EC problem

Bluntpower · Aug 8, 2017

Hello again,

I've ran into a new problem, the runoff of certain pots is coming out lower than what's going in since the last 2 feedings.
I always test the runoff PH, and now also tested the EC of it.
This has started happening since the switch to flowering nuts.

Setup:
15L pots in 50/50 Coco/Perlite
Feeding every 2 days with nuts as recommended.

Feeding:
Plagron products
Water 50/50 Tapwater/RO water which ends up @ 0.5EC
Cocos A&B + Green Sensation both half strength (autoflowers)
Sugar Royal 1x/week also half strength.
1.3EC, 5.7PH, 24°C

Runoff:
Plant 1 >> 4.9PH, 23°C, 2.0EC
Plant 2 >> 5.6PH, 23°C, 2.1EC
Plant 3 >> 6.0PH, 23°C, 1.4EC
Plant 4 >> 6.0PH, 23°C, 2.1EC

The only plant that looks amazing is nr3, followed by nr1, 2&4 both look droopy, top of the plants lighter than the others, buds way smaller.
All tests ran with bluelab pens, properly calibrated or should i say re-calibrated just to be sure that's not the issue.

I don't have the necessary experience to know what to do right now since i have no clue what causes the problem

I've searched the net but as usual find multiple possible causes so any help would be much appreciated.

Thx in advance
Blunt

BakedBandit · Aug 8, 2017

Seems like the good one is eating much more than the other 3 to me. Maybe feed the other 3 less for a little bit?

OG_NoMan · Aug 8, 2017

Lower your feed EC and make sure the feed is between 5.8-6.2 P.H. always run nutes none of this feed one day not the next. I think you are screwing up the cat ion exchange by running plain water and this is causing lock out. Just my .02 good luck.

HqFarms · Aug 8, 2017

If ph rises or lowers less than .5 your girls are doing good. There is a relationship between run off ph and ec. A ph drop of .7 can indicate your girls are getting over fed and there is more nutrients i.e. salts built up in your medium which would also show a higher ec because of the excess salts built up and getting washed out. Excess salts lower ph.

Are some plants getting more run off than others? If you're experiencing deficiencies it's because of lock out/ nutrient toxicity.

From looking at your pictures everything looks happy feeding every two days seems like not enough and your coco is drying out causing salt build up. Get yourself a moisture meter and keep them moist, not wet. The 4-6 range is perfect.

Bluntpower · Aug 8, 2017

BakedBandit said:
Seems like the good one is eating much more than the other 3 to me. Maybe feed the other 3 less for a little bit?

Yeah one is hungrier than the rest good point

Bluntpower · Aug 8, 2017

OG_NoMan said:
Lower your feed EC and make sure the feed is between 5.8-6.2 P.H. always run nutes none of this feed one day not the next. I think you are screwing up the cat ion exchange by running plain water and this is causing lock out. Just my .02 good luck.

I've never given plain water, the nuts say with every watering and that is what i've done so far, not sure why you think i did that

Thx for your input anyway m8 cheers.

Bluntpower · Aug 8, 2017

HqFarms said:
If ph rises or lowers less than .5 your girls are doing good. There is a relationship between run off ph and ec. A ph drop of .7 can indicate your girls are getting over fed and there is more nutrients i.e. salts built up in your medium which would also show a higher ec because of the excess salts built up and getting washed out. Excess salts lower ph.

This helped me understand the problem much better, everything is exactly what happens, i even noted everything down, cheers for that

For the entire veg period i had nothing like this, it started happening after the switch to flowering nutes.
Water always went in @ 5.5ph (as recommended) and always came out between 6.0 and 6.2ph which seemed perfect to me.
Never checked the EC of the runoff before tho, didn't know that was a thing

Are some plants getting more run off than others? If you're experiencing deficiencies it's because of lock out/ nutrient toxicity.

Yes that happens a lot, they all get exact same amount of water, but runoffs that are supposed to be 10-30% are more around 0-20%
Is that also a sign of something maybe..?

From looking at your pictures everything looks happy feeding every two days seems like not enough and your coco is drying out causing salt build up. Get yourself a moisture meter and keep them moist, not wet. The 4-6 range is perfect.

They are not looking happy trust me, only nr3 is doing great, that plant has side colas that are bigger than the main cola of 2 other plants (2&4) just to give you an idea..

Upping the water frequency i'll do that starting tomorrow as they've already been fed today.
I'm not letting them dry out completely tho, they are 15L pots after all (3 and 3/4 Gallon)
The medium has never shrunken and pots still have some weight in them.

And for the moisture meter i didn't even know they existed so cheers

I just took a look at my store and they have this one, that's what you meant..?
17€ a piece so i prefer to be sure before ordering 4..

OG_NoMan · Aug 8, 2017

Bluntpower said:
I've never given plain water, the nuts say with every watering and that is what i've done so far, not sure why you think i did that

Thx for your input anyway m8 cheers.

My bad I read it like that. So your problem is definitely salt building up. You need to be watering till run off or close to it at least twice a day your ec should be about 1.0 give or take depending on strain ph should drift between what I said earlier. By the end of flowering I am feed ing 5-6 times a day during lights on. Good luck brother :tiphat:

Also I wouldn't follow any directions by manufacturers or hydro stores as they want to sell stuff. This site has been the biggest wealth of info and the only place I trust.

HqFarms · Aug 8, 2017

Yes that's the meter. They also make one that is just moisture. The ph part of that meter is very inaccurate.

10% -30% is all you need for runoff. You can also do no runoff but that means you have to run even lower ec.

I person ph my water for coco from 5.8-6.4. It also depends on which cycle they are in. For veg I stay better 5.8-6.0, early flower 5.9-6.1, mid flower 6.0-6.2, late flower 6.2-6.4. I change ph because at different ranges nutrients are absorbed differently. Also because as nutrients build up some ph lowers in you media.

Please keep in mind there is more than one way to skin a cat and there are so many variables to account for. What works for me might not work for you. Good luck brotha.

OG_NoMan · Aug 8, 2017

HqFarms said:
Yes that's the meter. They also make one that is just moisture. The ph part of that meter is very inaccurate.

10% -30% is all you need for runoff. You can also do no runoff but that means you have to run even lower ec.

I person ph my water for coco from 5.8-6.4. It also depends on which cycle they are in. For veg I stay better 5.8-6.0, early flower 5.9-6.1, mid flower 6.0-6.2, late flower 6.2-6.4. I change ph because at different ranges nutrients are absorbed differently. Also because as nutrients build up some ph lowers in you media.

Please keep in mind there is more than one way to skin a cat and there are so many variables to account for. What works for me might not work for you. Good luck brotha.

I do almost identical to what you do and have great results. I am putting in RO this fall so I can try to run with no run off.

Bluntpower · Aug 9, 2017

OG_NoMan said:
So your problem is definitely salt building up. You need to be watering till run off or close to it at least twice a day your ec should be about 1.0 give or take depending on strain ph should drift between what I said earlier.

Yes i'm gonna start to run some plain water through those 3 that have 2.0EC runoff before giving any new feeding.
I'm only allowed to give 1.4EC max so that's a problem for sure, at this point i'm happy they're still alive tbh..[/quote]

By the end of flowering I am feed ing 5-6 times a day during lights on. Good luck brother

Wow that's a lot, i've clearly not watered them enough than if that's normal

Also I wouldn't follow any directions by manufacturers or hydro stores as they want to sell stuff. This site has been the biggest wealth of info and the only place I trust.

I've already learned that the hard way with store owners..
Manufacturers on the other hand are very helpfull or at least Plagron is, they helped me out find the problem i had in veg.
I was using RO water thinking that was the best, while the products were made to be used with 0.5EC tapwater

Thx for your help i now at least know where to start! :woohoo:

Bluntpower · Aug 9, 2017

HqFarms said:
Yes that's the meter. They also make one that is just moisture. The ph part of that meter is very inaccurate.

Cool i'm gonna look into that this afternoon thx.

10% -30% is all you need for runoff. You can also do no runoff but that means you have to run even lower ec.

I sometimes have some plants that have no runoff at all while getting the same amount of water as usual, doesn't happen often but still does, is that also a sign of something fishy maybe..?

I person ph my water for coco from 5.8-6.4. It also depends on which cycle they are in. For veg I stay better 5.8-6.0, early flower 5.9-6.1, mid flower 6.0-6.2, late flower 6.2-6.4. I change ph because at different ranges nutrients are absorbed differently. Also because as nutrients build up some ph lowers in you media.

This is once again golden info, noted down everything cheers

Loc Dog · Aug 9, 2017

To bring down EC/PPM use half strength with something like FloraKleen, till it is correct. Buy a couple of cheap yellow and black PH meters on e-bay, and get 7 and 4 PH test solution for calibration. Those meters you have are a joke, for accuracy. I check runoff about once a week.

Bluntpower · Aug 9, 2017

Loc Dog said:
To bring down EC/PPM use half strength with something like FloraKleen, till it is correct. Buy a couple of cheap yellow and black PH meters on e-bay, and get 7 and 4 PH test solution for calibration. Those meters you have are a joke, for accuracy. I check runoff about once a week.

Throw away my bluelab pens and buy cheap ones on Ebay..? :O
I guess you were talking about those things to put in the pots..?

It's someone else that advised to get a couple of those to keep track of MOISTURE lvl, he also said that the ph meter on it is very inaccurate

I'll look into that florakleen that seems a good one to have in the house

I live in a godforsaken hellhole, there is no store here i have to order everything online, if i order something now i won't have it before monday.

I'm busy running plain water through them now @ different ph lvl's to try and get that ec down, i'll post every thing i did when i'm done

Thx for the help

OG_NoMan · Aug 9, 2017

Don't run clean water use a low EC feed somewhere around .8 ec

Junk · Aug 9, 2017

Bluntpower said:
This helped me understand the problem much better, everything is exactly what happens, i even noted everything down, cheers for that

For the entire veg period i had nothing like this, it started happening after the switch to flowering nutes.
Water always went in @ 5.5ph (as recommended) and always came out between 6.0 and 6.2ph which seemed perfect to me.
Never checked the EC of the runoff before tho, didn't know that was a thing

Yes that happens a lot, they all get exact same amount of water, but runoffs that are supposed to be 10-30% are more around 0-20%
Is that also a sign of something maybe..?

They are not looking happy trust me, only nr3 is doing great, that plant has side colas that are bigger than the main cola of 2 other plants (2&4) just to give you an idea..

Upping the water frequency i'll do that starting tomorrow as they've already been fed today.
I'm not letting them dry out completely tho, they are 15L pots after all (3 and 3/4 Gallon)
The medium has never shrunken and pots still have some weight in them.

And for the moisture meter i didn't even know they existed so cheers
I just took a look at my store and they have this one, that's what you meant..?
17€ a piece so i prefer to be sure before ordering 4..
View Image

Not sure if I'm too late, but you can find them much cheaper than that. And like the person said don't bother with the PH ones. It's a total waste of money bc it's not useful at all. I have one like that, and I don't think it's ever worked.

"You need to be watering till run off or close to it at least twice a day"

Really?!?! I've stayed away from coco bc in general, it seems like more work, but watering several times a day? If the nutes work in a rez, I'd set up feed lines, a pump, and a timer lol. I'm tired just listening to what you have to do.

Bluntpower · Aug 9, 2017

OG_NoMan said:
Don't run clean water use a low EC feed somewhere around .8 ec

I did the 3 with clean water first to get that EC runoff lower, i'll maybe give them the light feeding you suggested later tonight.
First i'd like to understand why i'm supposed to feed them now

I poured water in, but the runoff was 1.2ec for those 3, so it's not like they don't have food, my target EC for now is between 1.2 and 1.4 so they have what they need..?
What am i missing

This is the results:

Runoffs from yesterday again to compare, these all went in @ 5.7ph
1 >> 4.9ph - 2.0ec
2 >> 5.6ph - 2.1ec
3 >> 6.0ph - 1.4ec
4 >> 6.0ph - 2.1ec

Runoffs after todays flushing with 0.5ec water
1 >> 6.4ph in, 5.6ph out - 1.2ec
2 >> 6.3ph in, 6.1ph out - 1.2ec
3 >> Just fed this one 5.9ph - 1.0ec >> Runoff >> 6.2ph - 1.3ec
4 >> 5.8ph in, 6.5ph out - 1.2ec

Based on the numbers i got from HQfarms i'm now in mid flower so 6.0 - 6.2ph would be best, if i did understand well they now all have acces to those numbers

Bluntpower · Aug 9, 2017

Junk said:
Not sure if I'm too late, but you can find them much cheaper than that. And like the person said don't bother with the PH ones. It's a total waste of money bc it's not useful at all. I have one like that, and I don't think it's ever worked.

They only have that one where i usually buy my stuff, i'll have a look further for the moisture only ones thx

maimunji · Aug 9, 2017

15 ltr pots with coco is overkill for your size plants and tent.
You can grow one plant in this size pots and she will fill tent completely.
Im almoust sure run off numbers isn't part of the problems but will be interesting to see

Bluntpower · Aug 9, 2017

maimunji said:
15 ltr pots with coco is overkill for your size plants and tent.
You can grow one plant in this size pots and she will fill tent completely.
Im almoust sure run off numbers isn't part of the problems but will be interesting to see

I had 7 to start with

It's my very first grow so i chose more plants in case one dies or something so i'm not left with nothing.
The 3 others one died and 2 are outside.
Next time i'll defenetely get smaller pots.

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