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The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread
- Thread starter growingcrazy
- Start date
M
moose eater
Thanks.
I've used them all as isolated components in the past, in conjunction with smaller pots, and boosting organic mixes in Classic 600s when I was running 16 pots to a 4'x4' area, Super-Cropping. Faster root compaction in those cases.
My only comment to the woman I referenced, re. my 'read' on her process (which gave her fairly decent and predictable results, I'd add), was that she was running the 6-4-4 Grow Big well into bloom phase, and I suspected she could improve her lot a little bit by DCing the 6-4-4 earlier in flower, and going into the end with just the higher concentrations of the Big Bloom, then flushing..
The fact that she never got what I could identify as an N or mag lock-out, and maintained healthy stem structure (often better than mine) told me that the Ocean Forest must have had reasonable amounts of K, or she wasn't fertilizing that often with the Big Bloom, as when she used it, I think she was fairly steadily applying close to a 1/2-cup/gallon of H2O.
She was growing in larger pots (perhaps Classic 1200s or 2000s) on a balcony, outdoors, and providing 12 hours of darkness with ag cloth when on the deck, or inside behind blankets strung from the ceiling when August weather here became too chilly. The latter at one point leading to molds, as she lacked any conventional electricity, and had limited air movement indoors.
paradoxlost
Member
M
moose eater
Somewhat joyful update and associated apologies.
I went mining late last night through old notes, mix formulas, etc., and unearthed what I -believe- is the mix that resulted in the pic of the GTH#1 at my profile page, with the decent production rate that plant/run gave. (*That run having been minimally fertilized, w/9 to a box, in larger pots).
There were scribbled side notes, so deciphering sequence etc., posed some questions (*Yes, better records WILL result from this).
Anyway, that mix didn't have either pumice or rice hulls in it, though it had the customary range of kelp meal. The absence of the arrival of the pumice and rice had been compensated for with increased amounts of vermiculite and perlite. And the plants did fairly well for not having been fed much at all after initial hydration.
They still lacked the oozing resin I was seeking to replicate from years earlier, but it was good quality, and, as stated, relatively productive. It was the 1st for 315s, that mix, that plant, etc.
Based on that, I'm concluding that the culprit in question re. salts is apt to be rice hulls. Less likely the pumice, but while I'm rinsing, I can do all of it.
So, turning back the clock a bit, adding a reduced or adjusted amount of micros, cutting rice hulls in half and rinsing, adjusting kelp slightly downward after rinsing to adjust K. And a few other changes. as well as the two alternative mixes to run side by side in other boxes; the Fishy Peat, Perlite, and Pro-Mix run, and the all-in-one organic, ready-made, balanced mix in Pro-Mix with perlite, vermiculite, pumice, and liming of various sorts.
Not sure yet, but I believe the 'mining' last night has provided a bit of valuable insight.
I'll back away now, and post less here for a while. Thank you for your tolerance.
Any insight on increasing resins, following testing what I replicate from that mix, after adjustments, are welcomed in advance.
Thanks all.
I went mining late last night through old notes, mix formulas, etc., and unearthed what I -believe- is the mix that resulted in the pic of the GTH#1 at my profile page, with the decent production rate that plant/run gave. (*That run having been minimally fertilized, w/9 to a box, in larger pots).
There were scribbled side notes, so deciphering sequence etc., posed some questions (*Yes, better records WILL result from this).
Anyway, that mix didn't have either pumice or rice hulls in it, though it had the customary range of kelp meal. The absence of the arrival of the pumice and rice had been compensated for with increased amounts of vermiculite and perlite. And the plants did fairly well for not having been fed much at all after initial hydration.
They still lacked the oozing resin I was seeking to replicate from years earlier, but it was good quality, and, as stated, relatively productive. It was the 1st for 315s, that mix, that plant, etc.
Based on that, I'm concluding that the culprit in question re. salts is apt to be rice hulls. Less likely the pumice, but while I'm rinsing, I can do all of it.
So, turning back the clock a bit, adding a reduced or adjusted amount of micros, cutting rice hulls in half and rinsing, adjusting kelp slightly downward after rinsing to adjust K. And a few other changes. as well as the two alternative mixes to run side by side in other boxes; the Fishy Peat, Perlite, and Pro-Mix run, and the all-in-one organic, ready-made, balanced mix in Pro-Mix with perlite, vermiculite, pumice, and liming of various sorts.
Not sure yet, but I believe the 'mining' last night has provided a bit of valuable insight.
I'll back away now, and post less here for a while. Thank you for your tolerance.
Any insight on increasing resins, following testing what I replicate from that mix, after adjustments, are welcomed in advance.
Thanks all.
led05
Chasing The Present
S pushes quality and potency in most plants, good overall fertilization and proper watering does too... less is often more ME
M
moose eater
Thanks.
My sulfur is high enough at the moment that I'm reluctant to try and decrease salts in the bit that remains of the unhealthy mix by adding any further gypsum.
I'm taking the remnants of the disappointing mix, and dumping it into the larger compost bins, to be diluted into larger outdoor veggie gardens next spring, where it can be better irrigated with rains and melting snow down the road. A standard practice here with such things, providing they're not truly toxic.
This mix (replicating and adjusting the mix unearthed and highlighted last night) will have more gypsum (thus, more S), no oyster shell flour, slightly increased 96/1.5 garden lime, ~ the same dolomite (maybe 10 TBSP) and the other changes already written here earlier, plus a few more. All of them attempting to be more sensitive toward any excesses or balances that might bring lock-outs or toxicity, while ridding salts.
Needless to say, there may be some augmentation with liquid organics or faster acting ferts, etc., to compensate for slower release items in the mix, and the limited time between tumbling and planting; based on appearance of course.
Thanks again.
Fingers crossed, I may be back on track.
One truly frustrating and defeating thing with the suspect mix being tossed, was that we'd been 'close' with the earlier mix data posted at my page, tried to make it better, but struck out it seems. When you think you're getting better, and you instead get worse, it can be discouraging.
My sulfur is high enough at the moment that I'm reluctant to try and decrease salts in the bit that remains of the unhealthy mix by adding any further gypsum.
I'm taking the remnants of the disappointing mix, and dumping it into the larger compost bins, to be diluted into larger outdoor veggie gardens next spring, where it can be better irrigated with rains and melting snow down the road. A standard practice here with such things, providing they're not truly toxic.
This mix (replicating and adjusting the mix unearthed and highlighted last night) will have more gypsum (thus, more S), no oyster shell flour, slightly increased 96/1.5 garden lime, ~ the same dolomite (maybe 10 TBSP) and the other changes already written here earlier, plus a few more. All of them attempting to be more sensitive toward any excesses or balances that might bring lock-outs or toxicity, while ridding salts.
Needless to say, there may be some augmentation with liquid organics or faster acting ferts, etc., to compensate for slower release items in the mix, and the limited time between tumbling and planting; based on appearance of course.
Thanks again.
Fingers crossed, I may be back on track.
One truly frustrating and defeating thing with the suspect mix being tossed, was that we'd been 'close' with the earlier mix data posted at my page, tried to make it better, but struck out it seems. When you think you're getting better, and you instead get worse, it can be discouraging.
growingcrazy
Well-known member
What is the soil texture on the high NA mix like? If you have an EC meter a simple rinse could bring the numbers down and get the soil texture back to allow air in. I'm guessing the mix is quite compacted after being watered in currently.
To build a base use as few amendments as possible to hit your target numbers. To create the balance in the soil it isn't necessary to have multiple sources of each element. Once you hit your base numbers you can use the variety of amendments at that point.
If you use bone meal, is it from a broth production plant?
To build a base use as few amendments as possible to hit your target numbers. To create the balance in the soil it isn't necessary to have multiple sources of each element. Once you hit your base numbers you can use the variety of amendments at that point.
If you use bone meal, is it from a broth production plant?
paradoxlost
Member
If your sulfate levels are too high, maybe you should look into sulfate accumulators to cover crop with along with cannabis. That should allow you to use gypsum, as nothing (except literally adding EDTA or something of the same nature) works as well as gypsum. Lime brings carbonates, calcuim nitrate or calcium silicate aren't as soluble, etc gypsum just has the properties you need as the calcium is bonded with a strong conjugate base, which results in 100% dissolution of the calcium making maximum effectiveness.
M
moose eater
Texture is anything but compact. It's porous as all hell. Even after watering hard, you can stick your fingers in and stir it around fairly easily.
Loosest mix I've ever had, and specifically done so in re. to resolving problems in porosity in the past that helped contribute to fusarium wilt and other headaches not to be wished on horrible enemies.
It's got such a high percentage of rice hulls, perlite, vermiculite, pumice, and (the problematic older mix we were previously referring to) coarse zeolite (the repeat mix from successful GTH#1 and the 2 experimental side mixes receiving the granular zeolite), with the limited zeolite still adding to drainage and porosity, though not like the coarse variety did..
The Bone Meal I'm currently using was from a bulk 50-lb. bag from the feed store, still labeled as 3-15-0 (though I'm currently skeptical, based on the acid extraction testing) and used in the veggie garden as well as indoors. (*Ran out of DTE Steamed Bone meal in the box a while ago).
Their sourcing I can't comment on without lying, other than to say, "Who knows?" I can try to research from their label tomorrow, as the larger bag is on the back porch among the bulk ferts..
What I do know is that when I first went to assemble a 1.2-2-1, 1-2-1, or 1-3-2 ratio mix, I counted TBSPs of each amendment, trying to average out for % value of content, but often just doing the 1 TBSP N, 2 TBSP P, and 1 TBSP K, or what ever ratio I was working on. Given the numbers I was working with, there have been times that the P that SHOULD have been in there (such as this last troubled mix) clearly wasn't.
In that regard, we can test and analyze, then re-mix, but the first time something is added that wasn't properly calculated at the factory, or is misrepresented by a label, then it all potentially goes out the window... or in this case, out to the compost. ;^>)
If I remix the successful GTH#1 mix with the adjustments and modifications presented earlier, and it fails miserably, I can either hang myself, or retire from growing for a while. (Partly kidding of course... Though either one seems like a possible improvement some days. ;^>))
When it all boils down, there's an old inside joke here for the past number of years, dealing with disappointments in life; "I want my money back." Typically referencing a request asserted to a metaphysical being.. who probably has no intention of any refunds.;^>)
I do want to thank you for all of your help, gc. I mean that. Seriously. I know you're dealing with a lot right now. And I want you to know that in the case you feel -any- kind of stress related to -anything- in this effort, DON'T. This is simply another turn in life that stands to create enough of a speed bump to maybe teach me something, if I can wrap my head around it and overcome my inherent stubbornness to new concepts.
That said, any and all help is welcome, though I may not always immediately understand the information. Just call me Forrest. ;^>)
Loosest mix I've ever had, and specifically done so in re. to resolving problems in porosity in the past that helped contribute to fusarium wilt and other headaches not to be wished on horrible enemies.
It's got such a high percentage of rice hulls, perlite, vermiculite, pumice, and (the problematic older mix we were previously referring to) coarse zeolite (the repeat mix from successful GTH#1 and the 2 experimental side mixes receiving the granular zeolite), with the limited zeolite still adding to drainage and porosity, though not like the coarse variety did..
The Bone Meal I'm currently using was from a bulk 50-lb. bag from the feed store, still labeled as 3-15-0 (though I'm currently skeptical, based on the acid extraction testing) and used in the veggie garden as well as indoors. (*Ran out of DTE Steamed Bone meal in the box a while ago).
Their sourcing I can't comment on without lying, other than to say, "Who knows?" I can try to research from their label tomorrow, as the larger bag is on the back porch among the bulk ferts..
What I do know is that when I first went to assemble a 1.2-2-1, 1-2-1, or 1-3-2 ratio mix, I counted TBSPs of each amendment, trying to average out for % value of content, but often just doing the 1 TBSP N, 2 TBSP P, and 1 TBSP K, or what ever ratio I was working on. Given the numbers I was working with, there have been times that the P that SHOULD have been in there (such as this last troubled mix) clearly wasn't.
In that regard, we can test and analyze, then re-mix, but the first time something is added that wasn't properly calculated at the factory, or is misrepresented by a label, then it all potentially goes out the window... or in this case, out to the compost. ;^>)
If I remix the successful GTH#1 mix with the adjustments and modifications presented earlier, and it fails miserably, I can either hang myself, or retire from growing for a while. (Partly kidding of course... Though either one seems like a possible improvement some days. ;^>))
When it all boils down, there's an old inside joke here for the past number of years, dealing with disappointments in life; "I want my money back." Typically referencing a request asserted to a metaphysical being.. who probably has no intention of any refunds.;^>)
I do want to thank you for all of your help, gc. I mean that. Seriously. I know you're dealing with a lot right now. And I want you to know that in the case you feel -any- kind of stress related to -anything- in this effort, DON'T. This is simply another turn in life that stands to create enough of a speed bump to maybe teach me something, if I can wrap my head around it and overcome my inherent stubbornness to new concepts.
That said, any and all help is welcome, though I may not always immediately understand the information. Just call me Forrest. ;^>)
M
moose eater
* I did research making water-soluble calcium the other day, involving an initial mix of vinegar and charred chicken bones, followed by a 1:10 dilution in H2O. Neat stuff. Though one initial thought was that I'd need a BUNCH of chicken bones to come up with enough home-made water-soluble calcium to feed a single crop from start to finish, let alone a year or two.
I'll end there, and leave you to imagine some of the comedic thoughts or statements that followed.
The next move was to follow up on Jidoka's recommendation, and I ordered some Biomin, as well as some Nectar for the Gods 'Herculean Harvest' liquid bone meal. Seemed a more functional thing to do. That stuff should be here this week; bout mid-week. Along with some 0-45-0 tsp, and some 0-0-54 K.
Found (or re-found) a box of 20+ year old 0-0-44 in my shop in the interim. Stuff I rarely even consider using anymore.
I'll end there, and leave you to imagine some of the comedic thoughts or statements that followed.
The next move was to follow up on Jidoka's recommendation, and I ordered some Biomin, as well as some Nectar for the Gods 'Herculean Harvest' liquid bone meal. Seemed a more functional thing to do. That stuff should be here this week; bout mid-week. Along with some 0-45-0 tsp, and some 0-0-54 K.
Found (or re-found) a box of 20+ year old 0-0-44 in my shop in the interim. Stuff I rarely even consider using anymore.
led05
Chasing The Present
For your own sanity and ours.... Run a few pots with nothing but pro-mix and some TRF (time release organic fertilizer), try Omscote or something similar, find one that is like 1-2-1 ratio and has Ca and micros and do nothing else but your same watering regime. If Jidoka, myself or anyone else told you this before, there's a reason, it's sound advice especially for your current predicament(s).
If it's too late on this grow do it on the next.... All of us get caught up in our worlds and sometimes what's clear to the outside is impossible to see for ourselves....
I'm sitting 5k miles away and I promise you; you are being your own worst enemy... The fact you know a lot is by FAR your biggest enemy in my humble opinion and every time you post I'm more confident of this...
Slow down, take a breath, relax and make it easier on yourself please, your plants will thank you
PS* - I never toss any mixes, ever, evrything goes into a huge compost pile and after winter does it's thing it's black gold, outside things behave MUCH differently than inside, even if identical mixes, if you have outside gardens everything should always be recycled, all them minerals and salts are expensive and have value....
Ibechillin
Masochist Educator
Looking forward to the tissue results and appreciate you sharing jidoka.
Alot of reading ive done suggest a 1-3-2 ratio being about perfect for flowering, always nice to get confirmation from a credible source.
Ive been looking into running jacks 10-30-20 and caltrate, ive seen some killer results indoors/outdoors in soil and pro mix as well from DoubleTripleOG using Jacks classic 10-30-20 as a standalone.
M
moose eater
Thanks.
The mix you've referenced, lost some place in my replies, is already in the works as a side-run along with the modified mix we've been discussing, but turning back the pages to the GTH#1 run that produced, but lacked sufficient resin to really get my smile going.
Yes, I got lost in complexity trying to fine-tune, to a point of moving backward, some time back.
An evidence of this is in Ibechillin's comment below; if you look at the ratios I've pursued, referenced loosely repeatedly, I began early on in serious cultivation trying to stick to a 1-3-2 mix.
It was through reading, following others' input/writings, and continuing to ask why I was falling in resin production, that I began chasing a 1.2-2-1 or 1-2-1 ratio.
Mind you, in the beginning of the 1-3-2 days, was when I referenced feeding strictly guano teas with kelp extract concentrate (the contents of which did notably/visibly change), other than for transplanting from distinctly different veg soils to distinctly different bloom soils, giving them a moderate dose of Dyna-Gro Bloom, specifically for the array of micro-nutes in between veg and bloom.
I got severely caught up in changes in amendments, at the same time changes in water content/source occurred. Any time multiple variables change, the prospect of knowing what went where becomes much more difficult. MUCH.
So that's where I've been for a long while; getting good results, though feeding smaller organic mixes with FF product, etc., but wanting to get back to a straight, home-brewed organic run, and possibly incorporating the top-dressing as sole-source of add'l feeds later in growth.. hopefully to the outcome of increased resin content.
For now I'm doing as directed, and running the 3 mixes; the one done by my acquaintance in the next valley away, the one you've recommended, and a doctored organic mix that ran successfully with the GTH#1. With washed rice hulls and kelp, to reduce the salts..
Thanks again. Seriously.
paradoxlost
Member
M
moose eater
For the one-size-fits-all, all-inclusive-NPK, 'organic' mix recommended by Led05, the winner of 'fert to be used,' if only by virtue of the fact that locally, it was the ONLY one I could find that approximated the preferred ratios, is Jobe's/Job's 'Organic' (tomato food) 2-7-4. It's a granular, claiming to be organic, thus I suspect extracted, then made into the granular consistency it's sold in. The 4-lb. container recommends 1 cup to (I think) 10 sq. ft.
If anyone has positive or negative experience with this product, please chime in.
I'm desperately attempting to avoid further disappointment. ;^>)
If not, that's the side-run of recommended simpler protocol.
If anyone has positive or negative experience with this product, please chime in.
I'm desperately attempting to avoid further disappointment. ;^>)
If not, that's the side-run of recommended simpler protocol.
cannabisforjoe
New member
tissue tests - sulfur
tissue tests - sulfur
thanks, yes that explains it well. i have a question about tissue tests. this pertains to any crop.
have you found there is a point where you have too much sulfur in the tissue analysis? i usually try to keep my N/S ratio around 6/1 but i wondered if there is a % where too much sulfur causes a problem for the crop? i know people who have had 2-3% sulfur in tomatos but i didnt get to find out if that affected the crop at all
tissue tests - sulfur
thanks, yes that explains it well. i have a question about tissue tests. this pertains to any crop.
have you found there is a point where you have too much sulfur in the tissue analysis? i usually try to keep my N/S ratio around 6/1 but i wondered if there is a % where too much sulfur causes a problem for the crop? i know people who have had 2-3% sulfur in tomatos but i didnt get to find out if that affected the crop at all
paradoxlost
Member
What do you do for weeds
