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F1 frequencies reversed P1 donors.

farmerlion

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Hello, I'm trying to answer some curiosities I have about P1 donor reversals. I know the number of plants being used should be much larger for a real in depth study. The parental plants being used are.

Bangi Haze f29 reversed x Purple Nepjam f6 fem.

Purple Nepjam f6 reversed x Bangi Haze f29 fem.

I want to see which parental traits are past. The difference in phenotypic expressions, chemotypes and vigor of growth.
These plants will be grown in 45 gallon grow bags. To do more than one of each. I will have to double plant in the 45's.

Organic soil with Leonardite, Icelandic kelp, worm castings and chicken poop. I can break down soil mixtures later. I will be germinating seeds in a week or two. I'm also comparing the f3 and f4 difference of Ace seeds auto flowering plants.

Auto Malawi x Northern lights f3 fem.

Auto Malawi x Northern lights f4 fem.

I hope some of you will find this interesting and helpful.
:tiphat: Peace
 

farmerlion

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I will post pictures of greenhouse when I have my laptop. I suck at using cell phones to get pictures. I have threads at the Ace seeds forum, growing in greenhouses sections and the State x State section in North Dakota.
Please stop and visit to see the rest of the 2018 line up.
Peace
 

farmerlion

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The weather is supposed to be in the 80's for the weekend. I will germinate seeds in the grow bags if work allows me to. I'm still struggling with the selection of genetics. I have 3 I can't make up my mind on. Either way I'm very excited about the lineup. Have a great weekend. Peace
 

farmerlion

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So it begins.

So it begins.

Hello all, today I took the seeds out of the deep freeze of hibernation. They are getting soaked in Humic Source Plus and water. I'm not going to fully germinate them now. I will warm and rehydrate them until morning and place in main grow bags.


45 gallon root pouch grow bags with two plugs removed for potting soil. I'm not a big fan of transplanting and possible stresses to seedlings. For semi and auto flowering genetics. It is better to plant strait into main grow bags.


35 gallon grow bag with a single plug filled with potting soil for seeds.


Seeds being warmed and hydrated in vitamin containers. Each has it's own color and day of the week to keep them separated.


The bags are all labeled and waiting for the seeds in the morning. If it cools down I will start the heater to keep them in a good environment for seedlings.

I will be taking special interest in three strains for this season and project.

#1 NepJam f6 reversed x Bangi Haze f29 fem.
Bangi Haze f29 reversed x NepJam f6 fem.

#2 Auto Malawi x Northern Lights f3 fem.
Auto Malawi x Northern Lights f4 fem.

#3 Purple PCK x Panama f1 fem.
Green PCK x Panama f1 fem.

In these three separate tests/studies. I will be taking notes on many growth aspects. (vigor, phenotype variables, chemotypes and traits progressions).
If anyone has any questions during this grow. Please post it or PM me. This is purely to gain understanding and satisfy my own curiosities. There are many things to be learned. Test #1 has the most interest for me personally. The traits of genotypes, phenotypes and chemotypes is most appealing to me.

One aspect of this grow that won't be as obvious is the soil recycling. I'm trying to come up with a process that cuts soil expenses without sacrificing soil quality. The amendments I'm using this year should or could take me closer to this goal.
I'm using Leonardite in liquid and slow release powder form.
I have switched from Alaskan Brands fish emulsion to Neptune's fish and kelp for my main fertilizer. I have also purchased Icelandic kelp in a dry coarse ground form. This will also be a slow release amendment. I use rain water when available and lake water as it is the most available and consistent Ph.

I did decide to double plant two Lebanese plants in a 40 gallon plastic grow tub. This freed up one 35 gallon root pouch grow bag. I have been wanting to run Original Sour Diesel for a while now. I will double plant these two regular seeds in the empty grow bag. If one of them is a male it will be culled.

I'm hoping first that I get a good male from one of the Lebanese plants. If not the seed making efforts will come to one of the two Blueberries from DJ Short. I haven't made seed yet in my greenhouse. It shouldn't be an issue, but until you have done it you don't really know.

Well that's what I have going on this season. This grow is taking place in a 12'w x 20'l x 10'h greenhouse without a blackout system. My goal is to be able to produce seeds for all growers in North Dakota. So novice growers can plant these in their gardens and have a bountiful harvest of great genetics.

I wish you all a happy, safe and productive grow season
Peace :tiphat:
 

farmerlion

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All the girls for this comparison are up. One of my Nepjam f6 reversed x Bangi Haze had a pigtailed tap root. I tried to straighten it out and it snapped. So I gently put it back in the soil anyway. If it hasn't recovered in a day or two. I will germinate another seed. It will just be two weeks behind the other three plants.

Everything else is looking good. I added some plants outside for the summer. 2 Erdpurts, 1 Panama Deep Chunk x PCK, 1 Panama Deep Chunk, 2 original Gorilla Glues, 1 I can't remember at the moment.
Peace
 

Ibechillin

Masochist Educator
I Read An Article Awhile Ago That Might Interest You (or others):

From Dj Short:

"It has been my observation that the females primarily contribute the type of flavor and aroma and the males contribute the amount of flavor and odor."

Im not sure how much validity this claim holds as i am just getting into breeding and my understandings are from research alone, but this gives us kind of a starting point perspective for pollen->female influence.

Also From Dj Short:

"I usually begin with a Sativa female and an Indica male."

I also did a good amount of research on this and his methodology of using an INDICA FEMALE to breed with instead of an INDICA MALE seems to have been (maybe still is?) controversial practice.

I Found This Though From A Credible Source:

From User Blaze at t h c f a r m e r.com:


"Well, I don't think that you could say that a female sativa crossed with a male indica will produce a better hybrid 100% of the time, but in my experience, DJ's statement does seem to hold pretty true.

A lot of the good hybrids I have seen others create and that I have done myself were done with a sativa female and an indica male. I did quite a few crosses using a sativa male, and I got to say none of them were that great."


Again these just give us a general perspective to go off of from other's (most credible ones i could find, though vague) experiences/beliefs, there is a good deal of personal opinion and myth floating around revolving breeding practices.

In The Above Examples My Takeaway Is This:

The sativa Pollen donor plant is giving unfavorable physical traits to the offspring (long flowering times, long internodes, small fluffy buds, stretchy growth habits and thin stems), where using an Indica pollen donor would give us the physical traits that are sought after.

Ill be following along to pay close attention to the PCK x Panama development, too bad you dont have a Panama x PCK cross to comapre with...

The NepJam and Bangi haze clones you reversed, Do you maybe have some pictures of those plants in flower and of their nugs? Same pics for the Green/Purple PCK and Panama for comparisons?

Cannabinoid anaylsis will needs to be done on a large group of F1 offspring plants to get complete scientific proof of change in influence from donor/receiver interaction documented apart from what is physically obvious.

I really appreciate you doing this.
 
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Koondense

Well-known member
Veteran
This thread has my interest, subbed.
A quick note tho, I always thought it's written Female X Male, so the "reversed" should be the "males" ...in the case of the first post, shouldn't it be the opposite, so BH x NJ(reversed) and NJ x BH(reversed)?

Cheers
 

Ibechillin

Masochist Educator
Updated: Thanks for sparking my curiosity on the subject!

From: Does a Male or Female Pass On More genetics to Their Offspring? icmag thread

Link:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=350271

White Fire is a famous cross. Fire Og female x (reversed female) The White. Would it be the same if the other way around? It would be a great test. Natural males are an unknown factor (crap shoot) since they don't grow buds.

One way to test this is to take 2 stable but non related varieties (A and B). Take 2 clones off one female plant from one variety (A) and 2 clones off of another female from the other variety (B). Take 1 clone from each variety and reverse them onto the other variety (A-reversed x B, B-reversed x A). This way we will find out of there is some natural process that is different when DNA is donated via pollen or in the calyx.

It makes absolutely no difference which parent in a cross is male and which is female. The genetic potential of the offspring is the same either way. The only practical difference is the resultant seed size may vary depending on which parent is the female, and this is due to the size of the calyx on the female.

The phenotypes seen in the offspring from any cross or pollination are the result of the dominant alleles inherited from each parent.


Hope this helps. :tiphat:

I've done the double reverse and there was no difference in the offspring phenotypes as expected. The one difference was that seed size from the cross was different due to the maternal parents having considerably different sized calyx.

you can cross two female or cross two males by transforming one to the opposite sex, a transformed female clone to male will express pollen but it is still genetically a female, the same with males they can be transformed to female to make seeds.

Transforming males to a female will also allowing smoking of the male transformed to female expression or lab testing of the cannabinoids and terpenes they can contribute to progeny.

Regardless if the female is Haze or Skunk the f1 hybrids express the same general terpene and Cannabinoids, I have made hundreds and tested them.

There may be sex linked traits but this has not been proven in Cannabis.


Intersexed plants can be male or female. Males that are intersex can make seeds on themselves or on nearby plants.

One last point is plants do not just turn intersex because they have not been pollinated, they are born with the intersex traits, be they XY intersex or intersex traits that require stress of some sort to express the intersex. Both are inherited from intersex parents.

People confuse dominate and recessive genes with what a plant recieves from the parents, but do a prunett square with two palnts that have dominate and recessive genes for the same gene and you will see progeny have a crap shoot on what they receive. Depending on what the parents have Ww X Rr for example in the case of White and Red.

Plant genetics like Cannabis can be confusing as Cannabis is a dioecious obligate outcrosser and is a bit special. (90% of all flowering plants on earth have both sex, the remaining 10 percent have unisexual male and female flowers on the same plant (monoecious species) or male and female flowers on separate plants (dioecious species) they are the minority. Cannabis is one of the minority it is dioecious.
-SamS
 

farmerlion

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Reversal comparrison

Reversal comparrison

Hey all, Sorry I haven't been around in a while. I've been getting my ass kicked at work the last two weeks. While the plants are small and look like every other cannabis plant. I want to show all stages of growth to be evaluated.


These two are the Purple NepJam f6 reversed x Bangi Haze f29 Of the four plants these two are the largest and the smallest. The smaller plant pushed itself out of the soil. I tried to straighten out the pig tailed tap root out to place back in soil. I felt the tap root break about half way down. I decided to place it in the soil anyway. If it died I would replace with another seed. It seems to have healed itself but is behind in growth of the other three.



These two are the Bangi Haze f29 reversed x Purple NepJam f6.
They are all enjoying the recent sunshine. In the coming weeks many observable differences should become more clear.

Koondense, Good to hear from you brother. I have the males listed first for clarification in my notes. Most people do ladies first. I figured anyone reading this would be able to figure out the reversed parental donor is the male.

Both of these crosses come from the same two parental plants not just of the same strain or family. I don't have any pictures of the parental plants as I didn't breed them. I'm only growing out the f1's to answer some of my own questions and curiosities.

Ibechillin, thank you for posting your researched information. This is the exact reason I wanted to do this comparison. When I came across these genetics in the R&D section at ACE Seeds. My wheels were turning instantly. I bought a pack of each right away.

I hope we all can learn a few things, be entertained and enjoy this amazing plant. Peace
 

farmerlion

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Unrelated cool plant

Unrelated cool plant

Hey all, I couldn't resist putting up a picture of this plant. It's a Panama D/C (Deep Chunk), from CannaBioGen. I had it planted outside when it came up through the soil. You could tell it was different right away. The leaf mass exploded out of the shell. Three first leaves and three small true leaves. The meristem is two to three times the girth of other seedlings the same age. The leaves are thicker than normal new growth. I had one of my Blueberries from DJ Short that didn't come up. So I transplanted the Panama D/C into the greenhouse earlier today into the vacant 35 gallon Root Pouch grow bag.
If any of you are curious about it's development. I will have regular updates on my thread at Ace forums or under North Dakota in the State by State here at the mag.


Last season I had a very unique seedling. It came up a dual meristem from a single seed. It was a China Yunnan, one meristem was the green phenotype. The other meristem was the purple phenotype. I documented this plant extensively in my last seasons grow (farmerlions first greenhouse grow). In the Ace seeds forums, about page 5 or 6 by now. It was an incredible plant to experience.
Anyway I just wanted to share this odd little lady with you.
Peace :tiphat:
 

DoubleTripleOG

Chemdog & Kush Lover Extraordinaire
ICMag Donor
Very interesting
Edit: I think DTOG is running a similar situation (parents reversed)

Kinda....lol. Karma has his Headbanger that is Sour D IBL female and his Biker Kush male. I had a killer Karma's OG female that I passed to a guy that in turn hit it with Sour D IBL pollen. So reversed sex of parents and different plants in the same lines Karma used.
 

Cvh

Well-known member
Supermod
This thread has my interest, subbed.
A quick note tho, I always thought it's written Female X Male, so the "reversed" should be the "males" ...in the case of the first post, shouldn't it be the opposite, so BH x NJ(reversed) and NJ x BH(reversed)?

Cheers
I don't want to hijack this thread. But what is the general consensus about this?

Is it written as Female X Male? Or is it Male X Female as written by the OP?
 
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farmerlion

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When the genetics were explained to me by Dubi. He had the female that was reversed listed first for both female plants used in this cross and reverse cross. I have no problem with either order as long as the male is clarified at some point. I prefer the male listed first. When I had papered horses bred. The sire was always listed before the mare. When it comes to dogs, I have mutts. They love me regardless of not being papered.

Anyway to each his own. I just hope to grow these plants out to their full potential.
Peace
 

farmerlion

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May 26th update

May 26th update

Hey all,
Well the girls are still early growth. One of the three in this comparison is a runt. Having a pigtailed tap root pushing itself out of the soil.

This is the Purple NepJam f6 reversed x Bangi Haze f29.

These are the two Bangi Haze f29 reversed x NepJam f6.
So far most of the visible structure is very similar. While just taking a few pictures, I didn't do notes. I will do notes tomorrow sometime. Taking a close look at any growth patterns that are similar and different.

This is a unique but not real rare trifoliate Panama D/C. I had moved her from outside into the greenhouse. At the time a Blueberry from DJ Short hadn't come up. I thought I had an empty bag. After the transplant, hello there...I'm late to this party.
I'm not about to cull a Blueberry. I've had many plants doubled up in 35 gallon grow bags and it works just fine. Actually this will be the first time I've had any plants single planted in this size grow bag. I hope you all have a happy and safe weekend. Peace
 

farmerlion

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I did my notes this morning. Other than the labels marking the bags. The plants look the same physically. Aromas will get stronger as time goes on. While I would like to reverse one of these for a backcross. My goal is an open pollination with a Lebanese male if I get one. If not maybe one of my two Blueberry plants will be a male. There is hundreds of crosses with DJ's Blueberry out there but none in ND. A Blueberry x Lebanese, early start of flowering great aroma and good production. Could be a very interesting phenotypic expression with great northern acclimation. Peace
 

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