Males are they even needed?

Sam_Skunkman · May 12, 2020

Characterization; Genome Sizes and Morphology of Sex Chromosomes in Hemp (Cannabis sativa L.)
Koichi Sakamoto, Yukio Akiyama, Kiichi Fukui, Hiroshi Kamada and Shinobu Satoh
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/cytologia1929/63/4/63_4_459/_pdf/-char/en
the diploid genome sizes in female and male plants of C. sativa are estimated to be 1636•}7.2 (S.D.) and 1683•}13.9 (S.D.) Mbp, respectively (Table 1).
Female and male C. sativa have XX and XY chromosomes with 18 autosomes, respectively.
Condensation patterns were observed in the Giemsa-stained female and male C. sativa chromosomes at the pro-metaphase stage (Figs. 2A, 2B). The Y chromosome, the largest chromosome, is
subtelocentric and has a large long arm with a satellite in the terminal of its short arm. The X chromosome was found to be submetacentric with a short satellite at the end of the short arm.

Table 1. Nuclear genome size of Cannabis sativa
__________________________________________________
Species Genome size (diploid) (Mbp)
__________________________________________________
Arabidopsis thaliana 260
Cannabis sativa L.
Female 1636 (7.2)
Male 1683 (13.9)
__________________________________________________
Each value (•}/-S.D.) is the mean of results from six measurements.

It seems that males have a bigger Chromosome, what that means is up for discussion, but I find it interesting.

-SamS

Mr. J · May 12, 2020

I don't know. Why don't you tell us what you think?

bsgospel · May 12, 2020

Well....good question. It sort of depends on breeding goals vs. wild fitness. The authors seem to think so as far as sex function is concerned but this paper is kind of old. Yes it is older but the science did not change males are a bigger Chromosome than females.-SamS

"These results demonstrate that some specific DNA sequences might be accumulated and associated with differentiation and functions of the sex chromosome, especially in the long arm of the Y chromosome."

We haven't seen any sex linkage in traits we care about, have we? As far as I know seed coats and the Pericarp and testa are only maternal genes so the traits must be female linked?-SamS And conversely, autosomes as stated in this paper do not affect sex chromosomes. Is it possible at some point without reproductive pressures one could simply back themselves into a corner with regard to sterility? Maybe.

Whatever small percentage of difference in Bp between males and females could potentially hold useful instructions for water usage, photosynthesis., etc. There has to be a more recent investigation but as we've seen, I'm a bit behind on the Bibliography. I'd hedge my bets and say yes they are necessary, depending on your need and intentions.

Hash Artist · May 12, 2020

NEEDED

NEEDED

Needed? Maybe not, but certainly preferred. Nature will always do it better IMHO. Is the Sun needed. Someone selling grow lights will tell you it is not. :tiphat:

troutman · May 12, 2020

If you want normal plants that can reproduce on their own and for genetic reasons I say yes. :tiphat:

I'm not into Franken Beans.

Sam_Skunkman · May 12, 2020

FYI I like males and use them, that said many people seem to think that Cannabis breeding requires no males, this is what I think needs to be discussed. I know that transformed female do make pollen and can be used but is it good after 100 or 10000 generations is what I am thinking about. Is there something in males that makes them superior to use?

-SamS

troutman · May 12, 2020

Without males, serious inbreeding would occur that would eventually cause population collapse when too many bad genes accumulate.

GMT · May 12, 2020

Kind of an old debate isn't it? We know that there is no harm caused to the offspring's genetics by using female sourced pollen.
I found a paper from someone claiming that new genes are generated in greater numbers in the y chromosome. I can't prove that one way or another though. I don't see why, in reversible cannabis, rather than the mammals studied in the paper, it would make a difference.
Theory being that the oldest and successful genes are then passed along the DNA chain into the autosomal regions as time passes. Presumably the less successful the newer genes are, the less successfully those males pass on their DNA to the next generation. Thereby "vetting" new genes prior to passing them into the general population. In nature, the male is more expendable than the female (at least with animals) due to one male being able to father kids at a faster rate than females can mother them.
It would seem that if that paper is correct, the autosome region only has successful genes, mutations, and scrap DNA in them.
I guess for preservation purposes, the answer would be no, with the caveat of so long as you are happy playing with chemicals to produce seeds. Which I'm not. If you are looking for something new, yes males maybe (or may not be with plants) important, but, how many generations will you have to go through in order to see the effects of those genes in the female population. Which let's face it, is what we really care about.
Evolution works on such long time spans, that I personally would guess no breeder would live long enough to find that out.
The only real difference would seem to be, how easy it is for the customer to replicate the seeds for themselves. So it is probably more profitable not to use males, and more customer friendly to use them.
Just my take.

vanilla dutch · May 12, 2020

Interesting thread

Interesting thread

I would think they are necessary but for what, and what advantage does using males have over female pollen . And can this question be asked of females do we need them to grow bud?

J-Icky · May 12, 2020

troutman said:
Without males, serious inbreeding would occur that would eventually cause population collapse when too many bad genes accumulate.

The same could be said for male/female breeding. It all comes down to proper breeding. Let’s use Sam as an example if he took 1000 males and 1000 females and crossed those and then made selections in the next generation he just narrowed the gene pool. If he continued on for 1000 generations without back or out crossing he would end up with inbred garbage wether he did it with males or just females.

It all comes down to proper breeding but the truth is we have no idea what would happen in a proper breeding program if only females were used for 1000 generations.

troutman · May 12, 2020

^^^^ Strainhunters would show up with some new genetic material. :laughing:

Hammerhead · May 12, 2020

You cant get female flowers without females. So yes there needed. Males don't produce flowers that are usable other than pollen collection.

NOT TRUE any MALE can be transformed to express FEMALE flowers and they are smokable, do you understand this? https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=males+transformed+female -SamS

Can inbreeding depression be fixed by using a male?.

I wood · May 12, 2020

vanilla dutch said:
I would think they are necessary but for what, and what advantage does using males have over female pollen . And can this question be asked of females do we need them to grow bud?

I’ve got to assume you are joking, but if you aren’t then that is even funnier.

Males are the hit or miss part for me and useful to my goals of keeping as many genes as possible.
Beautiful females are the easy part, a good male is hard to come by and very valuable.
Not necessarily necessary but useful.

GMT · May 12, 2020

Inbreeding depression only occurs due to mutations in essential genes being passed on. A mutation is no more or less likely to occur in males or females. The sex is irrelevant. Testing of the offspring and when necessary, going back and using different parents to create a desirable generation, will always be the difference between a quality breeder and a pollen chucker.

vanilla dutch · May 12, 2020

If u reverse a male you can get bud. But the discussion continues are males needed? And what underlying purpose do they serve other than pollen?

Hammerhead · May 12, 2020

Not possible No.. This is what you get from a reversed male. Pic courtesy of whodatis, You will get seeds. I spoke to whodatis. The seeds did not germinate.. He is going to try again.

Yes he should try again, I posted photos of reversed male to female it can be done and they can be smoked you say not possible? Maybe not by you and your friends? And yes the seeds I made on a reversed MALE to FEMALE grew. Maybe you should try it? -SamS

Here below your 2 photos is the first Male I transformed to Female looks a little better than your photo. And I did smoke it, it was great. -SamS

My Skunk #1 Male transformed to Female flowering -SamS

big315smooth · May 12, 2020

props to you breeders. read few pages on it once it was like i was staring at hieroglyphs.

chilliwilli · May 12, 2020

I think with males you get more diverse offsprings.
When you look at us egg cells are produced when women are fetus to protect them from mutations because there is only one. But sperm or male pollen is produced in high numbers what makes mutation more likely to appear imo.

KiefSweat · May 12, 2020

What about males that pop up in fem seed?
In my experience you’ll find 1:4000 or so. I’ve seen one fem hybrid throw out a 70/30 male:female ratio before and don’t believe it was random pollen with the type 2 hybrid plants that where made and how they tested. But to me I don’t see why you need any chromosome to have a recombination that then shows that y up in the next generation

As far as sex linked traits. Flowering time seems to be more dependent on the pollen donor then the seed plant but that’s the only one I’ve noticed.

Dropped Cat · May 13, 2020

In a vacuum, I guess males are redundant.

Just ask your wife, lol.

My best guess, without a degree in botany, is the male
is more likely culled, that in any given population, a male
naturally produced will give more unknown to the cross.

One can switch a male to test traits, natch.

My bet is use a natural male for crosses in case anyone asks.

Males are they even needed?

"RESIN BREEDER"

Well-known member

Bat Macumba

Active member

Seed Whore

"RESIN BREEDER"

Seed Whore

The Tri Guy

Active member

Active member

Seed Whore

Disabled Farmer

Well-known member

The Tri Guy

Active member

Disabled Farmer

Attachments

mama tried

Waterboy

Member

Six Gummi Bears and Some Scotch