What's new
  • Please note members who been with us for more than 10 years have been upgraded to "Veteran" status and will receive exclusive benefits. If you wish to find out more about this or support IcMag and get same benefits, check this thread here.
  • Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!

3 plus 3=?

That would make an excellent outdoor/ swamp growing plant. If i remember right, arent you trying to breed these genetics? Maybe in 10 years half of all MJ plants will have this tri gene.( If you start getting the seeds out) How awesome would that be.,
 
G

Guest

Alright! We've got ourselves a polyploidy plant thread! :yes:

I never see people flower these plants. Bring on the show ladies and gentlemen. :lurk:

I already have a feeling that this thread is going to kick ass :asskick: LOL
 
Last edited:
H

Hal

I'm new to this polyploid trait...what is the advantage? Do these plants produce more bud sites than normal?
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Outdoorgrower, trying. Although I'd rather it was an option rather than in half of everything.

Herbal, thanks, I'm not entirely convinced that these types of plants do contain 3 helixs on their dna chain. It could also be the result of a single gene doubling itself (or some type of typical mutation resulting in trifoliar tendencies) within one of the chromosomes, which takes place all the time, having varying effects. Until someone actually maps the genome of one of these, (and I don't have those resources), it's all guess work as to what's going on at that level. Although I would have though myself that a true polyploid would pass that trait onto all of it's offspring. Whereas when breeding trifoliar plants, the offspring tend to show traits which would be more relevant to standard hiredity theories, such as dominant and recessive traits. With the trifoliar pheno being a recessive trait. But like I said it's all theory at this point.
Some links to genetics related sites:
genetic glossary
http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/glossary.html#h
gene school
http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/general_info.html
more detailed
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR02/MAR02/baps/abs/S7500.html
great article on history
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/92/6/979
more sex genes evolve
http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v95/n2/full/6800697a.html
gender determination
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00276.htm

Hi Hal, depends on how you grow, I get more growing sites from topping bifoliars repeatedly. They just look nice :wave:
 
Last edited:

Big D

icmagic
Veteran
:lurk: Im in on the first page :woohoo:
Told ya! I love this stuff!
I can not grow... so I will live through you. This is gonna be exciting!

Good luck GMT!
peace, D...
 

Core

Quality Control Controller
ICMag Donor
Veteran
just a little i wanne add..i found it in 1 of JLP's links...good article on polyploids...

and i found some more Cannabis breeding links inthere....good for a few day of reading
Great Thread imo...
JLP's Thread ....Scientific Reference Bibliography

ohw yea that little piece about polyploids... :bat:

Robert Connel Clark said:
Polyploidy

Polyploidy is the condition of multiple sets of chromosomes within one cell. Cannabis has 20 chromosomes in the vegetative diploid (2n) condition. Triploid (3n) and tetraploid (4n) individuals have three or four sets of chromosomes and are termed polyploids. It is believed that the haploid condition of 10 chromosomes was likely derived by reduction from a higher (polyploid) ancestral number (Lewis, W. H. 1980). Polyploidy has not been shown to occur naturally in Cannabis; however, it may be induced artificially with colchicine treatments. Colchicine is a poisonous compound extracted from the roots of certain Colchicum species; it inhibits chromosome segregation to daughter cells and cell wall formation, resulting in larger than average daughter cells with multiple chromosome sets. The studies of H. E. Warmke et al. (1942-1944) seem to indicate that colchicine raised drug levels in Cannabis. It is unfortunate that Warmke was unaware of the actual psychoactive ingredients of Cannabis and was therefore unable to extract THC. His crude acetone extract and archaic techniques of bioassay using killifish and small freshwater crustaceans are far from conclusive. He was, however, able to produce both triploid and tetraploid strains of Cannabis with up to twice the potency of dip bid strains (in their ability to kill small aquatic organisms). The aim of his research was to "produce a strain of hemp with materially reduced marijuana content" and his results indicated that polyploidy raised the potency of Cannabis without any apparent increase in fiber quality or yield.

Warmke's work with polyploids shed light on the nature of sexual determination in Cannabis. He also illustrated that potency is genetically determined by creating a lower potency strain of hemp through selective breeding with low potency parents.

More recent research by A. I. Zhatov (1979) with fiber Cannabis showed that some economically valuable traits such as fiber quantity may be improved through polyploidy. Polyploids require more water and are usually more sensitive to changes in environment. Vegetative growth cycles are extended by up to 30-40% in polyploids. An extended vegetative period could delay the flowering of polyploid drug strains and interfere with the formation of floral clusters. It would be difficult to determine if cannabinoid levels had been raised by polyploidy if polyploid plants were not able to mature fully in the favorable part of the season when cannabinoid production is promoted by plentiful light and warm temperatures. Greenhouses and artificial lighting can be used to extend the season and test polyploid strains.

The height of tetraploid (4n) Cannabis in these experiments often exceeded the height of the original diploid plants by 25-30%. Tetraploids were intensely colored, with dark green leaves and stems and a well developed gross phenotype. Increased height and vigorous growth, as a rule, vanish in subsequent generations. Tetraploid plants often revert back to the diploid condition, making it difficult to support tetraploid populations. Frequent tests are performed to determine if ploidy is changing.

Triploid (3n) strains were formed with great difficulty by crossing artificially created tetraploids (4n) with dip bids (2n). Triploids proved to be inferior to both diploids and tetraploids in many cases.

De Pasquale et al. (1979) conducted experiments with Cannabis which was treated with 0.25% and 0.50% solutions of colchicine at the primary meristem seven days after generation. Treated plants were slightly taller and possessed slightly larger leaves than the controls, Anomalies in leaf growth occurred in 20% and 39%, respectively, of the surviving treated plants. In the first group (0.25%) cannabinoid levels were highest in the plants without anomalies, and in the second group (0.50%) cannabinoid levels were highest in plants with anomalies, Overall, treated plants showed a 166-250% increase in THC with respect to controls and a decrease of CBD (30-33%) and CBN (39-65%). CBD (cannabidiol) and CBN (cannabinol) are cannabinoids involved in the biosynthesis and degradation of THC. THC levels in the control plants were very low (less than 1%). Possibly colchicine or the resulting polyploidy interferes with cannabinoid biogenesis to favor THC. In treated plants with deformed leaf lamina, 90% of the cells are tetraploid (4n 40) and 10% diploid (2n 20). In treated plants without deformed lamina a few cells are tetraploid and the remainder are triploid or diploid.

The transformation of diploid plants to the tetraploid level inevitably results in the formation of a few plants with an unbalanced set of chromosomes (2n + 1, 2n - 1, etc.). These plants are called aneuploids. Aneuploids are inferior to polyploids in every economic respect. Aneuploid Cannabis is characterized by extremely small seeds. The weight of 1,000 seeds ranges from 7 to 9 grams (1/4 to 1/3 ounce). Under natural conditions diploid plants do not have such small seeds and average 14-19 grams (1/2-2/3 ounce) per 1,000 (Zhatov 1979).

Once again, little emphasis has been placed on the relationship between flower or resin production and polyploidy. Further research to determine the effect of polyploidy on these and other economically valuable traits of Cannabis is needed.

Colchicine is sold by laboratory supply houses, and breeders have used it to induce polyploidy in Cannabis. However, colchicine is poisonous, so special care is exercised by the breeder in any use of it. Many clandestine cultivators have started polyploid strains with colchicine. Except for changes in leaf shape and phyllotaxy, no out standing characteristics have developed in these strains and potency seems unaffected. However, none of the strains have been examined to determine if they are actually polyploid or if they were merely treated with colchicine to no effect. Seed treatment is the most effective and safest way to apply colchicine. * In this way, the entire plant growing from a colchicine-treated seed could be polyploid and if any colchicine exists at the end of the growing season the amount would be infinitesimal. Colchicine is nearly always lethal to Cannabis seeds, and in the treatment there is a very fine line between polyploidy and death. In other words, if 100 viable seeds are treated with colchicine and 40 of them germinate it is unlikely that the treatment induced polyploidy in any of the survivors. On the other hand, if 1,000 viable treated seeds give rise to 3 seedlings, the chances are better that they are polyploid since the treatment killed all of the seeds but those three. It is still necessary to determine if the offspring are actually polyploid by microscopic examination.

The work of Menzel (1964) presents us with a crude map of the chromosomes of Cannabis, Chromosomes 2-6 and 9 are distinguished by the length of each arm. Chromosome 1 is distinguished by a large knob on one end and a dark chromomere 1 micron from the knob. Chromosome 7 is extremely short and dense, and chromosome 8 is assumed to be the sex chromosome. In the future, chromosome *The word "safest" is used here as a relative term. Coichicine has received recent media attention as a dangerous poison and while these accounts are probably a bit too lurid, the real dangers of exposure to coichicine have not been fully researched. The possibility of bodily harm exists and this is multiplied when breeders inexperienced in handling toxins use colchicine. Seed treatment might be safer than spraying a grown plant but the safest method of all is to not use colchicine. mapping will enable us to picture the location of the genes influencing the phenotype of Cannabis. This will enable geneticists to determine and manipulate the important characteristics contained in the gene pool. For each trait the number of genes in control will be known, which chromosomes carry them, and where they are located along those chromosomes.


well it is little if you see all the chapters inthere.... :pointlaug
 
R

Relik

Very interesting project, I'll make sure to keep an eye on this one!

Wishing you the best.

Peace
 
G

Guest

yes i have gotten a few trifoliat..they were males and it was bogglegum i use the pollen for a number of crosses
 

Maj.PotHead

End Cannibis Prohibition Now Realize Legalize !!
Mentor
Veteran
love it right on GM i also have a tri leaf clone this cut was the only 1 on the almost 4 ft tall plant. this cut is from a cross Jaws done urkel fm by straw d male, this clone has 4 nodes of tri leaf and grown strong. i've tagged this 1
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Hi Everyone.

One thought that I want to adress in particular. Why do people assume that all trifoliar plants are polyploids? Here's an article on clovers, you know, 3 leaves, trifoliar plants. Oh "trifolium" is the scientific name for clovers, not all trifoliar species of plant.

Chromosome numbers are known for at least 184 species
of Trifolium (summarized in Taylor et al., 1979; Zohary
and Heller, 1984; see also Goldblatt and Johnson, 2003).
Over 80% of the examined species are 2nD16, and xD8 is
the inferred base number of the genus (Goldblatt, 1981).
Aneuploidy (2nD10, 12, or 14) is known from 31 species,
11 of which have both aneuploid and diploid (2nD16) or
polyploid counts. Polyploidy is known from 24 species, of
which six are exclusively tetraploid, two are hexaploid, and
one is dodecaploid (12£). Eleven species have both diploid
and polyploid counts, while three have multiple polyploid
counts at the tetraploid level and above

All of them display the 3 leaf formations, showing that that which has 3 leaves, does not necessarily, or is not prevented from, being Haploid, Diploid, Triploid or and of the other polypoid possiblities. Just wanted to know where everyone is getting this trifoliar is polyploid theory from.
 
Last edited:

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Some stuff on polyploids, just in case everyone is right lol.
Chromosomal rearrangements provide the most likely origin of bryophyte and homosporous pteridophyte heteromorphic sex chromosomes because of their extraordinarily high rates of polyploidy and polysomy (Såstad, in press). Duplication of entire chromosomes results in an immediate addition of epigenetic signals, at least in flowering plants (which is the one taxon from which data currently exists on this phenomenon). In cotton (Gossypium; Malvaceae), one-quarter of the genes tested appeared to be epigenetically silenced immediately following polyploid formation (Adams et al., 2003 ). Adams et al. (2003) tentatively attributed this epigenetic silencing to changes in cytosine methylation and chromatin levels. Similarly, Wang et al. (2004) report that 3–11% of homeologous genes are epigenetically reciprocally silenced following polyploid formation in Arabidopsis (Brassicaceae), and this silencing appears to be caused by changes in cytosine methylation (or the machinery that maintains it, such as dihydroxypropyladenine inhibiting methyltransferase activity). At this juncture, no other studies have been published regarding polyploidy or polysomy epigenetically silencing genes on reciprocal homeologous genes, but this may simply reflect that only a few taxa have yet been examined. However, similar empirical evidence and theoretical arguments for reciprocal silencing of homeologous genes in polyploids was put forwards a dozen years earlier for homosporous pteridophytes (Gastony, 1991 ; Werth and Windham, 1991 ), albeit none of these earlier authors asserted that the silencing was of epigenetic origin. High levels of cytosine methylation following polyploid formation may result in chromosomal rearrangements such as translocations (Lim et al., 2004 ), which may have provided the genesis of sex chromosomes in highly polyploid plant lineages. High levels of cytosine methylation also result in high levels of heterochromatin (Scarbrough et al., 1984 ), especially constitutive heterochromatin (Buzek et al., 1998 ). Nascent additions of constitutive heterochromatin probably made the sex chromosomes of the liverworts Sphaerocarpos donnellii and S. texanus readily visible to Charles Allen almost a century ago (Allen, 1917 , 1919 ). Heteromorphic sex chromosomes can thereby only arise in plants by other means, such as chromosomal rearrangements or gradual acquisition of beneficial genes. Extensive chromosomal rearrangements may themselves be a result of extensive polyploidy, as appears to have occurred in bryophytes and homosporous pteridophytes.
Polyploidy has played a major role in the evolution of flowering plants (RAMSEY and SCHEMSKE 1998; SOLTIS et al. 2003) yet little is known about the genetic mechanisms that contribute to the formation and stability of polyploids. In this study, we sought to characterize the response of A. thaliana to triploidy and to identify genetic variability affecting this response as well as investigate the contribution of triploids to the formation of polyploids.
Triploidy occurs relatively frequently in diploid species of animals and plants, resulting either from the fusion of an accidental 2N gamete to a regular 1N gamete, both produced by diploid individuals, or from crosses between diploid and tetraploid individuals. In humans, 10% of spontaneous miscarriages are due to triploidy (SANKARANARAYANAN 1979), but triploids of fish and amphibians can grow to adults and some species are even fixed in the triploid state (TOCK et al. 2002
 

Core

Quality Control Controller
ICMag Donor
Veteran
the article said its 'termed' polyploids...so i can assume that that info is correct....
so if there not all polyploids..... in a nutshell what is the diffrence ..i can't find that in these articles....
i lookt in wikipedia but could't find my answer there.....

btw did't understand all whats in that last article....also something about inducing polyploidy into a plant...and something that they dont have much scientific data on the subject..but its not that uncommon for it 2 happen

i've been doing some googleing and i think Trifoliate is a term for leaf shape

i'm not trying 2 be a Hard ass on ya ....but ..i just dont see it :confused:
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Hi Core, I have seen others refer to trifoliars as polyploids, which I think is being used in place of the term triploid, to explain that they believe a trifoliar plant is a bifoliar (diploid) plant, with an additional helix of DNA, or at least and additional chromosome on that part of the DNA double helix that codes for leaves. While this is possible, I havent seen anything to suggest it other than hypothesis. The article you posted deals with polyploids, but may not deal with trifoliar weed plants, or may. I would have thought it likely that to turn a bifoliar to a trifoliar, just needs a duplication of that gene or those genes which grow the leaf on one side of the plant within a single chromosome. When this chromosome and the duplicate from the other parent then make leaves together, you get the 3 being made. This would mean that there is no need for an additional chromosome, and certainly no need for an additional whole helix, meaning that trifoliar plants may well be diploid, triploid, or polyploid, but not necessarily so. Anyway they are my thoughts on the subject for now. If anyone knows anything diff, please let us know.
 

Latest posts

Latest posts

Top