Dutch pilot experiment: LEGALLY growing organic female hemp flowers high in CBD

karl.uk · Aug 16, 2014

@offthehook,
Impressive field of Finola grow.....
Did you hand sow in lines, so you could get through the crop ?
This I am assuming, so you could take the male plants out early ?
At what time stage did the males show themselves after sowing ?
Did you fertilise/ feed at any point in the grow cycle?
Would be interesting to see more pictures when the buds have developed further..
Do the plants smell like hemp or more like the drug strain ?
Karl....

offthehook · Aug 16, 2014

^ The 'Donkey Dick' feno.

^ A medium 'branched' feno.

^ A very 'wide branching' feno, standing 2.50 mtr tall

offthehook · Aug 16, 2014

karl.uk said:
@offthehook,
Impressive field of Finola grow.....
Did you hand sow in lines, so you could get through the crop ? Yes. I'd call it: sowing in from the hip, lol, bit like feeding chickens, eheh.
There were 'mulched lanes' to walk over and tend to the plants, and seperate 'barren' lanes to sow in.
This I am assuming, so you could take the male plants out early ? Indeed. For that purpose I did not sow in the seeds more than about 30 cm wide, knowing that a 'full lane' of 80 cm wide and full of seed would be a hell of a job to go after males.
At what time stage did the males show themselves after sowing ? The first and smallest males would show their identitiy at 5 weeks after sowing in, the last and biggest males to identify themselves would show up 4 weeks later.
Did you fertilise/ feed at any point in the grow cycle? I turned the plot and brought in several cubic meters of pre-fermented stable dung from our cattle and chickens. Then at the beginning of flowering I topped up the lanes with about 35/40 liter chickenshit/seaweed pellets.
Would be interesting to see more pictures when the buds have developed further.. My camera is getting shittyer every day, pfff, we'll see mate, we'll see, eheh
Do the plants smell like hemp or more like the drug strain ?
Karl....

In the last phase of bloom they smell like AK47 or New York City Diesel and with every possible variation on that inbetween individuals... But only if you were to put your nose in deep enough.

The Finola field and 'drying their buds' does not smell as pungeant from a distance as my GG spots with drug varieties will do.

Ya just got to put your nose in deep enough, and in doing so there is imo not much difference in fragrancies, but the Finola's are definatly not as 'sticky' to the fingers, or as pungeant as my drug varieties are smelling.

Still, there are plenty of feno's that will pack as many well sized trichs unto their sugar leaves and calyxes as would your average drug variety do.

DutchHempCBD · Aug 17, 2014

Thanks offthehook for your answers. I'm curious as to how further development goes.

Sam_Skunkman · Aug 17, 2014

offthehook said:
My intent was to pollinate them with Diesel ryder and Diesel ryder back crossses to early's exclusively. But yes, the plan got changed a bit indeed, lol.

At first I thought I pollinate the biggest ones by hand, and let the smaller ones go sensi.

But then it seemed to become too much of a job, and so I easely pollinated them all by suspending a vase with male flowers high up on a pole in the middle of the field, lol

Last year, I did it on the way as was originally planned for, but then I only had a quarter of the amount I got this year. Work overload man, lol one's got to pick his battles, ehehe

So to be clear what was the pollen source? And besides the pollen in the vase was there any other source, like a few Finola males, little tiny ones in the middle of the field, or did not one single Finola male flower and drop pollen? How big were the flowers in the vase and how many? To pollinate how many plants, how big, when pollinated? I have done the same pollinating many many female plants 100-1,000 with a single male plant but the male was as big as the females, over 10 feet tall. And seed set was light. I try to use a 1 male to 10, 20, 50, females, I can do more females but I like to have plenty of pollen for my work.
-SamS

offthehook · Aug 18, 2014

Sam_Skunkman said:
So to be clear what was the pollen source? Diesel ryder F5's and several different types of 'earlies' that have been back crossed twice or 3 times to Dieselryder. And besides the pollen in the vase was there any other source, like a few Finola males, little tiny ones in the middle of the field, Not one single Finola pollen was present and there were zero hemies. or did not one single Finola male flower and drop pollen? How big were the flowers in the vase and how many? I used the most cluster full stalks that were cut off from the main stem at about 25 cm lenght. About 50 stalks at a time were in the vase, and I replaced the same amount of male flowers every 3 days during a period of 12 days, so about 200 males to about 150 usefull females, (ofcourse there's over 1500 fems all together).To pollinate how many plants, how big, when pollinated? Most were at between 160 and 240 cm tall. Most were between 3e and 4e week of flowering.I have done the same pollinating many many female plants 100-1,000 with a single male plant but the male was as big as the females, over 10 feet tall. And seed set was light. I try to use a 1 male to 10, 20, 50, females, I can do more females but I like to have plenty of pollen for my work.
-SamS

I got plenty of Diesel Ryder males in open pollinated SOG's in the forest, so male quality and numbers was not much of a problem. I been sampling some bud already and seed set is looking fairly good.

The thing with Finola here is that they won't only finnish their seed, but they will still put their energy in making more new pistills and continue extending their budding sites. Very unlike all other auto's I am familiar with. > The latter type of auto would only finnish up their seed and not make anymore new pistills.

After today's date, there is no sense in keeping males around any longer for them to pollinate the incoming new pistills. If the majority of seed will be finnished in about 4 or five weeks after today, than by the end of September it will already be so cold that they can only go to shit.

Sam_Skunkman · Aug 18, 2014

offthehook said:
I got plenty of males in SOG in the forest, so male quality and numbers was not much of a problem. I been sampling some bud already and seeds set is looking fairly good.

The thing with Finola here is that they won't only finnish their seed, but they will still put their energy in making more new pistills and continue extending their budding sites. Very unlike all other auto's I am familiar with. > The latter would only finnish up their seed and not make anymore new pistills.

After today's date, there is no sense in keeping males around any longer for them to pollinate the incoming new pistills. If the majority of seed will be finnished in about 4 or five weeks after today, than by the end of September it will already be so cold that they can only go to shit.

Well I can tell you that is not my experience with FINOLA, or what I saw with the crop in the Netherlands this year, zero new pistills in the whole crop after pollination. I looked and looked. And that was on the 4th, 2 weeks ago. Maybe the longer day photoperiod up where you are makes the difference, down here in the south at 53 latitude it is different, or your exposure to 24 hours made them react differently, I am not sure, it seems funny that a "Auto" FINOLA would react to photoperiod as they are just supposed to be unaffected by them and be age determinate?
By any chance did you grab a couple of unseeded Finola buds that were very resinous to be tested for the CBD content? To be compared to the CBD content in the seeded FINOLA resinous buds? If AUTO's, shouldn't they flower pretty much the same time regardless of where planted? Autos are age determinate not photoperiod. So if planted at the same time, they should flower at the same time. What date did you plant the Finola seeds up there? In the Netherlands this crop was planted May 20 outdoors.
-SamS

offthehook · Aug 18, 2014

Sam_Skunkman said:
Well I can tell you that is not my experience with FINOLA, or what I saw with the crop in the Netherlands this year, zero new pistills in the whole crop after pollination. I looked and looked. And that was on the 4th, 2 weeks ago. Maybe the longer day photoperiod up where you are makes the difference, Most likely, yes. down here in the south at 53 latitude it is different, or your exposure to 24 hours made them react differently, I am not sure, I don't know, I never had them on 12/12, always 24/0. Either artificial or sun. it seems funny that a "Auto" FINOLA would react to photoperiod as they are just supposed to be unaffected by them and be age determinate? Age determinate for 'the starting to bloom' factor yes. But after seeds are fully ripe they will still continue to make more pistills in here, so they seem to make the most of it so long they'll get plenty of day light hours. In that sense they seem to tap from both worlds indeed.
By any chance did you grab a couple of unseeded Finola buds that were very resinous to be tested for the CBD content? Nope, sorry.To be compared to the CBD content in the seeded FINOLA resinous buds? If AUTO's, shouldn't they flower pretty much the same time regardless of where planted? Temperature and their 'true genetic auto make up' will be the deciding factor on that. Often times, ppl been sending me their presumed auto flowering seed that will presumably auto at their lattitude at 62, but still remain photo at my lattitude of 65. In those situations there will have been some photo sensitive genes gone undetected at their lattitude just. Autos are age determinate not photoperiod. So if planted at the same time, they should flower at the same time. The cold may have a say too in when they are going to shoot into flower. What date did you plant the Finola seeds up there? 10th of May. In the Netherlands this crop was planted May 20 outdoors. In the Netherlands it's already much warmer on the 20th of May in compare to here on the 10th. Root temps below 10C will cause lots of delay in most auto flowers, some will even permanently dwarf because of low temps at sowing date. Finola's seem to manage all this much better, but apparently it will lengthen the duration of their veg period.

-SamS

OTH.

Sam_Skunkman · Aug 18, 2014

offthehook said:
OTH.

Some of what you say must be true. I will ask Jace if the Finola he grows in Finland also makes flowers after being seeded. What % if the bracts were seeded in your crop? In DutchHempCBD's crop it was 100% they were all seeded. Maybe that also makes a difference? I know that cold will stop and kill any Auto, I have seen that, but they did not fully mature and frost out before they died or were harvested. They were making new flowers until the cold wet stopped or killed them. They never did really frost out like most drug varieties do the last few weeks of flowering.
-SamS

offthehook · Aug 18, 2014

Sam_Skunkman said:
Some of what you say must be true. I been doing this long enough to be confident that all I say is true, lol I will ask Jace if the Finola he grows in Finland also makes flowers after being seeded. At what lattitude does Jace grow his Finola's? > One or two degrees more up or down can make a lot of difference in here. What % if the bracts were seeded in your crop? I can not know yet, the pollination has only just been terminated. I would say close to 100 % on the oldest pistills but the rate on the most recently done pistills I still got to see. In DutchHempCBD's crop it was 100% they were all seeded. Maybe that also makes a difference? That seems unpossible to compare it like that. > if I would not pollinate at all for the duration of 8 weeks of flowering, then thoroughly pollinate them all of a sudden, then continuing their cycle in indoors, then the seeds would still ripen up and still make more pistills there after. I have once done it like that, and was as stunned as you are. That's when I realised that Finola is something special and created the project I am currently working on.
I have seen other auto's that continue to flower like that as well, though they would not perform that great at my lattitude only.
The fenomenon is currently known amongst some other auto's as well. Lemme go dig you a link....> Maybe check out the Nevs haze 21 x mullimbimby madness in this thread. A presumed full auto that continues to bud out over time.

https://www.seedshare.co/index.php?/topic/4722-scarholes-inda-grow-garden/page-4

I know that cold will stop and kill any Auto, I have seen that, but they did not fully mature and frost out before they died or were harvested. They were making new flowers until the cold wet stopped or killed them. They never did really frost out like most drug varieties do the last few weeks of flowering. In here they do seem to frost out quite a bit, but like I said it won't become as pungeant or sticky as the drug cultivars. I guess it's a terpenoid thingy just. I seen sugar coated leaves irl on some Finola individuals that could make it fairly easy as a 'pin up of the month' to IC Mags home page, lol.

The more you tell me about what you saw at lat 53, the more it becomes clear to me that Finola was acclimated to more Northern conditions and will only perform to the best of her qualities when exposed to said lattitudes.
-SamS

ODH.

Only Ornamental · Aug 18, 2014

Just to add my :2cents:

:
What I've observed with my Finola cross (and also heard from others) is that the 'phenotypical' autoflowering at my latitude is dominantly inherited. The true auto trait is supposed to be recessive whereas the early flowering trait as it can be found for example in hemp from Central-Russia (Finola's from there too) shows dominant inheritance.
Based on that I'd say Finola is not a real auto but so extremely early flowering (has a very long critical day length) and temperature sensitive that in the end it's the same for almost any climate zone.

Uppsss.... got to run...

offthehook · Aug 18, 2014

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Quote OO: Based on that I'd say Finola is not a real auto but so extremely early flowering (has a very long critical day length) and temperature sensitive that in the end it's the same for almost any climate zone.[/FONT]

I never thought of it like that OO, but it could potentially very well be true what you say.

I have no real methods to check that statement. All I see is that Finola devellops totally different in compare to all other auto's or early's or outcrosses inbetween them.

Putting true auto's on low temp soil will also delay their initial flowering time btw.

So measured by what standards could we figure out if it's a non-photo-period-sensitive photo,lol, or an auto?

Do we have to look at the type of flowering hormones?

Only Ornamental · Aug 18, 2014

offthehook said:
So measured by what standards could we figure out if it's a non-photo-period-sensitive photo,lol, or an auto?

Do we have to look at the type of flowering hormones?

I couldn't find out how exactly an age or size dependent plant realises that it's time to flower and most publications on photoperiodic flowering are based on thale cress (and other long day species) whereas our knowledge on short day plants like hemp is mostly very new and hence incomplete. Experiments are usually done the simple way: Grow at different day/night lengths and observe when/where the plants start flowering

. The hormones are partially the same and partially not (but that latter part is fragmentary especially for short day plants).

How to find out what Finola is? We'd need the following setup (based on some scientific facts and the few Finolas I kept under different conditions):
A: Constant intense light 24/7. I suppose that low light intensity and probably even fluctuations accelerate flower onset or even trigger flowering directly.
B: Cool temperatures. It's known for different hemp varieties that temperatures above the optimum will prepone flower onset and accelerate flowering (the plant will finish earlier too). We are talking about the most northern approved hemp variety, hence the optimum for Finola is pretty low (at least for my Central European sensation

). Don't recall what it was... between 10 and 15°C during vegetative phase? Could or even should be colder during the night... err... wait... there's no night in this experiment

.
C: Due requirements from point B, we need either a volunteer with a pimped fridge or someone from up North with a lit greenhouse or outdoor cooled grow room to run the test.
Under these conditions, autos will never flower, short day plants will sooner or later. If Finola doesn't, one should start a night (maybe 30 minutes longer every week?) and see when it starts... Theoretically and based on the few things we know, the shortest biologically possible night is between 2 and 4 hours. Shorter ones can not be detected (gene expression and so on take their time). But that's the theory, and hence one should still start with a 30 minute night and not directly jump to 20/4 or even the often used 18/6

.

I read in a publication (likely it's a mistake, but still) that certain Russian hemp varieties like Finola were long day plants. Besides short day plants (the norm with cannabis) and photoperiode insensitive ones (autos), this would be the third possibility in nature and might be explored too... Meaning one would have to run Finola at maybe 6/18 (light/darkness) to prevent flowering. I don't think that Finola's gonna like that, though

. One problem arising with this approach is slow growth; if Finola were size or node number triggered, this would lead to a false positive result. Although, no matter how bad or good I grew mine, they flowered without correlation to size and only slightly to node number but reacted probably to light and certainly to temperature... but as said, my 'experiments' with Finola are closer to erratic behaviour than to actual science LoL.

Thule · Aug 19, 2014

offthehook said:
So measured by what standards could we figure out if it's a non-photo-period-sensitive photo,lol, or an auto?

Do we have to look at the type of flowering hormones?

A photoperiod sensitive auto I'd say.

What makes a "true autoflower"?

I'd say a strain in which 99% of the plants flower regardless of day lenght, even under 24 hours light.

All the finola plants I've grown had a certain date when they just started forming flowers in nightless night conditions. They could also be triggered to flower much earlier.

Does inheritance play a role?

It can't be true auto if the trait isn't inherited to the offspring can it?

This kind of autoflowering seems to be passed on differently than in the lowryder family. Instead of getting 1/4 of fast autoflowers and 3/4 of photoperiod sensitive plants in the first inbred generation, you might end up with a full spectrum of plants ranging from seemingly autoflowering plants to plants that only preflower at more than 18 hours of light. Outdoors the difference should be clearer.

Perhaps more than one gene at play? Does Lowryder read Mendel?

I think outcrosses are the best way of determining if we're dealing with actual autoflowering or something else. I have a very late flowering chinese hemp variety crossed to finola which I think will be interesting to test.

Only Ornamental · Aug 20, 2014

Some thoughts on this:
- 'True' autoflowering is a recessive trait following Mendel's basic rules for one locus.
- Photoperiod-sensitive cannabis plants are the norm, which makes this trait a so called 'wild type' (WT). WT alleles are in almost all cases dominant.
- Photoperiodic flower induction, though an off-on switch, is in fact a regulator of sensitivity needed because day and night on earth aren't black and white but full-spectrum grey scale. A plant can either flower or not, it is black and white; hence, a plant needs something like a gamma correction (How's it called in PhotoShop?) to shift perception and tell it which shade of grey is in fact white and which one's black. Setting a threshold could be done by the receptor itself but that wouldn't allow enough flexibility and there had to be a different allele (modified receptor) for every possible flowering time. That way, plants would likely only have an early, an intermediate, and a late flowering 'mutation' but not the continuous spectrum needed to grow all over the world. That's why life/evolution chose a different approach and uses several modulators to shift sensitivity of on-off switches in general. In flowering, plants use something like a water well clock. The instant light's off, the water-tap starts dripping, filling a well on a pair of scales (RNA starts to accumulate). The first regulatory mechanism (RNA degradation) is like a hole in the well. Link most signal transduction pathways, they work like the butterfly principle where a small initial signal causes an avalanche in the end; each step (single molecule) kicks on several of the next. In case of flowering, this would be the protein transcribed from above mentioned RNA. Again, there are negative but also positive regulations (degradation v.s. stabilisation). This thing goes on until the plant bursts into flowers at which point, there's no easy going back, the avalanche hits the valley bottom.
- In an autoflowering plant, due the 1:3 inheritance, only on single negative regulatory factor in the whole machinery has to be defunct. That would explain the different types of autoflowering 'strains' (like 'superautos') and the spontaneously appearance of this trait in several varieties all over the globe. The more stages involved, the more frequent a visual mutation.

At this point, my view starts to blur...
Is it possible, and if so, how, to have 'autoflowering genes' and still posses a functional photosensitivity?

We should start a separate thread for discussions like that

.

oldchuck · Aug 20, 2014

Thule said:
I think outcrosses are the best way of determining if we're dealing with actual autoflowering or something else. I have a very late flowering chinese hemp variety crossed to finola which I think will be interesting to test.

Perhaps a small data point for you big foot scientists to chew on:

Satori (Mandala) X Finola

View image in gallery

10 seeds planted on June 13, 6 popped, 3 turned out males, at 45 N. latitude. Growing in greenhouse, natural light only, now at 68 days from seed.

They are in 9 inch pots, 43 inches to 53 inches tall, say a meter plus. They were all showing flowers at about 30 days, I removed the males and am starting more seeds to see how they do in declining daylight.

Any suggestions?

DutchHempCBD · Aug 20, 2014

For those who are interested. Here's a link to a genome and transcriptome of Purple Kush and 'Finola'. http://genomebiology.com/2011/12/10/R102

Morcheeba* · Aug 21, 2014

i saw this info and found it interesting but not sure if anything may apply to cannabis.

Quantitative Trait Loci for Thermal Time to Flowering
and Photoperiod Responsiveness Discovered in Summer
Annual-Type Brassica napus L.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetc....1371/journal.pone.0102611&representation=PDF

karl.uk · Aug 29, 2014

Hey Guys,
Just a thought, have any of you had any experience with Finola, in taking cuttings ??
Does this work with her being an 'auto' and if so are they stunted and flower earlier ?
Your thoughts on this please ..
Karl...

oldchuck · Aug 29, 2014

You need to do your own experiments, karl.

Dutch pilot experiment: LEGALLY growing organic female hemp flowers high in CBD

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