Mag def? and & claws

Hey Guys,
I already posted the problem in the Let's see and hear about your sick plants!! thread, but its getting worse so fast, so I had to open a new Topic about it

Light: 600W+250W MH 1m above Plats

Clones are sitting in 2" Netpots, with roots free hanging down.

Flooding time: 6min (after 4:30min the waterfall from the drain gets me some air into the res below)
draining time: 9 min
I flood and drain the whole time, so the roots are not getting dry.



I mix tap and osmosis Water, to an EC between 0,2 and 0,3.
then i add Hy-Pro Hydro 2part fertilizer, till I get EC 0,6. (seems low, but higher and i get claws, also the clone supplierer told me to start with an EC as low as 0,7).
I start with an pH of 5.5, but its climbing to 6.5 on the same day.

Temp:76-78°F and humidity: arround 60%

heres a healty looking clone, planted in lightmix.


And now the sick looking hydro ones.





Hope you can help me, more pics of sick plants in the next post because the 5 pic limit.

greets lectron

So why not just up base its looks like they are very hungry my clones under 125 w cfl takes 650 ppm. 1.3 ec. Ignore claws and up feed.

You have a low PH going on that is causing your leaf "clawing". You can see the leaf surface, how it looks wrinkled. Go and feel those leaves and they will feel like they have a texture to them.

You're getting the clawing at the higher EC due to your low PH level that you are feeding them at.

Then if your starting EC is between .2 and .3, then you add nutrients to reach an EC of .6, you are barely feeding them any thing. With lets nutrients in the water the PH will swing more like you mentioned.

Add more nutrients in and bring your PH up by at least .5 PH. I find 6.2 to be ideal in my aeroponic and hydroponic systems.

@[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]maimunji
Iḿ totally your opinion. My Rule of the Thumb (before osmosis) was starting with 1.2 in my old NFT System. But got told two times from the clone-manufacturer, to aim for this low EC (max 0.8)
I spent a lot for the CBD clones, and now now support how to handle them is virtually non existent. Set and forget -.-


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Ganoderma said:

You're getting the clawing at the higher EC due to your low PH level that you are feeding them at.

Add more nutrients in and bring your PH up by at least .5 PH. I find 6.2 to be ideal in my aeroponic and hydroponic systems.

Click to expand...

Ignore the clawing? always thought claws are a sign of feeding to much.
But the new sprouts on the top could be a way more dark-green.


And now the funny Part...:
the def. and yellowing hasnt apeared because the lack of nutrients; the roots are (imo, after many hours ICmag-searches) the problem.

I pulled a few netpots from the table and found a correlation... I think its root rot.

Sick looking Plant + root-shot




"good" looking plant for comparison



I already been at the hydro-store a few hours ago, for Mykorrhizza fungi.
Now I am also equipped withION-Quest Hydro Safe (Colloidal Silver),
lactobacillus biotics, H2O2 and Dankklorix (Natriumhypochloride).

Now I have to figure out how to clean the roots/kill the rot, and the get some probiotical fungi and bacterias into my Res.

The sickest looking Clones will leave the Flood/Drain Table, to not reinfect the good looking ones. hopefully some of them recover after beeing planted in lightmix.

greets lectron

They look hungry to me too... They are starting to cannibalize themselves, pulling nutrients from the big battery cells called fan leaves. Should be able to handle 1.2-1.4 EC no problem... Also, loose the whole cube, perlite, hydroton thing you got going on.. I think that might be adding to some of your problems, plus it looks like a mess to deal with. I see a lot of brown shit on the top of those cups... as above, so below... Looks like algae and some other funky stuff. Not a good start for those girls. The top should be dry, never wet. I would just use hydroton & rockwol/rapid rooters in your setup and be done with it. Loose the ver/perlite and make sure the cube is covered by the balls and the holes of the net pot are covered as well.

I would start there and clean all of them off with tap water and remove the perlite and put layer of hydroton on the botton of it and place your rapid rooter on top of that and cover it and expect them to take a week or two to get some new root growth going and getting back on track... the plant will definitely respond to this! Might want to clean the res too... You got a lot of work ahead of you!

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Nutrients are acids. Acids lower the pH. The pH is rising because the plants are removing the acids/plant feed from the nutrient solution making the pH rise. It's a good thing. In a healthy DWC you should see pH increase and EC decrease.

Take the advice of the other posters here. You plants are starving and need food.

Is the healthy one on the same feed strength and frequency?

Maybe...just maybe... the plants are deficent because they cant take up all the food they need with those rotted roots.

Plus microbes, more dry time maybe a peroxide rinse?

I dunno Im still tryna figure this all out, but thats my 2 cents.

Hope we all can learn something from this thread.

1. about the EC and pH
I upped it to 0,9 and the ne groth seems to look more dark green. wanna up to 1,2 in small steps, to keep stress low.

I am using a Bluelab combo meter, and found out 1 ms/cm is 500ppm in USA, 640 in Europe and 700 in Australia.
So my now 0,9, could be (depending an the meters the US growers a using) your 1,2


my ph is now much more stable. but I got some Mineral Magic delivered at Friday, so I cannot say if its cause of the stronger feeding or not.
I set the pH to 5,9 at 18°c Water Temp, and put frozen waterbottles in the res from time to time, to keep the temp down.
Res Temp was never over 22°c btw.

The Plants in the Table near the front and the left side-wall looked sicker than the others. heres an example. O is good, X is bad
XOOOO
XOOOO
XOOOO
XXXXX

I pulled the 20 sickest looking plants out of the system, and left the "X-locations" free. Covered the holes light tight with 2 layers of white tape.
Looks like higher temps on the sides where light coud reach the Flood table.

Root Rot Treatment
Every Plant got pulled out.
The brown roots could be pulled off very easy, so I´m pretty sure i got root rot. Tried to get loose of all the brown roots.
Then they got rinsed and submerged many times in a chlorine-solution. After that every clone sat 30min in a quick built chlorine bubbler.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=76665&pictureid=1841111
then they got cleaned two times in tap water.
By this process a lot of the perlite got also washed out, and have been not filled up again.

while the plants were out of the system, it got desinfected.

the 20 ugliest and 6 good looking clones got planted in small containers, containing Lightmix I mixed with fresh Mychorizza spores. I dont want them to spread the pest all again in the recirculating system

I also installed two airstones. one in the res, and the other in the flood Table, to make it a littlwe bit a DWC-kind

EC is a universal measurement regardless if one is using the .5 or .7 ppm conversion. PPM measurement will be different using the .5 or .7 but the EC will be the same.

Part 2

I´ve added 50ml of 11% H2O2 to the system every few days since the beginning. Never had root problems when growing on NFT Tables in the past. No idea why the desease could spread.

The flood and drain setup was planned to be used only till the roots reach down arround 4". Then they will get transplanted into a "heath robinson - style" vertical system. But instead his so called high flow DWC, I plan it to be a NFT in 4" Pipes.
Horizontal -NFT with Pipes the same diameter worked perfectly. Clones came in rockwool cubes. got placed in 2" Netpots + a little bit cocos arround them, with a hemp chord hanging down to the bottom of the pipe ->passive-hydro till the roots reach down the missing 2 inches

The systems parameters atm.

• Tap/OW EC 0.2 140l
• 2 teaspoons Mineral Magic
• Hy-pro instead of Canna nutrients (I´ve read less N is good for controlling root rot)
• extra Mag. against the strongest def.
• chlorine instead of H2O2 (switch explained in next point)
• cannyzym to degrade the organic parts floating around thanks to the chlorine (Cannazym shouldnt be used parallel to H2O2, literally written on the bottle)
• Hydrosafe from Ion Quest aka. Colloidal Silver (works antibiotic) (has anybody used this super expensive 20ppm silverwater?)

Every plant got foliar feed with NPK + extra Mag. at a EC of 0.7 and Ph of 7. I´ve tried really hard, but could not find info, which EC and pH should be used when foliar feeding.


I switched off the 600MH to lower the temps.
With the remaining 250MH i get arround 2600-3000Lux according to my smartphone.
Temps are arround 22°c at day/19° at night

and Humidity 55-60%

Any suggestions how much light i should give them while recovering? also tips about humidity are welcome


the last thing I´ve done before leaving them alone was spraying every plant with some product suggested by the hydro store containing:

• lactobacillus
• photobacillus
• bacterias which prefer to eat organic stuff (kinda like what the cymes do, but self reproducing^^)
• huminacid
• fulvicacid

I´ve been a "kill everything in the water" guy many years using H2O2, but now thinking about, if its a good idea to slowly switch from chemical war to beneficial bacterias and funghi in the system. Any opinions, and what bacterias and funghi should i add?

___________________

Hygrozyme (which is the only zymes mix which can be sued parallel to H2O2) and SM 90 are not aviable in my area.
Would take arround a week to deliver it from the US, and very expensive shipping. But saving the clones is imho more important than spending some bucks


Thanks everyone who read till the end.
I´ll come back to the grow site tomorrow.
I will keep you guys updatetd with pics, and if i manage to win the fight against this funghi/algae hybrid slime, I´m going to write a instruction about it. Maybe my growdiary can help others to ;-)


grettings, and a big thanks to all of you who contributed to my thread :-D

Absolem said:

EC is a universal measurement regardless if one is using the .5 or .7 ppm conversion. PPM measurement will be different using the .5 or .7 but the EC will be the same.

Click to expand...

But if i undestood the sheet corectly, a Hanna EC meter´s 1,0 EC will leadeto a weaker nutrient solution, than an EC of 1,0 measured with my Bluelab?

If not, I´m going to call someone to upp the EC in the Rez to 1.1

greets lectron

lectron said:

But if i undestood the sheet corectly, a Hanna EC meter´s 1,0 EC will leadeto a weaker nutrient solution, than an EC of 1,0 measured with my Bluelab?

If not, I´m going to call someone to upp the EC in the Rez to 1.1

greets lectron

Click to expand...

EC will be the same regardless of the meter used. Only the ppm's will change depending on the .5 or .7 scale. Look over that chart again and you will see the EC is constant and the difference will be in the ppm's. It's best to talk in terms of EC then everybody is on the same page.

1.0 EC is the same as 500 ppm on the .5 conversion and 700 ppm on the .7 conversion.

Cheers

imo you're being waaaaaaay too cautious with your feedings. I feed my plants the same 1.6 EC (800ppm @ 500 scale) solution from clone through harvest.