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Suggested Experiment: Results of Trimming Fan Leaves

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DamnUglyDogE

Learning the rules well,so as to break them effect
ICMag Donor
Veteran
me thinks Clone only from the same mother plant.... in same medium,/environment under same light.... keep it simple....

one deleafed and stressed....top to bottom
one left completely natural... no growth removal at all....

doesn't seem to hard to define these parameters....



one left completely natural... no growth removal at all...

Been done a million time already...lol
Not much need of proof what no picking does...IMO...lol

There are however many ways to go about picking.
When,how much and such...

That's why I would suggest 3 levels of picking be defined...

Not an easy thing to do,yet possible... I think.. :biggrin:

Edit... Not saying we don't need a comparison specimen next to the picked plants.
Every strain/environment being different and all...

Puff,puff,pass....
 

yortbogey

To Have More ... Desire Less
Veteran
just seems { to me } that the more variable allowed... the bigger the room for misinterpretation...and variance in projects...
leading to problems and lack of completion... for contest, and contestants....

it's a new direction we are trying w/ this level of contest.... keep it simple to allow growth in the future seems just as important....
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
I appreciate the effort Payaso, but there is one glaring problem for me. Removing anything during the "vegetative phase" after initiating 12/12, is an absolute forbidden practice in my garden. If you are talking about documenting the results of removing fans in veg consistently, and routinely, and continuing until harvest is something I would not be willing to do a side by side.

That's no problem. But there should hopefully be people who are willing to do this, just to show the resultant effect on the plant; positive or negative.

Due to space constraints, I have to remove fans during veg, but I absolutely do not touch a single one for the first 40% of 12/12.

Again, a large part of this side by side might involve things you would not usually do, for the sake of experiment. It's this which should highlight more clearly what effect each procedure has on the plant. If you're not willing to take part in that particular parameter, you can choose a different category to explore.

I suppose there will be questions still remaining regarding stuff nobody is doing. That will open the door for people to explore them avenues for the benefit of information, and in the process add something new to the side-by-side. That would count towards the value of the experiment I'd imagine.

I would suggest that maybe there are 2-3 different test parameters that people can participate in.
For example:
Aggressive, Reactive, and Passive?
Aggressive would remove fans, and undesirable branches during veg, stretch, and flower.
Reactive would remove fans during veg to promote branching, only remove suckers during stretch, and finally only remove fans that are obstructing flower sites, tucking when possible.
Passive would remove nothing

Definitely. It's what I mean when I said
it's important to get clear what exactly defoliation "is"...

Maybe entrants could set out which technique they're going to employ. Maybe a set minimum quota of people who will do each thing; ie strip bare, defoliate gradually, not defoliate at all... etc.

I think though, that it's important that half of the test group for any technique should be left to grow natural? Does that sound right?
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
1. Clones only. The more in each group the better.

2. Equal positioning. No good giving one group prime position and the other a place on the outskirts of the room.

In a horizontal/scrog setup, split the test groups directly in half from the middle of the bulb outwards.

In a vertical setup, plants should be placed equal distance from the same bulb.

3. level and timing of defoliation and different test groups.

(1) Stripped aggressively throughout veg and flower.

(2) Stripped gradually in veg and flower

(3) Left alone through veg, then stripped aggressively at set point in 12/12 cycle - ie start of 12/12, after stretch, half way through 12/12 etc

(4) Left alone through veg and stripped gradually during flower

(5) left alone throughout entire cycle

Any combination of the above.

4. A control group if possible.

Personally I think this should be a number of plants which are left completely alone. I'm not sure on this though. I just think it's the best reference point myself.
 

HidingInTheHaze

Active member
Veteran
Strain is going to make a huge difference in the results.



I've been growing bubba for a few years, it yields like crap unless I pick most of the leaves off.
 

Swami

New member
The rules should be very simple as in any science experiment and need not require dozens of pages of discussion. In this regards, horticulture is no different than physics or chemistry.

The experimenter changes only ONE variable and keeps everything else as nearly identical as possible.

That's it. Don't complicate.

The results should be presented free from essay. Yield numbers ONLY, not yield numbers plus excuses plus hyperbole plus what-ifs.
 

Payaso

Original Editor of ICMagazine
Veteran
Evening Folks! Hope you enjoyed the holidaze today, if you do that thing :)

Anyway, I am still checking in a couple times a day and see I had to remove a few off-topic posts here...remember this thread is a discussion of the rules for a contest, not does this work or does it not.

I'm gonna run a tight thread here so we can determine the parameters of this test asap, as there are some eager growers ready to try this :)

I see some interesting suggestions for the rules have come forth, and I'm still collecting and distilling all that you have to say.

Still waiting to hear a solid suggestion from Bassy, hey man, if you're interested sit down for a moment and collect your thoughts...post 'em up in a condensed way - remember experiments by design are always kept simple so it proves a point, not continues the discussion of variables.

And remember, the contest isn't voted on for the biggest yeild, so strain doesn't matter in the slightest...

Two plants grown under the same conditions, documented until harvest, then weights compared. Photos, description of technique, posted regularly through the grow and at harvest. A nice yield shot is also good.

Prize goes to the most sorted out contest with the best documentation and clear results as voted on by the public...I would not want to be the sole judge and be accused of favoritism... :)

I have no favorites here, and I just want to see this point documented! And I know the readers of ICMag will really appreciate the thing or two they learn along the way.

Thanks again for chiming in with all your suggestion!
 

wildgrow

, The Ghost of
Veteran
How about 3 clones.

1) No defo at all.
2) All major fans off during veg. Stop defo at flip. So if your plant has 2 tops, you remove all major fans off both branches. 4 tops - 4 branches to defo.
3) All major fans off by the end of the grow. And not on harvest day. If you know there are only a few days left - pick those leaves.

If everyone has a control (non defo) and their choice of any number of defo techniques, we'll need hundreds of folks joining to hope to be able to glean some hard info from this.
 

Snype

Active member
Veteran
I like the idea of this contest but some rules may complicate things for people like myself who grow bushes. Growers should still be able to prune bottom growth on both test groups. I would assume that bush growers already do at least minor defoliation to get light to penetrate the canopy and we should still be able to do that, IMO. We will still be able to see the results compared to the major defoliation that this contest will require. I think if you cant do minor defoliation of bigger plants, it may be strange. At least for me.
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
I'm gonna run a tight thread here so we can determine the parameters of this test asap, as there are some eager growers ready to try this

Maybe, instead of concentrating solely on the parameters, it'd be easier if we understand what we're actually trying to find out. I think looking at it from that angle might give people ideas of what test they will run to find out, and how.

I think feedback is also important in each test and even members who have no intention of taking part, should be encouraged to chime in and maybe suggest some specifics that they would like to know; Suggestions for side by side experiments they would like to see in action.
 

Rolldaddy

Member
Thanks Payaso. This will be an interesting contest. Specially after seeing how the last thread on this went.

This experiment can be done how you said by defoliating one and leaving one alone. But I do agree with the third or fourth post on this thread that 2 plant with each technique should be the minimum. That way there is somewhat of a control group to see the difference. But either way. Great idea and I can't wait to see the results
 

wildgrow

, The Ghost of
Veteran
Ok - I am glad there is some interest in this experiment/contest.

First, this is the suggestion thread where we talk about the rules... off-topic posts with opinions and previous experiments may get removed...

I will try to address all the points above here and now :)

To make the experiment easy enough for any decent grower to accomplish should be a given. Therefore there will be just two identical plants grown together either under the same light, or lights, or outdoors SIDE-BY-SIDE means that, not two separate setups.

The parameters of the experiment will be decided as we discuss them here...that way it's truly a contest/experiment that we will agree is conclusive.

Defoliation will be defined as removing the fan leaves from the plant during vegetative growth. At which exact time during the growth cycle we need to discuss, as it seems logical that there is variation needed amongst strains.

As far as extensively documenting every leaf variation and subtlety, that should be up to the entrant, and voters should give weight to their choice of winner as to their ability to do this in detail, vs. merely showing some plant pics along the way with the final product results.

I am fascinated with hearing the results in final product...side-by-side examples in pictures along with weight of the final crop.

Hope that helps!

We aren't here to discuss our opinions on the validity of the experiment/test. We are here to discuss the rules by which it should be conducted.

Lets try to steer the thread back in the right direction.

If someone believes there is nothing to be gained by this, then move on and use your time more wisely.
 

Payaso

Original Editor of ICMagazine
Veteran
Once again, my sincere apologies for removing off-topic posts. When we get this sorted out and a contest underway, we will reopen the original thread where the discussion can continue... but this is the thread to discuss the rules, not whether or not this technique is worthy.

Peacefully we go forth into the garden...
 

Crooked8

Well-known member
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Two lights of the same brand new bulbs, exact same environment with identical air oscillation, same nutes and foliars at the exact same time and doses, same amount of tops per light, all material should be vegged the same way(e.g. Topped on the same day), hoods must be kept at identical distance measured routinely, any defoliation is done to ONLY one light(either in veg before the flip, after the flip during stretch, after stretch or in late flowering), defoliation at a steady rate or all at once is a choice. If the defoliation is done anytime before week 4 i think it could be potentially harmful. Anything after that and i think thats when people will see better yields. Well have to see. If i was going to do this experiment those are some of the parameters i would use.
 

Chevy cHaze

Out Of Dankness Cometh Light
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I'm with Crooked8 here, let's define the rules and get going. I'd like to see some positive developpement in this thread again.

only clones of the same mother, same amount of nodes etc... same EVERYTHING.
But I'd say both groups, the defos and the leftalones under one and the same light in the same room.
I mean the setup and how everything has to be the same for both groups of clones is common sense, right ?

What about the exact rules of defoliation? Anyone any more insight into this ? I defoliate in veg& flower, but mostly for space reasons ( in my old small cab). Now who made notes on all the rants and disgreements over the course of this thread?
Or can some master gardener help out and speak about what should be investigated exactly down to the very gist ?

I'm ready to take clones form my jackflash and help raise data under a 250hps on 100cm x 70cm anytime we figure out exactly what we want.
 

Bassy59

Member
My thoughts on the test guidelines. These thoughts are based on my experience using this technique and having studied k33ftr33z original thread on the subject extensively.

First understand, few will be able to properly do a "side by side" and in my eyes it shouldn't even be called that. But a proper name for such I don't have.

The reason side by side doesn't work with this technique is because a non defoliated plant next to a defoliated plant will shade out the defoliated plant. This goes 100% against the entire idea of defoliation, which is to get as much light as possible in a limited space, with limited available light to as much budding flowers as possible. Light is the real generator of growth.

With this in mind, test subjects should (imho) be able to meet certain parameters to really be counted.

1. Any number of plants is fine. But defoliated plants should be entirely under their own light(s), while non defoliated plant's will be under theirs as well. If in the same room, no less than 5 feet center to center spacing will be required to separate the two types of grows. If less than 5 feet, a dividing wall of some sort shall be used.

2. Clones or seed may be used, but clones from same mother are preferred. From seed grows will be all the same strain, but one should seriously consider multiple plants rather than 1 only of each as phenotypes add to many variables. More plants on each type will give better average results.

3. Lighting should be same brand/wattage bulbs, hopefully with no more than a 90 day difference in use times. All brand new bulbs are preferred, but for some this may be financial strain. As such, we should be able to relax this a little and allow small variance in hours of use of a given bulb.

4. No less than 35 watts per sq foot in flower, and no more than 55 watts. This prevents many vertical type growers from joining in but the basis of the use of this technique is for those with limited space/plant count/light available.

5. No out door grows of any kind for this experiment. The sun is strong enough that this technique is rarely if ever employed outdoors. As already mentioned, high defoliation is geared towards those with limited light/space/plant count.

6. If an uneven number of plants are grown, the odd worst plant will not be counted in final yields. Example: I have a 4 plant tent and a 3 plant tent. I would not be counting the worst of the 4 plant tent be it defoliated or non.

7. Training: Plants will be trained in the same manner from both test sides. As near as possible to equal timing. We can all understand and accept that even with like-clones, they may grow at somewhat different yet close rates. Growers will do their best to duplicate on both sides.

8. Veg time defoliation and timing to flip: This will likely be the most controversial aspect of the test subjects. Growers already employing the high defoliation techniques as described by k33ftr33z already understand this does slow the plants during veg period. As such, those plant's will be allowed proper catch up time. For those already using this technique, they generally drop clones 2 weeks earlier than a non defoliator.

9. To equalize: Plant's will be flip at same HEIGHT! Not time. As both test sides will be trained in the same manner, achieving flip at x height should not be an issue. Width should be close to similar.

10. Contest growers will not be allowed to grow tall trees that lights have no shot of covering. Using a standard light-depth chart, growers will try to maximize within the range of the light, height wise.

11. Same size-brand reflective hoods should be used as well.

12. Two groups of defoliation styles will be accepted. Those that defoliate in flower only and those that defoliate in veg & flower. It should be interesting for folks to see the difference.

13. Light defoliation over a longer period is not allowed for this contest. Following the original thread idea as per k33ftr33z ( found here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163) is the guide to defining defoliation.

14. Non defoliators may tuck, but not remove fan leafs except those that are dead or dying.

15. Soil or hydro matters not. However same style, soil/water shall be used.

16. Nutrients shall be same brand and types. Fed same ratios with goal of near same e.c. at all times possible. It's understandable when one plant drinks more than another, so being close as possible to optimal for your strain/plants is the goal. Just because test grp a is at 1.5 e.c and grp b is at 1.9 which you prefer, does not mean that when you add nutrient to grp a to bring it up to 1.9, that you're forced to add same amount of nutrient and thus burn grp b.

17. Harvest time: Harvest will be done when the plants meet the growers needs in terms of trich color. Each grower will do their best to harvest at same RIPENESS. Days in flower matters less.

18. Each contestant will journal both sides of the grow extensively. Trying to document as much as possible and add any interesting thoughts on what they see in each grow. Updates will be no less than twice per week.

19. Each contestant may ask for guidance on either side of the grow and is encouraged to do so. However, respondents will NOT under any circumstances be allowed to harass or chirp about going against nature or anything to bring down shame or remorse of any sort. This is supposed to be educational! Opinions will be left at the door. Conjecture from "scientific communities" on tomatoes or other types of plants, trees, vines, etc will be left at the door.

Sorry about the wall of text. Hell there's probably something I forgot that came to mind previously. But this is as fair and reasonable as I can come up with for both sides of the testing.

As for winners (everyone who reads the contest threads will be a winner), each grow should be allowed to finish. Hopefully we can allow a 1 month window to start for those growers not ready. But maybe a two week window to claim your spot?

Hopefully this gives some ideas on what it takes to truly do a side by side of this type.
 

mowood3479

Active member
Veteran
I agree with bassy.... There are soo many variables to consider that there would have to be a large number of clones/lights used.. N in the end the data would only be accurate to that exact cut/clone.
I wish i had the time n room to conduct real experiments.
My own experential, anecdotal evidence suggests most of the cultivars i run yield more when gradually defoliated after stretch thru harvest. But i have a aj's sour d cut that seems to hate any defoliation.
If someone does do a side by side i would suggest.. Identical cuts.. Same # plants for each light.. A defoliated light. A control light, and as many variations of the two as space allows..
Then once u get your data, try it over again. If it can be replicated then it
Holds some water.
A one time thing, is just some data.. Not enough to draw any conclusions from at least imho
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Bassy,

I agree with a lot of your post mate, but there's a few things I strongly disagree with.

First of all, the issue of clones only vs seed.

clones or seed may be used

For me, this really should be a ground rule.

Any test using seeds to compare... well... it's integrity is seriously compromised from the beginning imo. I think that there should be flexibility regarding some things, but that's really got to be a strong ground rule I think.

I suggest participants should grow out more clones than they need, then, once rooted, choose those whose size and growing rate is as close as possible, then cull the rest.

I think a lot of people use that method anyway just as a matter of keeping things even. It'd be an important tool here.


The reason side by side doesn't work with this technique is because a non defoliated plant next to a defoliated plant will shade out the defoliated plant. This goes 100% against the entire idea of defoliation, which is to get as much light as possible in a limited space

This can be negated in several ways. One of which could be to simply raise the defoliated plant to the same level as the rest, or to give each side their own light.

4. No less than 35 watts per sq foot in flower, and no more than 55 watts. This prevents many vertical type growers from joining in but the basis of the use of this technique is for those with limited space/plant count/light available.

I don't agree with this because I don't see how, as long as both groups receive the same light from the same distance, it will even matter. Vertical growers shouldn't be discouraged from taking part, in fact, vertical setups might be the easiest to keep equal in many ways. I think we can let that one go for the sake of not keeping the parameters too tight.

If the wattage adds no variability, it's not a variable.

8. Veg time defoliation and timing to flip: This will likely be the most controversial aspect of the test subjects.

Growers already employing the high defoliation techniques as described by k33ftr33z already understand this does slow the plants during veg period.

As such, those plant's will be allowed proper catch up time. For those already using this technique, they generally drop clones 2 weeks earlier than a non defoliator.

I very very strongly disagree with this fella, and you already know this. In fact, I disagree with this as much as I do with the idea of using seeds in the test.

It's very important I think this gets dealt with now.

If you allow one group of plants extra veg time, or an extra advantage in any way, you are basically invalidating the test. You've voided it at that point.

The idea is to keep the variables to a minimum. By giving extra veg time to one side vs the other, you're adding in a huge huge variable. At that point it's not a side by side, it's two separate grows almost.

That's not to say people can't do things your way though, either. And this is what I mean about flexibility.

If you want to give extra veg time to one side, you can. But then at the end we'll have to do a simple mathematical equation to work out whether what you did was worth it.

If you dedicate 2 or 3 weeks of extra time, and you get a higher yield in the process, you will need to work out whether that extra time was worth it in terms of grams per week of growth.

It's a method that will have to prove itself against the numbers. It's as simple as that I think.

9. To equalize: Plant's will be flip at same HEIGHT! Not time. As both test sides will be trained in the same manner, achieving flip at x height should not be an issue. Width should be close to similar.

Strong disagreement from me on this one.

We're testing efficacy. We've got to keep that in mind. It's very very important.

I think each test will have it's own merits. I think if everyone does the same test we won't learn much.

I don't think we should rule out that test which seeks to show us what happens when we grow the two plants in a different way, for the same amount of time.

Just like I don't think we should rule out people doing it your way to see if the extra veg time is worthwhile.

I think this is very important from an efficiency point of view.

10. Contest growers will not be allowed to grow tall trees that lights have no shot of covering. Using a standard light-depth chart, growers will try to maximize within the range of the light, height wise.

I'm not so sure about this. Although it's something I don't really feel strongly about. I don't know. Maybe this is where defoliation really comes into it's own. I think maybe taller plants should be allowed. They might give a more stark contrast in results.

I think it's an interesting group and don't think it should be disallowed.
 
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