Plant Based Diet

Dr.Young said:

Actually the American heart association was founded by vegetable oil company Crisco and its all bullshit.. All heart disease studies based on epidemiologic studies, and cherry picked. Its all just marketing for healthcare profit. Our disease actually stems from carbohydrates and plants..

Fat is the most dense calorie available. You have Water soluble, and Fat soluble nutrients..
Ive been watching a cardiologist who supports high fat, meat based diets, and explaining the science behind it.. Very interesting stuff...
Just think of your veins like a rubber hose. Plant debri, and low fat causes the hose to dryrot and form scar tissue.... While plant debri called lectins leak from the gut into your cardiovascular system.

Also your adrenal gland is attached to your kidney and caffeine directly affects how well you filter toxins, and dramatically agitates your adrenals/heart.

Click to expand...

As I said in my previous post, diet is controversial. There are cardiologists advocating meat, but they seem to be in the minority. There is loads of evidence that increasing vegetables and reducing meat is the healthiest way to go. I didn't know about the Crisco and American Heart association link but will look it up. As you are suggesting a vested interest I have to point out there are quite a few cardiologists who advocate for no oil at all such as Caldwell Esselsyn, who reversed heart disease in patients following a strict vegan , no processed food diet, zero oil.

The danger of only following one persons views is that you miss the big picture. There are loads of cardiologists advocating a vegan diet, or advocating reducing meat. I think you can be reasonably healthy by just reducing meat intake rather than cutting it out. I do think that you can be even healthier by cutting it out altogether.

I am on this diet to reduce the risk of prostate and bowel cancer mainly, but also to reduce the risk of heart attack. All my markers and tests have shown reduced risk since starting this diet. See my first post.

About the only thing most experts agree on, is that reducing processed foods is healthy.

Dr. Kim Williams, recent president of the American College of Cardiology, follows and vigorously recommends a vegan diet to both patients and other physicians for optimal health.

Are you following his advice?

Cardiovascular disease is the number one cause of death in the world. It is also the number one cause of death among physicians and cardiologists, so unfortunately they are often not role models in healthy nutrition themselves.

But apart from his advice to not eat processed and refined foods, like cupcakes or sodas, Dr. Williams recommends not eating any animal products whatsoever, including fish, chicken, eggs and dairy.
https://meatyourfuture.com/2018/09/cardiologists/

Just a few others. I can find hundreds of such articles.

https://www.pennstatehealthpassion....low-cardiologists-vegan-diet-is-the-way-to-go

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/ct-met-vegan-cardiologist-20140817-story.html

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih...-daily-triples-heart-disease-related-chemical

https://www.eatthis.com/heart-doctor-health-tips/

https://www.cardiosmart.org/news/2019/6/red-and-processed-meats-increase-risk-for-heart-disease

Cortisol is a powerful hormone, and adrenaline is too of course.

I believe fasting is a huge part... Apoptosis, cell division... Cells are made up of fat, so quality of fat is huge. I use to quinoa,oatmeal,sweet potato, garbonzo bean,and every knd of bean.. drink extra virgin olive oil out of the bottle, did avocados, did natural peanut butter, did tons of flax/chia seed.... All I was doing was loading my body down making it work hard for nothing.. All you need is to lower your metabolism and not be addicted to calories... The higher your carbs the more addicted, and physically/chemically dependent on food you are..

Just like with weed or any substance... The more you do the more you need to fulfil desired effect... Same thing with food and calories...
Fat slows down absorption, and makes absorption more efficient and thorough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOlBdaLLzkI&ab_channel=nadirmirali

So many videos i cant think of which one to show.. Sorry im scattered all over the place. Ive studied this topic for so long I have trouble knowing where to start, but this man follows the money, and the science.. Puts the majority of cardiologist to shame, because all they do is follow what they are told, and dont think for themselves. Your health is dictated from your mouth to your anus. Outside of that your skin is the largest organ.... Properly hydrate, and bath. Take care of your internals, and good to go.

Dr Young, I'd be more impressed if you linked to an actual study or article, not a youtube clip. I agree that fasting is great, but what has all that oil intake you are describing have any thing to do with a plant based diet? A healthy vegan diet is not about eating heaps of vegetable oil? In fact the diet I am on advocates not eating processed oil at all. As I said in an earlier post my fat comes from nuts, avocados, olives,soy products, some fruits and vegetables. If you need to eat oils choose the healthier ones and only in moderation. Having the right ratio of Omega 3 to 6 also seems to be very important. I get Omega 3s from several sources including chia, flax seeds, brussel sprouts, and a vegan supplement.

Unless you are qualified (a cardiologist), you have no idea whether the person you linked "puts the majority of cardiologists to shame". You are simply choosing to support his view for whatever reason. Just because you have read a lot on the internet, it does not mean that it is valid research.

The longest living people in the world eat unprocessed foods, 95% plants. They eat only small amounts of fish and meat. Again there is loads of evidence from studies of blue zones, where people are the longest lived.
https://medium.com/@andrewmerle/the...ongest-lived-people-in-the-world-fbfe336e3ede

The longest living people in the world is a epidemiological study not based on any facts, and was funded by guess who. Also comparing mcdonald diet types vs health conscious vegans is blatantly a cherry picked study... Wake up. Most of the people labeled as vegans in those studies ate meat also.
Also doctors are required less than 20hr of diet education, so what difference would a cardiologist make...

Your going to have to do the research yourself and stop being lazy choosing to listen to only studies based on confirmation bias if you are actually concerned about your health at all... If not good for you I tried but your clearly ignorant.

The only reason veganism gives the false sense of health is because you are detoxing from certain processed foods, but your not nourishing anything.

There is also the issue of saturated fat vs unsaturated fat..... Subcutaneous fat, and fatty organs....What do you think is better.... Having a layer of lard under your skin, or your organs being smothered with fat. That 6 pack might not be as attractive when put into perspective... Visually healthy, factually unhealthy.

Dr.Young said:

The longest living people in the world is a epidemiological study not based on any facts, and was funded by guess who. Also comparing mcdonald diet types vs health conscious vegans is blatantly a cherry picked study... Wake up. Most of the people labeled as vegans in those studies ate meat also.
Also doctors are required less than 20hr of diet education, so what difference would a cardiologist make...

Your going to have to do the research yourself and stop being lazy choosing to listen to only studies based on confirmation bias if you are actually concerned about your health at all... If not good for you I tried but your clearly ignorant.

The only reason veganism gives the false sense of health is because you are detoxing from certain processed foods, but your not nourishing anything.

There is also the issue of saturated fat vs unsaturated fat..... Subcutaneous fat, and fatty organs....What do you think is better.... Having a layer of lard under your skin, or your organs being smothered with fat. That 6 pack might not be as attractive when put into perspective... Visually healthy, factually unhealthy.

Click to expand...

I am not sure why you would write off a study simply because it is epidemiology based? Studying large populations has limitations, but is also useful. Do you think theses societies don't exist? Yes I stated that there was also meat in these diets, but at very low portions. Also I am not comparing a vegan diet to a McDonald diet. I have already made that clear. My diet when I ate meat and dairy was very good, few processed foods. I have not eaten fast food in years. The last McDonald burger I had was 1982. As to who funds these studies, exactly the same can be said of studies funded by dairy and meat industries. I look to studies without vested interest if I can.

I have seen changes in my blood tests since switching to vegan. PSA down, cholesterol down, blood pressure down. Can you explain that? I am not the only one who has noticed these changes.

Wake up yourself. It's pretty arrogant of you to assume I haven't done the research. I assure you I have. I have looked at plenty of peer reviewed studies on both sides. I have not taken the word of cardiologists either. I have looked at the science behind it. It is just as valid if I accuse you of confirmation bias, as you are clearly stuck in a keto space. Btw you obviously haven't read what I have written or looked at the links. Oh, and if I wanted to look good and have a 6 pack i would pick keto any day of the week as you will certainly lose weight. I am more concerned with long term health.

Don't use youtube clips for your info for starters, especially ones where it is not clear who the person is, or what qualifications they have. For example, I have had people quote Joe Rogan as a source. Lol, someone who advocates hunting and has a pseudoscientist as his source of diet information.

Detoxing is an absolute myth. I don't know why you would bring that up? I know people that have been vegan for 35 plus years and seem very healthy. Is that long enough to detox if detox was a reality?
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/the-dubious-practice-of-detox

Not gonna read all that... More interested in science than diet labels, and bias. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjgG9aba9gc&ab_channel=nadirmirali
I have also shared this with multiple PHD, and students, and they find no fault in anything he says. They were actually impressed, and one actually presented his final thesis on this exact topic saying it was almost scary coincidental I met him, and happened to bring that topic up to him.

Fat is literally soap that cleans your blood of pathogens.. Sugar feeds all things bad. Forcing your body into dramatic glucose/insulin swings...
Its like burning oil vs rocket fuel.... Fat is far more stable and sustainable.

If you want me to talk about veganism.. All i gotta say is... The money, and pharma want you to be vegan. I prefer not to take pills, and supplements for nutrient and vitamin deficiencies.

Dr.Young said:

Not gonna read all that... More interested in science than diet labels, and bias. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjgG9aba9gc&ab_channel=nadirmirali
I have also shared this with multiple PHD, and students, and they find no fault in anything he says. They were actually impressed, and one actually presented his final thesis on this exact topic saying it was almost scary coincidental I met him, and happened to bring that topic up to him.

Click to expand...

Sorry if your attention span is limited. If you aren't going to give me the respect of reading what I have written, go and start your own thread. I have at least looked at what you have said and replied in a respectful way.

You seem pretty arrogant. You just said not to trust cardiologists because they have 20 hours diet training, but the guy you reference is a cardiologist. Dr. Nadir Ali is a practicing Interventional Cardiologist.

Vegans are amongst the least dependent people on pharma that I know. I switched to vegan because my dr wanted me to take statins. I have succeeded and don't need medication. I take vitamin b and occasional omega 3's. That's about it.

Your taking it personal.. I prefer impersonal science. I didnt say anything about your diet. I said the biased study you mention literally compares a Mcdonalds diet vs unprocessed tribe diet..... The Mcdonalds typical american diet gets the majority of its calories from plants not meat. Most of its fat from vegetable oils... etc..
There has never been a study comparing healthy high fat animal based diet vs fullblown vegan diet in any accurate way.

Every response you have is based on bias, and as if im personally talking about you when i havent read a thing you wrote beforehand.

Dr.Young said:

Your taking it personal.. I prefer impersonal science. I didnt say anything about your diet. I said the biased study you mention literally compares a Mcdonalds diet vs unprocessed tribe diet..... The Mcdonalds typical american diet gets the majority of its calories from plants not meat. Most of its fat from vegetable oils... etc..
There has never been a study comparing healthy high fat animal based diet vs fullblown vegan diet in any accurate way.

Every response you have is based on bias, and as if im personally talking about you when i havent read a thing you wrote beforehand.

Click to expand...

Please quote some science then, not youtube clips from one source. The only thing I have taken remotely personally was your statement "I'm not reading all that".

You accuse me of bias, yet you have linked me to two youtube clips from the same guy. How do you know he isn't biased? FFs. I have linked the AHA, Harvard, various news sources, and others. YOu have pointed out bias in one. You clearly haven't read them.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/06/28/aha-coconut-oil/

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/01/09/144918710/the-forgotten-fascinating-saga-of-crisco

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-teicholz-saturated-fat-wont-kill-you-20170723-story.html

I already told you the AHA is bullshit, that was a key statement. You using them to defend yourself makes no sense...
Just hydrate, eat healthy fats, stay away from sugar/carbs.. dont worry about vegan or meat eating.... Just get healthy mate

No one here was advocating for the AHA.

It was a plant based diet that was being advocated.
Which is quite reasonable and sensible.
Given the ethics or the lack of them with the corporate food
industry, the closer to a basic diet one can eat the better.

Dr.Young said:

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/06/28/aha-coconut-oil/

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2012/01/09/144918710/the-forgotten-fascinating-saga-of-crisco

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-teicholz-saturated-fat-wont-kill-you-20170723-story.html

I already told you the AHA is bullshit, that was a key statement. You using them to defend yourself makes no sense...
Just hydrate, eat healthy fats, stay away from sugar/carbs.. dont worry about vegan or meat eating.... Just get healthy mate

Click to expand...

It's not just the AHA, plenty of organisations world wide support eating mostly plants, very little meat. I have quoted other sources not just the AHA. Sorry but I think your info is way more biased. Don't forget that there are vested interests with those who are promoting meat and dairy, and people that are making money promoting various diets (yes vegan among them, along with dairy, meat etc). We will have to agree to disagree.

From Harvard Health (are they biased too?);
It's clear that following a plant-based diet is associated with a lower risk of heart disease.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/the-right-plant-based-diet-for-you

It lists sources such as American Journal of Clinical Nutrition & Journal of the American College of Cardiology. But I have read heaps of articles in various journals. I am not from the US so have had not much exposure to AHA and was not aware of any controversy.

Here's another one. Seems a vegan diet reduces medication, unlike what you claimed;
Research shows that plant-based diets are cost-effective, low-risk interventions that may lower body mass index, blood pressure, HbA1C, and cholesterol levels. They may also reduce the number of medications needed to treat chronic diseases and lower ischemic heart disease mortality rates. Physicians should consider recommending a plant-based diet to all their patients, especially those with high blood pressure, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, or obesity.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/ar...-based,ischemic heart disease mortality rates.

<3

Gry said:

No one here was advocating for the AHA.

It was a plant based diet that was being advocated.
Which is quite reasonable and sensible.
Given the ethics or the lack of them with the corporate food
industry, the closer to a basic diet one can eat the better.

Click to expand...

From what I have read all good diets, whether meat or vegan, all agree that processed foods are bad, and that we should eat as natural food as possible.

Cool thread Chi13. I'm personally not vegan or vegetarian but there are many nights where I'll have a fully vegetarian meal and I generally have a good portion of veggies with any meat meal I have. The thing I've noticed, since moving from the US, is that most other countries food is much less processed and reliant on sugar and that seems to have a major effect on the health of individuals in those countries. Even here in NZ the beef from mcdonalds is real 100% beef and actually tastes like a gourmet burger in the states, but i digress. I've noticed when I eat less red meat for protein, I tend to have a little more energy and if it's a workout day I tend to recover better if my meals are plant based rather than meat based, but I do have to eat a lot more of the plant based foods and the prep does tend to take a lot longer. To each his own though, I think you should do what makes you feel best and who cares what others say, good to see you doing that Chi.

Brother Nature said:

Cool thread Chi13. I'm personally not vegan or vegetarian but there are many nights where I'll have a fully vegetarian meal and I generally have a good portion of veggies with any meat meal I have. The thing I've noticed, since moving from the US, is that most other countries food is much less processed and reliant on sugar and that seems to have a major effect on the health of individuals in those countries. Even here in NZ the beef from mcdonalds is real 100% beef and actually tastes like a gourmet burger in the states, but i digress. I've noticed when I eat less red meat for protein, I tend to have a little more energy and if it's a workout day I tend to recover better if my meals are plant based rather than meat based, but I do have to eat a lot more of the plant based foods and the prep does tend to take a lot longer. To each his own though, I think you should do what makes you feel best and who cares what others say, good to see you doing that Chi.

Click to expand...

Interesting what you say about processed foods in US vs NZ. I had a mate who lived in the States for 10 years and he said he noticed how much more processed the food was. I think things are starting to change for the better though. I'm in Australia btw so just accross the ditch as New Zealanders say.

The guy who did the Game Changers documentary originally went vegan as a way to quicken his recovery from injury, and found that it also improved his athletic performance.

The way I started was just a gradual increase of vegetarian and vegan meals. Improved blood results are what made me go all the way.

Thanks for your interest.

I'm also pretty confident of the science around my choice. I wouldn't do it otherwise, but as Dr Young correctly pointed out there are vested interest. I'd say on both sides of the arguments. You wouldn't think that the science around healthy eating was so controversial, but it is.

I was being douchey and too brief my bad.. I've weened off caffeine and had bit of headache brewing... Its hard not type 10 paragraphs scratching the surface, its hard to summarize my view/timeline that led to my view.... Ive studied for 15 years so far...
Hmmm

Agriculture definitely helped civilization support numbers, but not in conjunction with health.... If you look at the healthiest people in the world now its not whole civilizations obviously its tribes, not even cities or areas because it generally is generalization...
The healthiest tribes living, and archeological findings to support also are hunter gatherers...
With agriculture you see dental damage, and things like gluten intolerance. Processed foods, Lectins... Shrinkage of brain... Literally we evolved because we ate meat, under the expensive tissue hypothesis our brains became larger than our gut BECAUSE of dense caloric diet aka fat/protein density. Before (millions of years ago, we had a larger gut than brain because we ate strictly plants)... If you look at our closest ape ancestors which arent gorillas... They actually eat other chimpanzees, let alone other animals.

You think about raw food with many vegetables needing to be cooked (to cook lectins out), or to even be palatable/edible.... and then think raw meat... which is actually prominent yet unfathomable to some...

All civilizations are based around water, and we of course have always had a diet of fish since probably the dawn of our current phase of evolution.

It seems intuitive that we dont wanna go out and murder animals, at best maybe we would defend ourselves against animals and not be aggressive, and it seems like something we've evolved enough we can do without but that is a modern city based mindset... evidence doesnt support it.

Dr.Young you are misguided and rambling nonsense like a troll which the internet has many of. Yes western doctors traditional cardiologists have not received diet education or nutrition as you say. The plant based doctors some of us are talking about who have decided to go vegan learned for themselves beyond and have gone away from old western medical curriculum. Modern city living as you describe it brought diabetes and obesity. And soft drinks sugar water tooth decay. But that does not mean a tribe eating animals in the forest has a longer lifespan than people living in cities. You mention some theory. But we are talking about evidence. The doctors in the books and movies here have read x rays and scans of heart vessels before and after plant based diets. When used as a treatment or intervention a whole foods plant based diet will reverse heart disease and cholesterol and obesity caused from a processed foods meat and dairy based diet. Studies have specifically looked at animal protein and similar to what you allude to often times a study is sponsored by an industry say cattle or dairy for example. No matter about that if you tried it yourself you would see, it takes one to know one kind of thing.

Sometimes you will hear people say not to listen to anecdotes. Like a story is no good. In other words only listen to their story. Why do I feel better eating plants? Why or explain how it is that I feel beans as one example are perfectly adequate for nutrition. If it works for me I feel better doing so and people from all walks including doctors have made books and movies about the subject. You would have to say you tried fasting and a plant based diet for months or years. And in your experience eating beef jerky or chicken breasts or drinking whey protein milk shakes results in feeling better having more energy or less recovery time, a more enjoyable life experience, whatever it is that is important to you. Because I do not hear people saying that. You hear people say they like bacon as in the salt or taste but you do not hear people say they lost weight have nicer skin wake up earlier from it. The fact is livestock raised (factory farmed) on feed that humans would not eat like glyphosate sprayed genetically modified corn for example certainly affects health and nutrition compared to livestock grazing on natural pasture in other words a truly free ranging animal will contain different vitamins and minerals or toxins compared to a factory raised animal. But that does not change the nature of receiving calcium from spinach or cabbage compared with bone marrow or omega 3 and 6s and so on from olives or coconuts instead of mackerel.

Debating or arguing can seem like a waste, sinking to someone else's level. You have proven that you do not make any sense with your statements. Talking about science or evolution or something as in being a smart science reasoning appreciating individual. Then it goes off course when you say oh forget about the heart association they don't know what they're talking about. So expert opinion is good when it fits with your idea but they are clueless when it doesn't. That sounds confusing. When in fact it is confusing and obvious at the same time because the US has all of the industries responsible for obesity and toxic runoff water and air pollution etc.

Back to science..

Blood tests in relation to cholesterol. Said topic is another reason I linked the cardiologist... Because it has been shown that heart related issues are actually heavily based upon insulin resistance not cholesterol which we have been lead to believe by the AHA. In other words.. Its not the fats, or cholesterol, but the carbohydrates, and carbohydrates effects on fats/cholesterol.... Insulin is worse with fat in conjunction with carbs... But without carbs insulin levels of course are most stable of all possibilities...Your LDL, and HDL levels cannot be rendered important without the most important variable.. Insulin

The bioavailability of plant protein is half that of beef..

Also vegans are proven to be at higher risk of stroke... which if you look at the definition of stroke, is a blockage or bursting of artery/vessel.... Heart attack being more vague and if you connect the dots is actually a carbohydrate/insulin based issue not animal product based.

From a eco friendly standpoint which is another reason i got into veganism you get told the lie of animal farming producing a majority of co2 emissions which is a lie. Animals are actually carbon negative because they produce, and support plant life. Providing carbon sequestering to the soil, and enriching nutrient absorption & production to an environment. Whereas monocrop agriculture is entirely destroying our planet, land, and ocean. Pesticide, and chemical toxicity to the environment destroy wildlife land and water. We are moving towards natural farming, and indigenous micro life based farming, but not to a degree of being the entire staple of our diet.