True Terpenes VISCOSITY extract liquifier LAB TESTS: Mineral oil but no terps!!

p0opstlnksal0t said:

Interesting thoughts from drjackhughes on f4200
I heard about this today on future4200’s video.

So, we have a mystery. Is the diluent terpene/terpenoid or mineral oil...how about both!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pristane

It’s a terpenoid, colorless and odorless, good boiling range, just below guaiol, high end of the sesquiterpenes in Cannabis sativa, commercially available, and it’s from sharks! No one likes those prehistoric tubes of death...

I’m not saying that this is what they use, but there are a number of hydrocarbons that would be “terpenes”, in plants, that are in the same mass ranges of mineral oils.

I worked with steam stilled Cannabis Essential oil on the liter scale and wondered what was in it...

That led me to this: https://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp...f-cannabis.pdf

Follow to reference 35, pull that paper (there may be a better link...)

https://eurekamag.com/pdf/004/004697413.pdf

Conclusion: 0.7% content of higher alkanes in the essential oil.

If one was slinging random plant oil as cannabis and the perfume terps were too much, I guess one could pick any one of these compounds or a mixture and make a diluent. It would be natural; If the molecule was a terpenoid or terpene all the better.

Do I think they’re using mineral oil? Probably not...are they using an affordable, commercially available terpenoid alkane or mix that may originally be found in plants and animals? I’d bet my money in this area.

Does anyone have combustion analysis?

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Thanks. I asked the lab who did the most recent testing if there could be pristane in Viscosity, and here's his response:

Not that we could identify, could have been buried by the hump though.

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So even if there's pristane in there, it's in there with mineral oil. I will have the 4th lab I'm sending samples to look specifically for pristane.

I have a GC-MS chromatogram of pristane I will post later. I will compare it to the three chromatograms I have from the three tests I had done so far.

Combustion analysis isn't useful in this case. The only valid testing is GC-MS.

To all testers:


Please request the lab to specifically look for pristane, along with mineral oil and squalene as I mentioned before.

Sertaiz said:

cost benefit, and legality basically guarantee that any legal cost will be cut if they already wont tell us whats in the magic oil... because its trade protected and fda passed.

so if betting were legal i would bet on them sourcing their raw product as cheaply as possible while still maintaining fda standards.

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FDA is a smoke screen TT likes to throw out. The FDA doesn't license things like TT's company or facility. They don't do inspections unless there's a problem (like, say, selling people mineral oil and calling them terps). It's just that TT says they follow the required FDA rules for products like theirs.


HOWEVER, TT hides their real location. Which is against FDA rules for labels I assume, so I guess they don't even follow the real FDA rules. I challenge anyone to find TT's location, where they bottle their products. They are hiding their location, and that makes me wonder why.

dnb4ever said:

If ExtractNinja is "wrong", what is that implying exactly? Does that mean the test was fake, or does that mean that those batches are mineral oil?

I will tell you this; I'm not vaping another cartridge until the results are in on this, and if it's as bad as it seems, every single cart is suspect (except maybe like live rosin?).

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To me, that implies they use a terpene so similar to mineral oil that some of he world's best essential oil labs couldn't tell a difference. Or somehow they got mineral oil into the production line without knowing about it.


However, even if I'm wrong, what I wrote the other day is important:

I have been showing proof there's no terps and it's mineral oil for a long time now. But TT hasn't given a darn. It's clear they didn't (and seemingly don't) care that people are vaping mineral oil! They should have issued a stop sale and alerted EVERY customer if they actually cared. Just like a company that produces food items. And they should have taken random samples from their stock and gotten them tested by a few different labs the day after I posted. But they didn't, did they?

What did they do? They posted here denying it all, calling me names, and doing everything they can to say I'm wrong. That's what they did. And for that, SHAME ON THEM!

They didn't even post about their "investigation" until I posted another test (which found the same thing as the first two labs). More than 30 days. Which clearly shows they don't care at all about their customers vaping mineral oil, and only care about the effect on their brand when people find out.

Even if they are very bad at QC and ignorant, and if it was all the fault of their supplier (which I don't believe for a second), they didn't lift a finger to make sure they weren't inadvertently poisoning people. That to me is almost as bad as selling mineral oil and calling it terps. In either case TT is at fault and IMO should never be trusted for any product.

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I'm starting the reddit thread tonight

Gray Wolf said:

Most of us know neither entity, but this debate has spilled onto page 21 without resolution, so begs a new approach.

I noted that I was friends with one of their competitors, but didn't share that i consider another of their competitors a sociopath, capable of saying and doing about anything to serve his ends. The denizens of this forum know of whom I speak.

I noted that TT's reputation with key competitors is good, simply to note that the jury of their peers had not already delivered a verdict of most probable guilt, like they have with the person referenced above.

I also didn't note that I'm aware of at least some of the shenanigans played in the terpene marketplace, from my research, which included publishing Sweet Mary's Charms, I, II, and III, the former of which was reprinted in Terpenes and Testing Magazine.

My intervention here is simply to obtain a neutral third party sample and insure the chain of custody to a third party lab, whom will test to our criteria, not in any referee or judge position.

I will share the results to the extent that the tests answer the question before us, as opposed to actual proprietary content, unless those results open new questions with areas of concern.

The readership will have to draw their own conclusions from the empirical results. The person paying for the tests of course has the option of sharing under their own volition.

We also haven't heard from True Terpenes in this last exchange. Can ya'll suggest a list of places where we can randomly select a representative sample?

Any suggestions from your perspective on how to proceed?

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Nice. However, I wouldn't trust TT to tell you where to go, because they would likely do some shady thing like be on the lookout for you (you're easy to identify) and give you a bottle that doesn't include mineral oil. That's why I sent you a message and didn't publicly post addresses, so TT has no idea where you'll go.


We should not trust TT at all for this testing. They have the most to gain and loose. Nothing they say should be trusted IMO. I trust you, not TT.

p0opstlnksal0t said:

Thank you drjackhughes

Although it's not mass spec

Some more data points for the interested parties

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Yes, a GC-MS is necessary.



The updated post he wrote about GC test on future shows the same hump I posted from my 3rd test, and here's what that person wrote:

TT is in blue
Abstrax in red
I ran Absrax diluent on a hotter method and it had 1 main peak. The TT viscosity is like a fat bell curve of a mixture across 3 minutes (30 degrees on my method). I’ll post them overlaid in a sec.
True terpenes blend is the gnarliest thing I’ve ever seen on GC and used to do coal liquefaction…
Still doesn’t mean it’s mineral oil. it just looks like it on GC.

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Here are the chromatograms that I've had done, you can see the first two tests were higher resolution reports so the peaks looks more distinct.



I'm not chemist or GC guy, so if there are GC experts out there their comments are welcome. I uploaded the reports as PDFs from the first two labs.

p0opstlnksal0t said:

Thank you drjackhughes

Although it's not mass spec

Some more data points for the interested parties

Click to expand...

If you're a member there can you ask that guy to have his friend run mineral oil through the GC and post that? That would be useful to compare.


The third lab I used did just that and they said the hump (bell curve) from mineral oil is the same as from Viscosity.


Also, can you ask him if the Viscosity was unopened, and what the lot number is?

Like this?

[FONT=&quot]I’ve done a little ground work on obtaining a sample and locating a suitable laboratory, and find that TT doesn’t distribute through dispensaries, they are mail order. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I can have someone mail order or pick up a sample in N. Portland, as well as pick one up at a source identified by OP in SE Portland. As the cat is out of the bag, neither will be a double blind at this point, soooo I’ll do a couple different ways and we will have yet another comparison.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As far as labs, we don’t have to use the same one for all samples, and I’ve sent a query to my favorite Molecular Biologist, whose post doctorial research and thesis was in plant terpenes, asking if he was available for testing. If he’s not available, I asked him to recommend the best lab for our purpose. More when I hear back.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My reasoning for doing so, is that some consideration is called for with regard to what mineral oil is and where it came from, as well as signatures?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is typically extracted from crude oil, where it was originally deposited by plants. The simple Alkanes, as well as the aromatic Alkenes (terpenes) are both common in plants. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alkanes and Alkenes from crude oil have of course also been exposed/mixed with toxic components from some plants, as well from Mother Earth, plus heat and pressure, so crude oil is more of a witch’s brew. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
In my article, Sweet Mary’s Charms II, I discuss a summary of the extensive work done in the paper Constituents of Cannabis Sativa L XVII, A Review of the Natural Constituents, by Turner, Elsohly, and Boeren at the Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi.
They identified 421 compounds from the cannabis plant alone, including C-9 through C-39 simple Alkanes, so even if it was a “mineral oil”, it’s origin is not necessarily certain.

If possible I would like to use at least one of the labs familiar with the differences, as well an intimate knowledge of all the plant terpenes.

Future4200 said:

Like this?

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I'll check that out. I am looking for a chromatogram that is made using the same protocol as the other testing I've had done.


I'm uploading the full size chromatogram from the 3rd test I had done soon. Plus some more info and context generally.

Gray Wolf said:

[FONT=&quot]I’ve done a little ground work on obtaining a sample and locating a suitable laboratory, and find that TT doesn’t distribute through dispensaries, they are mail order. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I can have someone mail order or pick up a sample in N. Portland, as well as pick one up at a source identified by OP in SE Portland. As the cat is out of the bag, neither will be a double blind at this point, soooo I’ll do a couple different ways and we will have yet another comparison.[/FONT]

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[FONT=&quot]Sweet great plan GW. I'd happy your picking up samples locally because I've already tested mail order, and Old Gold is testing mail order, and Future is testing mail order. Would be important to get an older sample from a store I think.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I'm willing to pay for the bottles and testing if you don't want to. You of course would have full control of everything.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Gray Wolf said:

As far as labs, we don’t have to use the same one for all samples, and I’ve sent a query to my favorite Molecular Biologist, whose post doctorial research and thesis was in plant terpenes, asking if he was available for testing. If he’s not available, I asked him to recommend the best lab for our purpose. More when I hear back.

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[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I used three different labs just in case one lab had bad lab practices. All three came to the exact same conclusion: mineral oil and no terps.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I agree testing a different labs is the best idea and gives TT the best chance of not being scoundrels. I don't want to be right, and I've given TT the benefit of the doubt originally, as well as doing my best to do legit and unbiased testing.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If I expect my posts to be taken seriously I know I need to be as unbiased as possible.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There aren't a lot of labs that do this type of testing and are good at it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Gray Wolf said:

My reasoning for doing so, is that some consideration is called for with regard to what mineral oil is and where it came from, as well as signatures?

It is typically extracted from crude oil, where it was originally deposited by plants. The simple Alkanes, as well as the aromatic Alkenes (terpenes) are both common in plants.

Alkanes and Alkenes from crude oil have of course also been exposed/mixed with toxic components from some plants, as well from Mother Earth, plus heat and pressure, so crude oil is more of a witch’s brew.

In my article, Sweet Mary’s Charms II, I discuss a summary of the extensive work done in the paper Constituents of Cannabis Sativa L XVII, A Review of the Natural Constituents, by Turner, Elsohly, and Boeren at the Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi.
They identified 421 compounds from the cannabis plant alone, including C-9 through C-39 simple Alkanes, so even if it was a “mineral oil”, it’s origin is not necessarily certain.

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
The first lab I used for testing told me they think the mineral oil is some type of isoparaffin oil. C13-14 ioparaffin is a mixture of hydrocarbons (mineral oils) derived from petroleum.

The third lab I used went to a store and bought mineral oil (from petroium). They tested it then compared that chromatogram to the chromatogram of Viscosity. Here's there's conclusion:

"Unlike the label claim, this product contains 0 Terpenes or other volitile compounds. When compared to food grade mineral oil the chromatographs match, because of this we believe this sample appears to be mineral oil."

Gray Wolf said:

If possible I would like to use at least one of the labs familiar with the differences, as well an intimate knowledge of all the plant terpenes.

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All of those labs I listed fit that mold except Im not sure about [FONT=&quot]identifying sources of alkenes[/FONT]. All they do is essential oil and terpene testing for constituent identification and purity testing for QC by companies.

Especially Dr. Pappas at Essential Oil University. He also sells CBD tinctures, so he's keyed into this industry. He's the go to guy for this type of testing, and he's an expert witness in trials regarding essential oil testing and claims. I'm sure you can ask the terpene company you are associated with about him and they will tell you the same.

Here are his findings and the full report so you can give it to your post doc friend. Dr. Pappas also wrote it does not contain squalene, I didn't ask him about pristane. However, if pristane is in there, it may be the "heavy, non-volatile, odorless material" Dr. Pappas mentioned, and the other two labs also found the same thing but couldn't identify it. The important part is all three labs found mineral oil and no terps:

Dr. Pappas:

The sample did not show any signs of terpenes in the mixture. The sample is a blend of some very heavy, non-volatile, odorless material, along with some mineral oil.

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https://www.docdroid.net/yUosBpk/viscosity-extract-liquifier-18129601-1.pdf

Gray Wolf said:

[FONT=&quot]My reasoning for doing so, is that some consideration is called for with regard to what mineral oil is and where it came from, as well as signatures?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is typically extracted from crude oil, where it was originally deposited by plants. The simple Alkanes, as well as the aromatic Alkenes (terpenes) are both common in plants. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alkanes and Alkenes from crude oil have of course also been exposed/mixed with toxic components from some plants, as well from Mother Earth, plus heat and pressure, so crude oil is more of a witch’s brew. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
In my article, Sweet Mary’s Charms II, I discuss a summary of the extensive work done in the paper Constituents of Cannabis Sativa L XVII, A Review of the Natural Constituents, by Turner, Elsohly, and Boeren at the Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi.
They identified 421 compounds from the cannabis plant alone, including C-9 through C-39 simple Alkanes, so even if it was a “mineral oil”, it’s origin is not necessarily certain.

Click to expand...

Are you suggesting it's any healthier vaping mineral oil from plants than vaping mineral oil from petroleum (crude oil)?

The first lab I used for testing told me they think the mineral oil is some type of isoparaffin oil. C13-14 ioparaffin is a mixture of hydrocarbons (mineral oils) derived from petroleum.

The third lab I used went to a store and bought mineral oil (from petroium). They tested it then compared that chromatogram to the chromatogram of Viscosity. Here's there's conclusion:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Unlike the label claim, this product contains 0 Terpenes or other volitile compounds. When compared to food grade mineral oil the chromatographs match, because of this we believe this sample appears to be mineral oil.

Click to expand...

[/FONT]

3rd GC-MS lab test of Viscosity from the 3rd lab:

Ran the sample and took a look. No terpenes whatsoever. We want to do additional tests and look further into this before we release results. What I can say is that their claims do not appear to be correct online.

Will get back to you probably next week depending on how the additional tests go.

My gut is that you may be right, that there may be mineral oil in there. – No Squalene was found.

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YUP! Pretty much confirmed it today. We ran a sample of mineral oil from the store against it, and the same kind of large hump appeared.

I looks like it is just mineral oil, no terpenes or anything else. Maybe something added to make a lower viscosity that is nonvolitile.

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Report Conclusion:

Unlike the label claim, this product contains 0 Terpenes or other volitile compounds. When compared to food grade mineral oil the chromatographs match, because of this we believe this sample appears to be mineral oil.

Click to expand...

3rd party who GC tested Viscosity (not me):



Notice how that hump from above looks very much like the bell curve hump posted in the following pic.



This person didn't list the batch number or whether it was unopened before testing or any other context.

TT is in blue
Abstrax in red

I ran Absrax diluent on a hotter method and it had 1 main peak. The TT viscosity is like a fat bell curve of a mixture across 3 minutes (30 degrees on my method). I’ll post them overlaid in a sec.

True terpenes blend is the gnarliest thing I’ve ever seen on GC and used to do coal liquefaction…

Still doesn’t mean it’s mineral oil, it just looks like it on GC.

Click to expand...

Reddit version of this thread, make it hot!

Reddit version of this thread, make it hot!

dnb4ever said:

ExtractNinja: you need to re-post this on reddit in the /r/cannabisextracts subreddit as it's own thread. You posted this info in a long dead thread. Reddit does not work the same as most other forum type websites in that your reply to something does not bump it to the top. Therefore, no one on reddit saw what you posted. I sent you a message about this on that platform. Let me know if you need assistance in posting this properly so more people see it (and possibly help you validate your tests).

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Thanks for the tip! Here's the Reddit version of this thread, a good summation of most points!

Please help keep it up top of the Reddit group /r/CannabisExtracts!

https://www.reddit.com/r/CannabisEx...rue_terpenes_viscosity_extract_liquifier_lab/

Gray Wolf said:

[FONT=&quot]I’ve done a little ground work on obtaining a sample and locating a suitable laboratory, and find that TT doesn’t distribute through dispensaries, they are mail order. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I can have someone mail order or pick up a sample in N. Portland, as well as pick one up at a source identified by OP in SE Portland. As the cat is out of the bag, neither will be a double blind at this point, soooo I’ll do a couple different ways and we will have yet another comparison.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As far as labs, we don’t have to use the same one for all samples, and I’ve sent a query to my favorite Molecular Biologist, whose post doctorial research and thesis was in plant terpenes, asking if he was available for testing. If he’s not available, I asked him to recommend the best lab for our purpose. More when I hear back.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My reasoning for doing so, is that some consideration is called for with regard to what mineral oil is and where it came from, as well as signatures?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It is typically extracted from crude oil, where it was originally deposited by plants. The simple Alkanes, as well as the aromatic Alkenes (terpenes) are both common in plants. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alkanes and Alkenes from crude oil have of course also been exposed/mixed with toxic components from some plants, as well from Mother Earth, plus heat and pressure, so crude oil is more of a witch’s brew. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
In my article, Sweet Mary’s Charms II, I discuss a summary of the extensive work done in the paper Constituents of Cannabis Sativa L XVII, A Review of the Natural Constituents, by Turner, Elsohly, and Boeren at the Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi.
They identified 421 compounds from the cannabis plant alone, including C-9 through C-39 simple Alkanes, so even if it was a “mineral oil”, it’s origin is not necessarily certain.

If possible I would like to use at least one of the labs familiar with the differences, as well an intimate knowledge of all the plant terpenes.

Click to expand...

This is a point I would like to see the OP address.

Mineral oil comes from plants. Cannabis itself has compounds similar to mineral oil. Seems reasonable that a plant based compound might look like "mineral oil"?

Future4200 said:

Originally Posted by Gray Wolf View Post
I’ve done a little ground work on obtaining a sample and locating a suitable laboratory, and find that TT doesn’t distribute through dispensaries, they are mail order.

I can have someone mail order or pick up a sample in N. Portland, as well as pick one up at a source identified by OP in SE Portland. As the cat is out of the bag, neither will be a double blind at this point, soooo I’ll do a couple different ways and we will have yet another comparison.

As far as labs, we don’t have to use the same one for all samples, and I’ve sent a query to my favorite Molecular Biologist, whose post doctorial research and thesis was in plant terpenes, asking if he was available for testing. If he’s not available, I asked him to recommend the best lab for our purpose. More when I hear back.

My reasoning for doing so, is that some consideration is called for with regard to what mineral oil is and where it came from, as well as signatures?

It is typically extracted from crude oil, where it was originally deposited by plants. The simple Alkanes, as well as the aromatic Alkenes (terpenes) are both common in plants.

Alkanes and Alkenes from crude oil have of course also been exposed/mixed with toxic components from some plants, as well from Mother Earth, plus heat and pressure, so crude oil is more of a witch’s brew.

In my article, Sweet Mary’s Charms II, I discuss a summary of the extensive work done in the paper Constituents of Cannabis Sativa L XVII, A Review of the Natural Constituents, by Turner, Elsohly, and Boeren at the Research Institute of Pharmaceutical Sciences, School of Pharmacy, University of Mississippi.
They identified 421 compounds from the cannabis plant alone, including C-9 through C-39 simple Alkanes, so even if it was a “mineral oil”, it’s origin is not necessarily certain.

If possible I would like to use at least one of the labs familiar with the differences, as well an intimate knowledge of all the plant terpenes.

Click to expand...

This is a point I would like to see the OP address. Mineral oil comes from plants. Cannabis itself has compounds similar to mineral oil. Seems reasonable that a plant based compound might look like "mineral oil"?

Click to expand...

I already did, and it's not good for TT because two labs so far have said they think it's derived from petroleum.

GW and I are busy in the back ground planning the next round of testing. I already shared lots of info with him and he's planning to find a lab that can tell the difference between the two.

GW's testing may take 2-3 weeks.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8522527&postcount=231


Are you suggesting it's any healthier vaping mineral oil from plants than vaping mineral oil from petroleum (crude oil)?


The first lab I used for testing told me they think the mineral oil is some type of isoparaffin oil. C13-14 ioparaffin is a mixture of hydrocarbons (mineral oils) derived from petroleum.

The third lab I used went to a store and bought mineral oil (from petroium). They tested it then compared that chromatogram to the chromatogram of Viscosity. Here's there's conclusion:

"Unlike the label claim, this product contains 0 Terpenes or other volitile compounds. When compared to food grade mineral oil the chromatographs match, because of this we believe this sample appears to be mineral oil."

Click to expand...

ExtractNinja said:

Are you suggesting it's any healthier vaping mineral oil from plants than vaping mineral oil from petroleum (crude oil)?



I'm not suggesting anything, simply noting that both plants and crude oil contain simple alkanes and alkenes, so finding either isn't definitive.


The first lab I used for testing told me they think the mineral oil is some type of isoparaffin oil. C13-14 ioparaffin is a mixture of hydrocarbons (mineral oils) derived from petroleum.

The third lab I used went to a store and bought mineral oil (from petroium). They tested it then compared that chromatogram to the chromatogram of Viscosity. Here's there's conclusion:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]


View Image

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In blue above.


I've picked up one sample and am arranging the second.

Excellent.I didn't think you were suggesting that, just wanted to check. Love that your working on this.

Nice to see some familiar faces in this thread.....geez this dont look good whether its mineral oil or not. Really interested to see the results on this and havent seen many TT commercials on my youtube videos lately.....Was getting tired of the forbidden fruit commercials all the time!....LOL

Who wants to vape mineral oil?