PLL Club. (if you don't know, now you know)

slowandeasy · Sep 22, 2009

Hydro,
Res temp is the most important part of any hydro setup, IMO. If you cant keep it below 80, dont grow hydro I say. That is battle not worth starting, asking for failure! Not going to waste time on anything until temps come down a tad, if it stays anything above 80 in the cab will make water too warm.

No A/C to turn on or off. Temps are falling outdoors, so that always helps the heat issues. Will get the kinks worked out this week, no rush...wanna do it right the first time! Cab is looking good, just need a lil more weatherstripping and figure out how to drop temps a few degrees. Thats why considering pl-ls, not sure what would yeild better...2 70 watt hps or 220 watt pl-l and which would be hotter?

Hydro-Soil · Sep 22, 2009

slowandeasy said:
Thats why considering pl-ls, not sure what would yeild better...2 70 watt hps or 220 watt pl-l and which would be hotter?

220w of PL-L scrogged will beat 140w of HPS any day. IMO

PL-L will be WAY less heat as well. The Fluoro spectrum of the PL-L's doesn't include the same infra-red that HPS does so you won't get massive heating of your walls like you do now.

slowandeasy · Sep 22, 2009

Ok so how about 330 watt pl-l? Would that work in a 23 1/2w x 14d x 4 ft? Was thinking put 2 on the walls and make an ajustable reflector for 4. Would that be hotter than 2 140 watt hps? Would it work? About how much do you think that would cost? Will thos 55 watt bulbs be too wide? It will be tight, for sure...but would it work? Oh yeah, how is the power consumption on a set up like that? Thanks for the help!!

canna cola · Sep 22, 2009

ScrubNinja said:
Melkor - great work man, really enjoying watching your progress and I know what to expect being right behind ya.

Slowandeasy, last time I heard it discussed, the 55w are the most efficient as in most lumens per watt. The length was mentioned a few posts ago. They will fit nicely I think.

I didn't investigate it too much but it seems to me like my 23w CFL is contributing approx the same heat as the 55w PLL bulb it replaced. So if you had say, 4 x 23w CFLs, I think you would be much cooler replacing them with 2 x 55w PLLs. I would try to keep your HPS too, just ditch the CFLs, depending on how many you have, it's probably those that are pushing the heat too high. They are dreadfully inefficient compared to PLL or HPS.

Heatwise, it got explained to me as this: Every light has a Power Factor ("PF") rating. He said that this is directly in relation to how much wasted heat it puts out in ratio to how much light energy it puts out. If we look at a a HPS it has a PF of 1. This is the top rating! If we look at just about any CFL, it will have a pf of .5 or .6 or so. If we look at PLLs we see they're >.9.

This would explain why I see roughly the same heat from 23w cfl, and 55w pll. I'll try to do some more accurate tests.

Power factor is to do with the mains power supply system for our cities and how the power is measured at the meter versus what is actually consumed by the device (tv, PC, fridge etc).

The power companies want it to be ideally at 1 but that is generally very difficult and most devices are at 0.8 to 0.9, some might go lower.

Wiki power factor info link.

ScrubNinja · Sep 23, 2009

canna cola said:
Power factor is to do with the mains power supply system for our cities and how the power is measured at the meter versus what is actually consumed by the device (tv, PC, fridge etc).

The power companies want it to be ideally at 1 but that is generally very difficult and most devices are at 0.8 to 0.9, some might go lower.

Wiki power factor info link.

Pretty much all household CFLs are .5 or .6. You can get higher ones but they're a specialty item. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about at all with pf, just that's how it was told to me. I was stoned and a few concepts were discussed that day so maybe I got it backwards. I did look it up and I couldn't really find any info on it affecting the heat, and it all referred to the same stuff you mention.

But what I can understand of that, the power companies want you to have high pf devices why? Because a low PF device is using more power. Since power can't just disappear, it would have to be expelled as heat, no?

From the wiki link:

In an electric power system, a load with low power factor draws more current than a load with a high power factor for the same amount of useful power transferred.

Hydro-Soil · Sep 23, 2009

slowandeasy said:
Ok so how about 330 watt pl-l? Would that work in a 23 1/2w x 14d x 4 ft? Was thinking put 2 on the walls and make an ajustable reflector for 4. Would that be hotter than 2 140 watt hps? Would it work? About how much do you think that would cost? Will thos 55 watt bulbs be too wide? It will be tight, for sure...but would it work? Oh yeah, how is the power consumption on a set up like that? Thanks for the help!!

330w would definitely be hotter than 140w HPS. 4 lamps in 14" would pack them pretty tight but it would work. 23.5 inches is just barely wide enough but it will work. I wouldn't bother with lights on the sides of the cab, you'll have more than enough light in there. Any more and you'll need CO2 to take advantage of the extra lumens.

Fulham workhorse 8 ballast is under $40, 3000K lamps are less than $8 each and sockets run 2-3$. Around $100 will get you a 220w setup for your cab.

The power consumption is about the same as a big computer or TV so really nothing to worry about. Couple bucks on your electric bill.

You'll want ventilation or you'll still have heat issues.

slowandeasy · Sep 23, 2009

Hydro,
Figured out the heat problem. Need more intake, those 8x8 darkroom louvers must really restrict the air. Have one on each side and one in the wall between. Dont have enough room to add more, gonna have to use pvc or something. Surprised it has to be done, have a Stanley blower hooked up to it and scrubber. Simple fix. Seems like those 55 w pl l are just a wee bit too tight, think once more intake holes are cut it will help alot.

canna cola · Sep 24, 2009

ScrubNinja said:
Pretty much all household CFLs are .5 or .6. You can get higher ones but they're a specialty item. I don't claim to know what I'm talking about at all with pf, just that's how it was told to me. I was stoned and a few concepts were discussed that day so maybe I got it backwards. I did look it up and I couldn't really find any info on it affecting the heat, and it all referred to the same stuff you mention.

But what I can understand of that, the power companies want you to have high pf devices why? Because a low PF device is using more power. Since power can't just disappear, it would have to be expelled as heat, no?

From the wiki link:

No wuckin furries.

I think the low pf devices use more electricity than what your meter reads and that is what the power companies are worried about, money.
That probably would still mean that the wattage rating listed on a low pf device would be lower than the consumed watts of the device and as you guessed that has to go somewhere so if it doesn't go into output (eg light with CFLs) then it has to go as heat.

Even if the wattage rating on the device is accurate to what it consumes then it just means that the power meter is not reading all of it, I don't think there would be extra heat as in the example above in this case though.

Aerohead · Sep 24, 2009

slowandeasy said:
Hydro,
Res temp is the most important part of any hydro setup, IMO. If you cant keep it below 80, dont grow hydro I say. That is battle not worth starting, asking for failure! Not going to waste time on anything until temps come down a tad, if it stays anything above 80 in the cab will make water too warm.

No A/C to turn on or off. Temps are falling outdoors, so that always helps the heat issues. Will get the kinks worked out this week, no rush...wanna do it right the first time! Cab is looking good, just need a lil more weatherstripping and figure out how to drop temps a few degrees. Thats why considering pl-ls, not sure what would yeild better...2 70 watt hps or 220 watt pl-l and which would be hotter?

This has strayed a little off the PL-L topic but I think it's important to dispell this myth. High res temps aren't desirable but you can still achieve much higher yields in DWC @ 85F than in soil. Contrary to popular belief, it's not the lack of o2 that causes problems, it's the slime algea growth that causes dramatic PH swings. If you can keep a clean dark sump, 85F will slow growth a little but it will still kick the pants off of a soil grow.

Here is a chart to show temp v.s. dissolved o2, still plenty of o2 available @ 30C

Aerohead · Sep 24, 2009

Now to get back on track, here is a few shots of my PL-L club entry, did I mention these lights are really easy to cool?

Here is a shot of how I cool them:

slowandeasy · Sep 24, 2009

Thanks for the chart Aero, you are right it would still beat soil...But 85 imo is wayyyyyyyy to high. Light proofing is very important, but with high res temps and light coming in, you will get what Melkor had going on. The right way to grow is to get your space dialed in, so it is a perfect enviroinment at all times.

Love your little setup Aero. Foggers are great, just produce alot of heat, and will deliver the nute easier. Dont think you will be feeding them as heavy as usual, those roots are absorbing the nutrients in the fog and the water. Good luck, keep up the good work! Exactly how long are your pl l lights set up in your cab? Tight fit, my cab is 23.5 inches wide. Cant believe how easy you guys cool these lights. They def are great for micro grows, and not too expensive. Just not as easy to get everything you need right around the corner. Buds look very nice grown under them, but how is the penetration on them? Personally used to way bigger set ups that grow 2liter bottle sized buds...so want to get the most out of the little space. Thanks!!

Melkor420 · Sep 24, 2009

slowandeasy said:
Hydro,
Res temp is the most important part of any hydro setup, IMO. If you cant keep it below 80, dont grow hydro I say. That is battle not worth starting, asking for failure! Not going to waste time on anything until temps come down a tad, if it stays anything above 80 in the cab will make water too warm.

No A/C to turn on or off. Temps are falling outdoors, so that always helps the heat issues. Will get the kinks worked out this week, no rush...wanna do it right the first time! Cab is looking good, just need a lil more weatherstripping and figure out how to drop temps a few degrees. Thats why considering pl-ls, not sure what would yeild better...2 70 watt hps or 220 watt pl-l and which would be hotter?

I don't know. My fridge is running dwc with the PLLs and the ambient got to be over 90 this summer, inside the case was a degree or two cooler, but I have never checked the sump temp. I have not had any problems with my home made epoxy sump. I think that the plexi helps cool in a way, kind of like a radiator. My next sump is going to incorporate a fogger in the middle, And I think I will run 2 plants, with a lot of fimming. Aerohead had temp problems in his sump, but it was from the fogger alone pretty much, a couple other factors didn't help, but I believe that was the main problem.

slowandeasy · Sep 25, 2009

Melkor,
Not saying that high res temps always end up in failure, but why risk it? If you are going to do something, do it right the first time. This is not my first rodeo. You should have learned the importance of your rez being perfect. Never seen anything like you had in there. Light and heat will both kill your plants over night. If you are doing DWC, you should invest in a pH pen with temperature on it. Small investment, but well worth it. Once you get slimed, your screwed. Some people never do hydro after being slimed. Those foggers put out alot of heat, you guys might need a chiller if your gonna run them. If you can keep your root zone in the low 70's you will have a way better crop than it you run in the 80's for sure. It is not optimal to run high rez temps. try to keep an eye on them, you will thank yourself for it later. Good luck Melkor!

Tilt · Sep 27, 2009

I have some 2g11 base 40w 4100k (freebies) pll that Im putting together a cabinet with until I can upgrade. Im going vertical in tubes fan cooled directly into the sog canopy

Melkor420 · Oct 1, 2009

OMJebus · Oct 7, 2009

Nice BUDS broski!!

ScrubNinja · Oct 7, 2009

Uh oh... melkor is unregistered :/ Hope things are okay buddy

OMJebus · Oct 7, 2009

wow that happened in the last hour or two, shit..... hope all is well on his end!

OMJebus · Oct 7, 2009

Here are some links to thread's about PL-L's

Info:

Remote CFL Ballasts....aka PL-L's

PL-L reflector shapes

The ultimate beginner's guide to PC FANS!

How To: Wiring PC/Axial fans to 12v DC adapter

Grows:

"the high-pod" - inefectualize

Aeroponic PC case scrog - Aerohead

PC grow 100w pll, bubbler - D.I.trY

220w pl-l coco scrog cupboard - ScrubNinja

C-99 under 220w of PL-L CFL lamps - Hydro-Soil

Mini Fridge Grow - Melkor420

Wild sativas under 110w PL-L - jrw

fsaebud's 440W PL-L coc grow *finished* - fsaebud

The "Tony Danza" - 440 Watt PL-L - Low Pressure Aeroponic - Cabinet Build and Grow - DonkeyPunch

Micro T5 2x55w 12/12 seed-harvest Grow - Eliyaz

first grow, my take on the "high pod", lessons, observations, and a couple questions. - qatsi

If I left out your grow, its either because .1 I didn't know it was PL-L/I missed it, or 2. It wasn't good enough (jk

) most likely it will be #1.

If anyone links more info threads ill add to the list! Hope this helps someone!

PL-L's Rock!

ScrubNinja · Oct 7, 2009

Great list man. You should compile it on the first page somewhere.

Edit: Ah, I see what's goin' on. Nothing gets past me. As you were!

PLL Club. (if you don't know, now you know)

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