used their calculator as a starting point.

TheCatsMeow · May 12, 2015

foliar feeding might be the only way to get these hungry babies some food.

your PH or PPM meter is not working properly

Crusader Rabbit · May 12, 2015

Until they establish their roots, new plants can't deal with sodden coco. And coco can have pH spikes if it gets too dry.

whadeezlrg · May 12, 2015

gold bottle roots excel? that stuff was giving me issues after it lost it's freshness about 2 months after I bought the big bottle. it smelled funky, and I haven't used it since I noticed the smell last summer....I want to say that I had similar issues, I did lose a legend og and sfv momma iirc. roots excel used to be one of my absolute favorite additive products until they switched up the recipe and made the switch to the gold bottle(I have heard that they will be packaging the same shitty formula in silver bottles again soon)...smell your roots excel, if it smells stale at all then I'd try to stop using it.

Mikell · May 12, 2015

dunkydunk said:
I think the problem I have with pH is that it is rising in the medium. I set the pH in the reservoir at 5.9 +/-, and the next day it will be 6.2/3. If it's rising in the rez, why wouldn't it be rising in the coco? I use General Hydroponics for pH down, but the veg recipe always rises. When it gets to the bloom recipe, with fewer additives, the rez is much more stable.

The roots look healthy and white at first, but when things go south, the roots are brownish and wilted.

The grow room is stable, mid 70's, with an rh of 60%.

I'm off to work now, I'll have to figure out the per gallon ratios later, as i'm used to mixing 30 or 40 gallons at a time. I'm using the full compliment of H&G nutes, Roots Excel, Amino treatment, etc. I used their calculator as a starting point.

Not really going to weigh in, much more experienced people involved already.

What did catch my eye was your first statement here. I noticed much the same with pH. The best explanation I found was A: reservoir pH is much more stable if you break water hardness initially with small amounts of pH down (accounting for nutrient addition), B: it's common to pH too quickly, adding pH down until desired level is reached on the meter (or worse, over shooting and correcting with pH up), but that the actual solution pH will take a few hours or more to stabilize.

Keeping that in mind, I observed less dramatic swings.

resinryder · May 12, 2015

dunkydunk;6943758I grow two varieties: OG Kush and Maple Haze. They both have the same problems said:
I somehow missed this part of your statement yesterday.
I've grown some OG's and found a ph of 5.6 to 5.7 much better for them. They would look deficient and burnt with higher ph's, in my system anyway.
Nearly every other strain through my garden does fine with 5.8 to 6.0 in veg.
I begin at a feed rate of close to 700ppm/1.0EC on my truenchon meter.
I quit using the brick coco you're using after 1 time because of problems similar to the ones you're having, but others use it with no problems whatsoever.
I would also back off the additives until the plants get a bit more established. As it is now they are going from water to god knows what with the additives. That's just my opinion so do with it what you will. Others may disagree. But if you're getting the same shitty results over and over it may be something worth taking a look at.

stoned40yrs · May 12, 2015

resinryder said:
I quit using the brick coco you're using after 1 time because of problems similar to the ones you're having, but others use it with no problems whatsoever.

Try the new brick Canna coco= best stuff ever. Better than Canna in the bags :biggrin:

Granger2 · May 12, 2015

If you're flushing the coco preplant, you'll need to charge it with Ca, Mg, trace mins before planting into it. Also, inoculate the coco with something like Great White or EWC ACT. Good luck. -granger

whadeezlrg · May 12, 2015

that's all a lot of work...since we're on this subject: B'cuzz coco FTW every time, all the time, for all time...many are close, none are quite there.

I have perpetual trouble getting plants started in Coco

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