What's new
  • Please note members who been with us for more than 10 years have been upgraded to "Veteran" status and will receive exclusive benefits. If you wish to find out more about this or support IcMag and get same benefits, check this thread here.
  • Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!

Citric Acid

MrFista

Active member
Veteran
Yep. That's exactly what I thought. Still want to help, just going to need an experts advice.

Acid/buffer solutions are generally just the one substance and it's conjugate base (the same acid minus the reactive hydrogens. Ratios of the correct acid/base pair give you pH buffers in the required ranges.

Dolomite is the problem. It's solubility ranges over particulate size and nobody has clear cut figures on various dolomites and their ability to accept protons.

Learning's all good. One day I'll have the answer.
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
going back to the original idea - which was about making a cal.mag supplement using dolomite lime and citric acid, what about just mixing citric acid with water to a certain pH and then stirring in dolomite lime powder and leaving it until it had neutralized - would that liquid then be rich in cal/mag that was useful to the plant?
the fact that it was neutral would suggest that the ions had 'balanced out'
or is that just too simplistic
(go easy on me - its a long time sice i did chemistry :D)

VG
 

MrFista

Active member
Veteran
If you can get neutral pH out of a blend that is fantastic. Try to get it to sit about 6.2 would be uber sexy fantastic. The thing is, dolomite can take a long time to dissociate completely, over a month in some studies I've read.

To hasten it's demise... boil it. I think you might need to reflux it too. Anyone?

I'd try a series to save a lot of time.

Boil the crap out of a batch lot of well screened dolomite.

Add various portions to a bunch of containers. eg 5%, 10% etc To each container add RO enough to top to a set volume (eg 5% dolomite liquid gets 95% RO), and the same amount of citric acid in each sample. Wait a week and test pH. Might stumble on it pretty quick.
 
N

ngen

VG, i was a little suprised when you didn't get back to me about citric acid a while ago, now i see why, you were busy! great thread!
spurr, mr fista, knowledge must appreciated!
 

Gastro

Active member
Nice thread, even more reason to stick to the lemon juice as a ph adjuster and flavor enhancer.
Going to pick up some citric acid at a mate tomorrow ^^
 

VerdantGreen

Genetics Facilitator
Boutique Breeder
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
thanks guys

Mr F - so dolomite will go into solution, but that doesnt mean it's fully disassociated?
and you'll have to tell me what pH 6.2 would mean cos i cant work it out!

VG
 

MrFista

Active member
Veteran
OK. 6.2 is the sweetest pH spot I've found for MJ. If you have a reading with better results I'd go with that as you really know your shit.

That being said I haven't tested my bed in 6 months and it is going ballistic, must get a test in for this conversations sake.

The citric acid when partially dissociated is capable of acting as an acid or a base. This is (partially) why it is considered a weak acid. It has 3 carboxylic acid groups on it (carboxylic acid is a weak acid) and this makes it a 'strong weak' acid. = 3 x weak acid groups on 1 molecule.

Amphiprotic -> Can act as an acid or base. Lets break it down into the functional groups and watch what happens.

For this example only, not as gospel... A minus sign on a molecule means it is a bit basic.

Citric acid's has 3 x CO2H.

3 x CO2H - H+ -> 2 x CO2H + CO2- (slightly more acidic still overall)

2 x CO2H + 1 CO2- - H+ -> CO2H + 2 x CO2-. Slightly more basic than acidic.
 
hey thanks verdantgreen I'll try it. I get my citric acid at the health food store for 7.00 a pound I had no idea that my bottle of earth juice ph down was the same thing lol
 

MrFista

Active member
Veteran
This is simplified to PH, so is not accurate entirely, will help understanding without all the technical stuff.

The citric acid will only continue to break down if the pH of the solution is higher than the pH of the fully protonated citric acid (lost all 3 H's). This is a very low pH and so citric acid will nomally protonate fully. However, every time it protonates it lowers pH of the solution making it harder to react. For every H+ lost by citric acid, an H3O+ (hydronium) ion is formed.

Dolomite, on the other hand, is basic and pulling H+ from the water. for every H+ the dolomite (CO3--) secures, the water gains one OH- (hydroxyl) ion.

As you can see, these two cancel each other out.

OH- + H3O+ -> 2 H2O.

To lower pH from 7, we want more hydronium ions in solution. To that end I think a solution of dolomite is a good starting point. Have a known amount dissolved.

Each dolomite molecule is going to gain 4 H+.
Each citric acid molecule is going to donate 3 H+.

As these molecules share very similar molecular weight it shouldn't be too hard to start hitting ballpark goals quickly.

Try this. Totally dissolve 1 part dolomite in pH 7 water weighed carefully. Get the pH for our records. I'd boil the crap out of it myself. Make a batch lot so you can experiment. Add to it 1 and 1/3 parts citric acid, warm it up in the sun, shake it up, add energy so it reacts and dissolves completely.

Get pH, this might be close to 7. If it's not I should be able to work out the difference. Or you could with trial and error.

Go for 5% volume dolomite at first, we want complete dissolution.
 
S

SCROG McDuck

This is simplified to PH, so is not accurate entirely, will help understanding without all the technical stuff.

The citric acid will only continue to break down if the pH of the solution is higher than the pH of the fully protonated citric acid (lost all 3 H's). This is a very low pH and so citric acid will nomally protonate fully. However, every time it protonates it lowers pH of the solution making it harder to react. For every H+ lost by citric acid, an H3O+ (hydronium) ion is formed.

Dolomite, on the other hand, is basic and pulling H+ from the water. for every H+ the dolomite (CO3--) secures, the water gains one OH- (hydroxyl) ion.

As you can see, these two cancel each other out.

OH- + H3O+ -> 2 H2O.

To lower pH from 7, we want more hydronium ions in solution. To that end I think a solution of dolomite is a good starting point. Have a known amount dissolved.

Each dolomite molecule is going to gain 4 H+.
Each citric acid molecule is going to donate 3 H+.

As these molecules share very similar molecular weight it shouldn't be too hard to start hitting ballpark goals quickly.

Try this. Totally dissolve 1 part dolomite in pH 7 water weighed carefully. Get the pH for our records. I'd boil the crap out of it myself. Make a batch lot so you can experiment. Add to it 1 and 1/3 parts citric acid, warm it up in the sun, shake it up, add energy so it reacts and dissolves completely.

Get pH, this might be close to 7. If it's not I should be able to work out the difference. Or you could with trial and error.

Go for 5% volume dolomite at first, we want complete dissolution.

No 'technical' there! LOL!!!!!

Give it to me in 'simpleton'.
 

MrFista

Active member
Veteran
LOL - never mind I love your name SCROG McDuck. Do you swim in a big vault of buds? YEAH!

OK. The simplified version version two.

Dissolve one part (by weight) dolomite completely in water. This should be finely screened, and completely dissolved. Then add 1 and 1/3 parts citric acid. Test pH.

Get back to me with result.

Work in Progress...
 
I use citric acid to drop the Ph of my flushing water. It works fine for me and it's cheap. $5.00 worth is enough to last a year.
 

Clackamas Coot

Active member
Veteran
Making Cheese

Making Cheese

Verdant Green

I was reading a cookbook by Rick Bayless (pretty famous top Mexican chef) and there was a recipe about making queso fresca - pretty much the same thing as Italian ricotta

At any rate, the milk is inoculated with bacteria from buttermilk and then citric acid is added and the mix is heated and that heat is maintained for a specific period of time. The citric acid causes the curds to separate from the whey.

Drain for a few hours in cheesecloth and viola! You've got cheese.

How this applies to MrFista's science I'm not too sure - but there it is!

LOL

CC
 

heady blunts

prescription blunts
Veteran
very interesting VG. thanks for the quality info! i have used cider vinegar for lowering my pH levels. i'll have to take this benefit of citric acid for increasing P uptake into consideration.

mr F layin down the knowledge. damn. it's been a while for me and org chem. i think my science brain has atrophied a bit since then...
 
Last edited:

MrFista

Active member
Veteran
CC - the cheese recipe, can you post it, I just sourced a raw organic supply of milk so want to make butter and cheese with some of it. YUM.
 

Clackamas Coot

Active member
Veteran
CC - the cheese recipe, can you post it, I just sourced a raw organic supply of milk so want to make butter and cheese with some of it. YUM.

Here's the deal from the Mexican chef master!

INGREDIENTS

1 gallon whole or 2% milk—preferably from a small local dairy with grassfed cows: the richer the flavor, the better the cheese

2 cups buttermilk

1 teaspoon citric acid (aka sour salt)*

OR 1 cup fresh lime juice

1 teaspoon salt (pure fine-ground sea salt works best here)

DIRECTIONS

1. Culture the milk. Pour the milk into a large (at least 8-quart) pot—I typically use an 8- quart enameled cast iron Dutch oven or a stainless steel 12-quart stock pot. Stir in the buttermilk, attach an accurate thermometer that registers temperatures as low as 75 degrees and set the pot over medium heat.

When the temperature reaches 75 degrees, turn off the heat, cover the pot and let stand 3 or 4 hours.

2. Set the curd. If using citric acid, stir it into 1/4 cup cool water, continuing to stir until dissolved. Uncover the pot, set over medium heat and stir in the dissolved citric acid or the fresh lime juice. You will immediately see small curds start to form. Every couple of minutes, stir slowly, gently and thoroughly over the entire bottom of the pot until the milk reaches 195 ̊F—it’ll take just over 20 minutes. At this point the curds will very obviously be floating in the milky-transparent whey.

Remove from the heat and let stand 5 minutes without stirring for all the curd.

3. Drain the curd from the whey. Wet a large piece of cheesecloth and drape it into a large colander. Set the colander in the sink. Using a large slotted spoon or a fine-mesh skimmer, carefully ladle all of the curd into the colander. Gather the cheesecloth up around the curd and gently press with the back of a large spoon to expel a bit more whey.

Unwrap the curd onto a plate, break it up and sprinkle with 1 teaspoon of the salt. Work in the salt with a spoon or your fingers.

4. Finish the cheese. Gather the cheese curds into a 1-inch-thick disk, transfer to a plate, cover and refrigerate until thoroughly chilled. The cheese should last about 1 week in the refrigerator.

That's it!

CC
 

Clackamas Coot

Active member
Veteran
The way that Chef Bayless used this cheese was as follows:

Take 3 or 4 large garlic cloves (leave the skin on for the first part) and 2 or 3 chili (he used serrano (sp?) chilis) and put them into a heavy skillet - like a cast-iron version.

Roast the garlic and chilies until they turn dark and release their perfume. Let them cool and remove the skins from the garlic and the stems from the chilies and dice and dice and dice - you don't want a puree but you want everything pretty small.

Add this to the cheese and mix well.

Then he took some banana squash blossoms (big deal in real Mexican cuisine) and he removed the pistal (sp?) because it has a bitter taste and he removed the stem. Then he chopped the blossoms - a rough chop is what you want, i.e. not diced.

Add that to the cheese & garlic/chili mix. Then put some into a soft tortilla and fold over like a taco, brush with some butter or oil and grill it until you get a nice color on both sides.

Pretty healthy vegetarian dish and it's really tasty!

CC
 
Top