MPK use in flower

Guest · Sep 22, 2017

I have been looking for some forms of readily available, water soluble sources of P and K for mid to late flower if a deficiency shows.

I know it's not organic right off the bat. If MPK works as well as people seem to claim I can live with a small dose if it's the difference between a so so harvest or a top shelf harvest for a couple indoor plants for myself.

What I'm not sure of is how potentially a light one time dose would affect my soil for the next couple grows. I have about 20 gallons in my pots and another 10 gallons plus that is still out back with worms fat and happy in the container.

I see it for sale and even Kelp4Less has it. Is it that detrimental to my soil it will kill all my micro-organisms ?? It's not going to run off anywhere except the tray.

Or am I a infidel for even asking? :shucks:

growingcrazy · Sep 22, 2017

If you need a quick bump I would choose High P guano and kelp.

You have other options if your avoiding animal wastes, they just take longer.

No need for MPK

Guest · Sep 22, 2017

growingcrazy said:
If you need a quick bump I would choose High P guano and kelp.

You have other options if your avoiding animal wastes, they just take longer.

No need for MPK

Right or wrong it seems the info I find after looking high and low tells me that neither of those are quickly available. As in it takes more than a couple weeks to become available. I have both products and have used them and will still.
Im just looking for proven science on the speed of availability of P and K when showing the first signs of def. Hope I dont see any but I dont want to stand by waiting for slow acting amendments to help. Been there.

Limeygreen · Sep 22, 2017

In the future you may consider some of the Jadam recipes, you can put bone meal in, potassium sulfate etc and then have the microbes break it down in the water, dilute it and water you plants. It takes 1-3 months according to the book for it to be ready but if you like to be organic and have something that is more readily available this may help if you're using the microbes as well as the amendments. I tried in various pots this year of fruit trees, it didn't work as well as the soil that I had microbes added regularly, they got too hungry.

growingcrazy · Sep 22, 2017

Kmag and molasses are both fast acting solutions to K, wood ash could be said to be in the same category.

For P you don't have many liquid choices. Most companies use guano in bottled organic nutes. If you are adjusting the pH of your water you could use phosphoric acid as pH down to add P. Food grade acid works well.

I like to soak bone meal in vinegar to use as a foliar during stretch. You get N and P in small soluble amounts. Kmag and molasses in weeks 2-7.

I don't know of many other quick options besides ferments, which require time.

Alg0rithm · Sep 22, 2017

stewart169 said:
Right or wrong it seems the info I find after looking high and low tells me that neither of those are quickly available. As in it takes more than a couple weeks to become available. I have both products and have used them and will still.
Im just looking for proven science on the speed of availability of P and K when showing the first signs of def. Hope I dont see any but I dont want to stand by waiting for slow acting amendments to help. Been there.

MKP is used by bottle companies as a Bloom Booster...Really high #s

Although it doesn't help microbes much..
I agree with Growingcrazy on the use of guano if you need a P bump..I also disagree on the fact that you think it takes weeks for these items to break down and nutrients become available..Guano comes with orthophosphate, which is the readily available form of P for plants to take up. Guano also comes with a lot of readily available Calcium as well..

Lots of Ca = Lots of P uptake

There are also tea's. If you put Guano and Kelp into a bucket of water and aerate for a day those items become a lot more available as they're broken down in solution.

h.h. · Sep 22, 2017

Your best will always be your best and your tolerance will adjust. Having gone through the very same transition from chemicals to nature, I made a conscious decision that chemicals were just not worth the slight boost that I may accomplish.

While you may gain some qualities, others are lost and you'll always have to go through a period of rehabilitation while the microbes catch up. You become part of a cycle.

There is some argument that some chemicals such as nitrogen sulfate can be more ecologically friendly. IDK

I find it too easy to over do chemical fertilizers. While there is the same chance of error with organics, it's more of a set and forget.

For potassium, you can soak wood ashes. The whiter the ash, the better. Separate the water and let it evaporate or, I guess you could boil it down slightly. Potassium will be the last salt to dissipate out, sodium one of the first. (I.E. salt rings) Too much evaporation and you wind up with potassium hydroxide or lye. That takes a lot to get a little though. I always tried to use clean white ash and didn't bother to evaporate much. In my mind concentrates are akin to chemical fertilizers. Nature is much smarter than I am, however I have seen fire and rain come from the same storm. (To steal a lyric)

For personal use and to increase nitrogen and phosphorous along with other trace elements, add urine to your ashes. Don't use the evaporation method. If you want a lower n value, give the mixture a chance to off gas by exposure to air. Aged and on top of your mulch layer for less nitrogen. Add a little mulch over it if you want to retain some nitrogen, or side dress if your pot is big enough.
Use with some caution. Potassium is used as a preservative. Any white powder, sugar, salt, cocaine, heron, potassium, phosphorus..Just say no.

DocTim420 · Sep 22, 2017

MPK used in small doses is very effective for me and I am basically organic save a few "unauthorized inputs". The goal for me is to provide a predictable increase in PK about a month or so before harvest--which provides me a boost in both "quality" and "quantity".

Beginning about 5 weeks before harvest I treat my plants with MPK (1.25 grams/gallon) along with blackstrap MO. I increase the dosage to 2.5 grams/gallon for the next few weeks and stop 15 days before harvest. Last 2 weeks, nothing but water along with a serious water deficit during the last 5 days.

Some suggest that MPK destroys the microherd, but I have yet to confirm or even find a single study that supports that claim. Using "organic sources" to strategically release "PK" in a "plant available form" during the last few weeks before harvest--has proved unreliable for me. But with MPK, it is "steady eddie" and the increased weight is always there.

There are those who are 100% organic fanatic and will never allow "unorganic" inputs enter their garden; that's fine--no problem for me (just as there are people that adhere to their particular religion 110%--church 2x on Sunday and another 2x during the week). And then there are those (like me that don't go to church) that adopted some of the best things "organic religion" has to offer...and then mixed it up with some of the best practices from the "other religions". Kinda like the best of all worlds without the dogma.

growingcrazy · Sep 22, 2017

DocTim420 said:
MPK used in small doses is very effective for me and I am basically organic save a few "unauthorized inputs". The goal for me is to provide a predictable increase in PK about a month or so before harvest--which provides me a boost in both "quality" and "quantity".

Beginning about 5 weeks before harvest I treat my plants with MPK (1.25 grams/gallon) along with blackstrap MO. I increase the dosage to 2.5 grams/gallon for the next few weeks and stop 15 days before harvest. Last 2 weeks, nothing but water along with a serious water deficit during the last 5 days.

Some suggest that MPK destroys the microherd, but I have yet to confirm or even find a single study that supports that claim. Using "organic sources" to strategically release "PK" in a "plant available form" during the last few weeks before harvest--has proved unreliable for me. But with MPK, it is "steady eddie" and the increased weight is always there.

There are those who are 100% organic fanatic and will never allow "unorganic" inputs enter their garden; that's fine--no problem for me (just as there are people that adhere to their particular religion 110%--church 2x on Sunday and another 2x during the week). And then there are those (like me that don't go to church) that adopted some of the best things "organic religion" has to offer...and then mixed it up with some of the best practices from the "other religions". Kinda like the best of all worlds without the dogma.

As long as you don't claim your product to be organic you are fine. If you attach the term organic to a product grown with MPK, it is untrue.

Also forgot to mention, most compost is loaded with K. Green waste has large amounts of K, which is what most compost is made of. Find a good source and test it to find the K content, then you can use this in conjunction with other amendments as a topdress for a PK booster. The microbes will also make the P and Ca available if you use bone meal,SRP or gaunos...

'Boogieman' · Sep 22, 2017

Agree with growing crazy, it's not organic and shouldn't be labeled as such. I use seabird guano from down to earth in teas mid bloom along with humic/fulvic acids. Adding mycorrhizae to young transplants helps the uptake of phosphorus.

DocTim420 · Sep 22, 2017

growingcrazy said:
As long as you don't claim your product to be organic you are fine. If you attach the term organic to a product grown with MPK, it is untrue.

Also forgot to mention, most compost is loaded with K. Green waste has large amounts of K, which is what most compost is made of. Find a good source and test it to find the K content, then you can use this in conjunction with other amendments as a topdress for a PK booster. The microbes will also make the P and Ca available if you use bone meal,SRP or gaunos...

Oh, I am honest about representing my product as "mostly organic/biodynamic principled". The quantity of "unauthorized inputs" dwarf the number of "authorized inputs" in my garden. I am perpetual gardener that has a harvest every week or so and each plant generates not less than 1/4 lb of manicured buds. So unexpected variability is something I do not desire.

But you know, there is also a "organic representation" complication for those that use AgSil as a nutritional source of Si. All the organic fanatic authorities permit the use of "aqueous potassium silicate" (like Pro-Tekt, AgSil, etc) for "pesticide" and "plant disease control" only; not for "plant nutrition". Unfortunately, many ROLS/No Tillers believe otherwise and represent their flowers to be 100% organic grown.

Ahhh what webs we weave....

Much easier being honest about one's efforts...imo.

Betterhaff · Sep 22, 2017

Anybody try liquid bone meal? It’s basically a phosphorous boost, labeled 0-12-0. It also has some calcium in it.

jidoka · Sep 22, 2017

Does it? Anyone ever confirm in a lab that myco actually infects mj roots? inquiring minds wanna know

h.h. · Sep 22, 2017

In " mostly organic", if you're using chemical fertilizers, what part is organic? It either is or it isn't.

Guest · Sep 22, 2017

My soil is a modified coots mix. I added quite a bit of extra gypsum after my sample was tested as well as more steamed bone meal. I just last night transplanted into 7 gallon smart pots. I do plan to top dress as in the past when flipping and using all the good stuff along with coconut and aloe in my RO water.
It just seems for me about week 5 of flower the soil is running out of gas. That's why I'm using bigger pots this time as well. Not going to let them get huge in veg though.

I just want something to give me that little bump if needed. I do want to stay organic but I'm not one of the die hard purists. My concern is strictly for the soil health for the following run a few weeks after harvesting this one.

I hope I don't need it but I'm going to have a small amount on hand if needed.

DocTim420 · Sep 22, 2017

h.h. said:
In " mostly organic", if you're using chemical fertilizers, what part is organic? It either is or it isn't.

LOL, there is that binary thinking again (yes/no, right/wrong, left/right, good/bad...etc). Why must an answer always be "one or the other"--not a combination of both?

Let me help you. Look at any sink and most will have two faucets--left one is "hot" and the right one is "cold". If you want "warm" water...what do you do? There is no "warm" faucet, so do you walk away or use "both"?

Same thing in life...and same thing in gardening. Some people can be 100% organic (like you), others can be "mostly" or predominately organic (like me), and others can cheat and believe certain synthetic inputs are "organic" and refer to themselves as "organic fanatic".

BTW, investigate organic food labeling rules--there are two organic classifications: "100% organic" and "organic" (95% or more of the ingredients must be organic and up to 5% can be "nonorganic").

In my garden, I would say not more than 2% of my inputs are "nonorganic"...98% or more have been blessed by the organic fanatic authorities.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-labeling-standards

jidoka · Sep 22, 2017

Why you label it cheat...are you not confident in your choice, hmmm

DocTim420 · Sep 22, 2017

jidoka said:
Why you label it cheat...are you not confident in your choice, hmmm

DocTim420 said:
...Same thing in life...and same thing in gardening. Some people can be 100% organic (like you), others can be "mostly" or predominately organic (like me), and others can cheat and believe certain synthetic inputs are "organic" and refer to themselves as "organic fanatic".

Sorry, I don't understand....what was the question again?

growingcrazy · Sep 22, 2017

Why not call it slightly chemical grown?

Doesn't have the same ring($) to it.

h.h. · Sep 22, 2017

DocTim420 said:
LOL, there is that binary thinking again (yes/no, right/wrong, left/right, good/bad...etc). Why must an answer always be "one or the other"--not a combination of both?

Let me help you. Look at any sink and most will have two faucets--left one is "hot" and the right one is "cold". If you want "warm" water...what do you do? There is no "warm" faucet, so do you walk away or use "both"?

Same thing in life...and same thing in gardening. Some people can be 100% organic (like you), others can be "mostly" or predominately organic (like me), and others can cheat and believe certain synthetic inputs are "organic" and refer to themselves as "organic fanatic".

BTW, investigate organic food labeling rules--there are two organic classifications: "100% organic" and "organic" (95% or more of the ingredients must be organic and up to 5% can be "nonorganic").

In my garden, I would say not more than 2% of my inputs are "nonorganic"...98% or more have been blessed by the organic fanatic authorities.

https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-labeling-standards

If I have a cat and a dog and I want a squirrel, I'm SOL. You can't make one out of the other. I can't dump Miracle Grow on dirt and call it organic.

Biodynamics.

Biodynamic farmers manage their farms—including fields, woods, wetlands, plants, animals and people—as a self-contained, self-sustaining organism. They don’t use GMOs, synthetic chemicals, fertilizers or pesticides.

https://www.biodynamics.com/introduction-biodynamics

Biological agriculture is more in line with your ideas. While I do believe it holds some promise. After reading much of what Microbeman and others have to say about root exudes, any sort of fertilizer program has lost importance in my mind.

http://mining.state.co.us/SiteCollectionDocuments/MycorrhizaAndSoilPhosphorusLevels.pdf

Of course you can chose the synthetic fertilizer route. You can measure it all out. Get it just so. All roads lead to Rome.

MPK use in flower

Guest

Well-known member

Guest

Well-known member

Well-known member

New member

Active member

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...

Well-known member

Well-known member

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...

Well-known member

Active member

Active member

Guest

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...

Active member

The Doctor is OUT and has moved on...

Well-known member

Active member