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Full Power Single vs Dimmed Double Quantum Boards?

G

GatorGumbo

I'm looking to upgrade my lighting with a main focus on energy efficiency. It seems to me that the best way to go that route would be grow SCROG and use the new HLG V2 QBs and run a ton of them dimmed and close to the canopy.

My area is 8'x4'. I was looking at using the HLG 135w V2 with a minimum footprint of about 2'x2', normally that would mean I need 4 of those lights running full tilt. Would running 8 of them at 50-60% power achieve the same plant results given both scenarios are doing SCROG?
 

Switcher56

Comfortably numb!
Dunno how it works for LEDs but, from an engineering stand point. Throttling to 50-60% power might be good for your power bill and wallet. The lights (in this case) are not operating at their optimum (efficiency vs power ratio). Besides buying an extra 4 units just to throttle them back sounds sort of counter productive to even the simplest layman. :)
 

Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
Yeah you're on the money but if you're dimming quite a bit the penetration might suffer.. id say get 8 and also get a PAR meter and killowatt plug meters for each QB so you can have an accurate idea of whats doing watt ;).. they are amazing lights, im besotted..
 
G

GatorGumbo

Dunno how it works for LEDs but, from an engineering stand point. Throttling to 50-60% power might be good for your power bill and wallet. The lights (in this case) are not operating at their optimum (efficiency vs power ratio). Besides buying an extra 4 units just to throttle them back sounds sort of counter productive to even the simplest layman. :)

It's my understanding that the LEDs become more efficient when throttled down, I'd really like to know if I'm wrong though.

Good call on the Killawatt and PAR meters. I've also been doubting serious canopy penetration when going with a half-watted configuration, but at least when they are low the light is more evenly spread than other options. Really only works best for SCROG, but I could raise their height and intensity if needed.
 
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G

GatorGumbo

After doing some more research on the HLG 135 V2 specifically it seems that it pulls around 160w at the wall. Kind of a deal breaker for me considering they only dim to 45% minimum, to do an almost full sky of boards would be 16-19 boards pulling around 1000w. Their lower wattage and higher wattage boards are all either non-dimmable or V1 LED boards, I was thinking the 135 was the sweet spot for me. It would be interesting to see someone do a vertical farming setup with their 65w, but I'll leave it to them.

My second option is to go the easy route and get 4x Timber 400w Vero27 COBs, I think that would get me right around 800w dimmed but near normal height from plants— and maybe a little less close up. The added bonus is dimming only 4 fixtures instead of having to screwdriver 16-18 driver dimmers.
 

Lost in a SOG

GrassSnakeGenetics
Yeah they do run at 160 on full wack but i was running mine quite happily at 60w..

Yes they do run more efficient when not on full wack but its only for the OCD, if you ran less and higher height at a higher wattage using a PAR meter to watch penetration then i think these hlg v2s will still be a better choice than less timber cobs.. i dont rate cobs now ive moved onto these samsung boards/strips though ive not got any timber lights.

PAR meters are a must in a properly controlled grow.
 

P-NUT

Active member
Veteran
You could also build you own with Samsung strips. It's pretty easy and you'll save a ton of $. Ledgardener has all the info you'll need to build your own.
 
G

GatorGumbo

Yeah they do run at 160 on full wack but i was running mine quite happily at 60w..

Yes they do run more efficient when not on full wack but its only for the OCD, if you ran less and higher height at a higher wattage using a PAR meter to watch penetration then i think these hlg v2s will still be a better choice than less timber cobs.. i dont rate cobs now ive moved onto these samsung boards/strips though ive not got any timber lights.

PAR meters are a must in a properly controlled grow.

How close are you keeping them from the plants at 60w? I worry about tending to light height every 6 hours to keep the plants happy while running right on the edge of height vs intensity. I agree the Timber COBs are behind the Q boards in almost every way except maybe ease of use since they are 100% plug and play.

Doing the Q-Series strips seems like the most promising option at the moment. It raises a ton of questions though because I don't know what drivers I should go with, or which strips exactly for that matter. I know I need a driver that can do 480-500w with dimmable below 45-50% being a huge plus. I'm pretty sure the Meanwell A models only go to 45% minimum.

Here's the Samsung product page for Q strips: https://www.samsung.com/led/lighting/led-modules/ambient-light-module/q-series/

Here's the link to the Q strips I am looking at: https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=LT-QB22A

Timber COB:
4VL Vero29 V7 3500k 4 fixtures - $2,483
1600w max @ ~160 lumen/watt (256,000 lux, 103 lm/$)

Q-Series 80 strips across 4 panels:
LT-QB22A 3500K 19.7w Strip - X80 - $1,960
Drivers - X4 - ~$600
$2,560 w/o frame
1576w max @ ~200 lumen/watt (315,00 lux, 123 lm/$)

Differences:
Q strips DIY have 59,000 more lumens overall
Q strips can easily mix spectrums 3000-5000k
Q strips give 15-20 more lumens per dollar
Q strips cost a couple hundred more initially
Q strips have better spread for low wattage use
Q strips drivers can be run remotely
Timber can be run 10-100% wattage
Timber/HLG panel both easier than from ground up DIY
Timber is plug and play
Timber has nominal spread needing higher minimum height & wattage

So it seems that the Q strips lead by a fair bit, enough to justify the slight initial cost over the Timbers. The only potential downsides are dimmable range and, arguably, light penetration. A big hang up for me is that with a DIY kit the as-of-yet unknown chances of burning the house down increase about 100%, and that's probably the only concern I have over efficiency at the moment. I need to do some research into wiring and drivers.

What would be the best way to wire and what driver should I use for a "panel" of 20 1120x18mm LT-QB22A strips for use with a single dimmable driver? I would be using 2 of the assemblies for an even spread over an 8x4' area.
 
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Koondense

Well-known member
Veteran
Check again for the Q's lm/W, it's important to get numbers at your driver current.
Generally you don't drive them hard but the 200lm/W is not what I would expect when they work at full declared power, more like 160-180lm/W. For example the Vero SE cobs have around 155lm/W @95W/cob.

Also for the record, lux is lumen/m^2, they're not the same.


Cheers
 
G

GatorGumbo

Check again for the Q's lm/W, it's important to get numbers at your driver current.
Generally you don't drive them hard but the 200lm/W is not what I would expect when they work at full declared power, more like 160-180lm/W. For example the Vero SE cobs have around 155lm/W @95W/cob.

Also for the record, lux is lumen/m^2, they're not the same.


Cheers

Thanks for the knowledge, I'm a total noob when it comes to lighting. I've just been piecing things together and reading spec sheets, but I'm way over my head when configuring a high wattage DIY kit. I'm bouncing from COB to Q strips in my mind, with Q strips seemingly a little more pricey. There are a ton of CXB3590 kits out there I could tackle.
 

Noonin NorCal

Active member
Veteran
Im looking at maybe running these in a couple months...

I currently have 2, 1k watt hps Rapter bigger hoods that are inlined over a 8x4 tray, I've had problems with heat before even running them in the winter time.

What and how many of these would you replace for for a 8x4 tray that currently had 2 1k watt hps bulps for flowering

Im talking about quantum boards, id love to try LED's
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Quantum style, you're looking at around 600-700w of strip LED to replace a 1000w HID. Main reason is you're going to skip nearly 300w of Infra-Red HID tech produces. Two 660w lights, with a spectrum close to CMH, and you'll be golden. :)

From what I can tell, the COBs are slightly less expensive and less efficient (as stated previously). So you'll save cash up front for COBs, and pay a bit of extra electric every month to compensate. I also prefer the quantum style due to the thin/fanless heat sinks. I have several cobs with heatsink/fan combos and really dislike them after 6 months. :tiphat:
 

Noonin NorCal

Active member
Veteran
Quantum style, you're looking at around 600-700w of strip LED to replace a 1000w HID. Main reason is you're going to skip nearly 300w of Infra-Red HID tech produces. Two 660w lights, with a spectrum close to CMH, and you'll be golden. :)

From what I can tell, the COBs are slightly less expensive and less efficient (as stated previously). So you'll save cash up front for COBs, and pay a bit of extra electric every month to compensate. I also prefer the quantum style due to the thin/fanless heat sinks. I have several cobs with heatsink/fan combos and really dislike them after 6 months. :tiphat:

Have you tried Maxbloom LED? The price seems pretty reasonable?

I was thinking of getting 2 600w to replace my two 1kwatt hps lights that cover my 4x8 tray...
Maybe get 2 of those red bulbs too, the 90w red flower boosters
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
They look like older generation spectrum lights, which makes me wonder what their flowering spectrum happens to be. I'm not a big fan of blurple.
 

Noonin NorCal

Active member
Veteran
They look like older generation spectrum lights, which makes me wonder what their flowering spectrum happens to be. I'm not a big fan of blurple.

Sorry I'm a noob when it comes to LED, i don't know what blurple means...
Id like some Led that are already built and ready to go.

Can you get quantum boards that are built already? how does it work do you have to make them or what lol.... Sorry I'm just wanting to try something new in my room this coming winter,
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
:) "Blurple" is the purple lighting spectrum which used to be the most popular with LEDs. The blurple spectrum requires at least 35wpsqft, and produces a much leafier flower.

Ready to go, quantum style boards? At slightly under $1/watt, the new Mars Hydro TS line of lights are the least expensive option I would recommend. They use Samsung LM301B chips + 660nm, and are doing quite well with cannabis. Their TS-1000 is 150w, the TSL-2000 and TSW-2000 are 300 watts. 2 TSL-2000's will easily cover a 4x4 tent, while the TSW-2000 works for a 3x3 flowering space.
:tiphat:
 

Noonin NorCal

Active member
Veteran
:) "Blurple" is the purple lighting spectrum which used to be the most popular with LEDs. The blurple spectrum requires at least 35wpsqft, and produces a much leafier flower.

Ready to go, quantum style boards? At slightly under $1/watt, the new Mars Hydro TS line of lights are the least expensive option I would recommend. They use Samsung LM301B chips + 660nm, and are doing quite well with cannabis. Their TS-1000 is 150w, the TSL-2000 and TSW-2000 are 300 watts. 2 TSL-2000's will easily cover a 4x4 tent, while the TSW-2000 works for a 3x3 flowering space.
:tiphat:

Thanks for the help. So I'm guess 4 TSL-2000's then to cover a whole 4x8 tray?
what do you think about adding a couple 2 90w red flower booster light too?
 

MedFaced

Active member
I’ve ran my last and current grow with an hlg quantum board after over a decade of HPS usage and being gifted several leds over the years.

Quantum boards are the 1st I’ve used personally that even come close to an HPS. However, for those HPS converts looking to escape heat issues, they run HOT. 1 watt will create the same amount of heat regardless of the source. My driver gets up to 150f and the heat sinks w driver removed up to around 100f. The benefit with the QB is that one can get very close to efficiency while using less wattage, but the heat is still produced. Keep this in mind as there is no option for air cooled hoods unless you make one. Some people will say keeping a fan on the heatsink and driver helps. This is true that it helps keep the light cool, but the heat is just blown off the light and into your grow space. So make sure you have adequate ventilation and if possible, remove the air directly above your lights. Otherwise you may find yourself still dealing with heat issues.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Thanks for the help. So I'm guess 4 TSL-2000's then to cover a whole 4x8 tray?
what do you think about adding a couple 2 90w red flower booster light too?
Yep, one TSL-2000 per 2x4 space, so 4 in your tent will work great. :) I have no information on the use of the 90w red booster. I know the TS series uses 660nm, so the addition of far-red (730nm) at lights out would be an improvement. :)

As for heat, LEDs put out just about the same amount per watt as HIDs do. The main differences being

#1 you're running fewer watts for the same yield
#2 you're running fewer watts into infra-red production which reduces heat production

So, for the same size space, your LEDs are going to turn fewer watts into heat than the equivalent HID. On top of that, the reduction infra-red means lower cooling costs. :tiphat:
 
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