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First coco grow -> very slow growth

Snypie

Active member
So if i understand correctly in veg does not need to watering to runoff. But i have a question. If i keep the top moist daily does not will be the bottom dry after a x period? Or it will wicking the moisture down?
 

PoweredByLove

Most Loved
the plants will dry out if you only water a little bit a day to keep em moist but they will dry out slower and the roots near the top will grow more. the roots nearest the top are for sucking up food, the lower roots are mainly for sucking up water. so if you give a good watering then keep the top lightly moist it will help generate a stronger bigger root system. so instead of letting em dry out completely and watering every 3-4 days, water once to get a bit of runoff. then water lightly daily to keep the top moist and then water fully after they dry again and repeat. the roots seek moisture which is what makes them grow and expand. so while wet dry cycle is good for tiny seedlings and after a fresh transplant, i find the best root growth by doing the soaking then keeping moist till they need another soaking leads to overall faster thicker root growth. as far as coco is concerned. once they get rootbound enough for multiple feedings a day the growth is explosive. that dtw coco thread is a great read.
 

maimunji

Active member
So if i understand correctly in veg does not need to watering to runoff. But i have a question. If i keep the top moist daily does not will be the bottom dry after a x period? Or it will wicking the moisture down?

Yes coco is like sponge. Plants in coco grow very well without single drop of run off whole grow.
 

Snypie

Active member
the plants will dry out if you only water a little bit a day to keep em moist but they will dry out slower and the roots near the top will grow more. the roots nearest the top are for sucking up food, the lower roots are mainly for sucking up water. so if you give a good watering then keep the top lightly moist it will help generate a stronger bigger root system. so instead of letting em dry out completely and watering every 3-4 days, water once to get a bit of runoff. then water lightly daily to keep the top moist and then water fully after they dry again and repeat. the roots seek moisture which is what makes them grow and expand. so while wet dry cycle is good for tiny seedlings and after a fresh transplant, i find the best root growth by doing the soaking then keeping moist till they need another soaking leads to overall faster thicker root growth. as far as coco is concerned. once they get rootbound enough for multiple feedings a day the growth is explosive. that dtw coco thread is a great read.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. It is now clear in my mind and i understand coco a lot better in this view :)
 
I'm sorry but no runoff? Can't agree with that at all. I recommend to water to runoff at least daily, but it depends on size of pot. The idea is to have constant fresh nutrient supply and flush out old nutrient build ups. I've done 2 daily feedings in 1 gal pots in veg and noticed pretty quick growth. But 1 daily should do the trick as well, as long as you get about 10% runoff or more.
 
Just to note, i've always had explosive root growth in coco. Never really had to try hard for it. Wondering if their are air issues, as i use fabric pots with strong breeze circulating over them.
 

PoweredByLove

Most Loved
i do no runoff. you feed less more often. any air issues would come into play with there being too much water in the media and not enough root mass to suck up the water when the roots suck water they automatically pull in air. fabric pots usually need to be watered more often because they dry faster.
 

maimunji

Active member
I'm sorry but no runoff? Can't agree with that at all. I recommend to water to runoff at least daily, but it depends on size of pot. The idea is to have constant fresh nutrient supply and flush out old nutrient build ups. I've done 2 daily feedings in 1 gal pots in veg and noticed pretty quick growth. But 1 daily should do the trick as well, as long as you get about 10% runoff or more.
You can't agree because?
You tried and not work for you?
 

MickFoster

Active member
A lot of bad advice in this thread in my opinion. Coco is hydroponics and if you want fast growth, the roots need oxygen, and that is achieved by adding perlite to your coco mix and feeding daily to run off. It's not called Drain to Waste Hydroponics for no reason. Daily feeding replenishes the nutes, pulls in fresh oxygen to the root zone, and eliminates any excess salt build up. Never let coco dry out - I feed once a day from sprout and twice a day when in flower, and I never have a discolored leaf.
 

ibreza

New member
Leaching works well but I feel bad polluting for no good reason, since it's easy to get the same results by adjusting a few parameters.
need more oxygen? => grow in smaller container and feed more often
eliminate salt build up? => feed at lower EC in the first place
need to automate your tent? => blumat all the way

When I see the nonexistent rootmass in those pictures, and people advising daily (or more!!) feed with runoff when the plant is starving for Mg... you guys know that you can drown a plant, even in coco.
 

maimunji

Active member
Leaching works well but I feel bad polluting for no good reason, since it's easy to get the same results by adjusting a few parameters.
need more oxygen? => grow in smaller container and feed more often
eliminate salt build up? => feed at lower EC in the first place
need to automate your tent? => blumat all the way

When I see the nonexistent rootmass in those pictures, and people advising daily (or more!!) feed with runoff when the plant is starving for Mg... you guys know that you can drown a plant, even in coco.

Exactly
 

Snypie

Active member
The things do not change... I am very very disappointed :(
Not this is my problem?

"Consequently, plants that do not have enough of some ions such as calcium (there are several) from under feeding or washing out, will show deficiency in these and other elements while the potassium builds up in the plant tissue ultimately to express as margin burning on the leaf surface, mostly at the tip. The first thing the inexperienced grower assumes is that they are feeding too high and have salt issues so they back up the feed concentration and leach the medium. This, of course, magnifies the problem and it gets worse. The key to proper coco growing is to use the right feed to balance the products the coco gives off, not just the availability of minerals, but their ratios too, see figure B. It is equally important to water correctly."

From canna-uk.com
 
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ibreza

New member
Well it's hardly been a week, give it some time. plus your plants are in bad shape so the uptake may be slow.
To speed up the recovery you can foliar feed some epsom salt. mix some water with 0.5g/l epsom salt and spray it on the underside of the leaves.
 

Snypie

Active member
OK, thank you. I sprayed them and raised the lamp. When the leafs are dry i will lower it again. Can i do it again tomorrow?
And please lets talk about the nute strength. So my tap water is 0.5 EC (or 260 ppm). I add nutes (400 ppm/ 0.8EC?? is this enough or strong) till 1.3 EC (660 ppm) + 0.3 gr/liter Epsom. Or the Epsom is in the total 1.3 EC?
I hope you understand what i want to ask.
 

Miraculous Meds

Well-known member
OK, thank you. I sprayed them and raised the lamp. When the leafs are dry i will lower it again. Can i do it again tomorrow?
And please lets talk about the nute strength. So my tap water is 0.5 EC (or 260 ppm). I add nutes (400 ppm/ 0.8EC?? is this enough or strong) till 1.3 EC (660 ppm) + 0.3 gr/liter Epsom. Or the Epsom is in the total 1.3 EC?
I hope you understand what i want to ask.


Hi snypie, lets see if I can help you get on the right track. You can do many different approaches, but ill share with you what works for me and some fundamentals of why. Im going to cover a few basics that you may have well under control, or maybe not, that could cause or exasperate this problem.


First, make sure you have adequate air circulation. All leaves should be lightly moving, but not turbulent. No stagnant spots in the grow area. Second, your temp and humidity should be relative to each other to meet the best vpd. So if your running 80f, in veg, then 70 to 75% is best. If its 30%, or lower, your definitely exasperating the problem. Make sure your light and bulb are performing correctly.


Not all coir is equal, not even the same brand from bag to bag. that's why some people can water daily form the start, while others drown their plants. That, and different environments.


Now lets discuss water frequency. Never let the coir get to the dryness it came out of the bag after putting a plant in it. That, imo, is where the bulk of your problem started. I like to shoot for
about 30% moisture from the original bag dry starting point, before watering again. When I use perlite mixes, I almost always can water the next day. When I use straight coir, if the plant is slow, or I transplant into a bigger pot, it sometimes takes another day before they get to that 30% moisture dryness again. It usually takes 2 to 3 water cycles, or 3 to 6 days before the plants feel too light the next day. this is again where you can start a problem from drying out too much. Now its imperative to water daily and if they get bone dry you must transplant soon, or set up to water multi times, or the constant over drying will cause the nute build up, k tox, mg/ca def, basically everything.


Now lets talk nutrient strength. Im a believer in any decent nutrient line that gives you the correct ratio. Basically, almost any made for this industry. Ive used heads gh 6/9 with great success, but switched to jacks, for cost and to get away from gh's parent co. Plants only need 1 to 1.2ec of base nutrients period (disclaimer, from my experiences of running a lot of elite cuts and seed lines). I learned this nutrient strength concept from h3ad, heath robinson, and a few others. Don't waste your time looking at my work, just take a look at those guys work. It pretty much ends most of the speculation.:)


Now the reason you want to use 1 to 1.2ec from the start is because of coirs cec. In a nutshell it likes to release k and na, unless its has enough ca and mg to balance itself. That's why its important to start with low ec coir. Instead of feeding a higher ec, just increase your water frequency. this replaces the stagnant water, air, and used imbalanced nutes from the last watering, with a perfect ratio and strength of nutrient, with fresh air as an added bonus. Voila, now we are treating it like hydro, and getting that fast vigorous growth we want.



Your tap water, im no expert here. I use ro water. imo, if using a good nutrient that meets basic nutrient profile for coir, then 1 to 1.2ec being enough food, I don't like the idea of adding .5ec of things that could alter the ratio of base nutrients. If you understand your tap analysis and it fits in the correct ratio for cannabis and coir then go for it. A safer approach I would do is to only use half or 1/4 tap to ro water. But the base premise is this for nutrient strength, tap/ro water ec, plus 1 to 1.2 ec base nutrients, plus whatever additives. The key is the base ec being the same strength. Im not a believer in using Epsom in coir, but if u do, keep it low strength as per suggestions.

If you choose to use additives, I wouldn't use any that mess with your base, npk/ca/mg ratios. If you want to use a bloom booster, Keep it at .2ec or lower, and reduce your base to .8 to 1ec, for lighter feeders. But as soon as your in coir, seed sprout or 5' tree, 1 to 1.2ec, all the way through works well.
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I understand your going for no waist, but until you get more familiar with your medium and nutrient, id recommend some run off.


Summary,


Make sure your environment is in check per my suggestions. temp/rh/air circulation


Check that bulb. Change, clean, clean lens.


Now, the biggie, imo, water to runoff with base nutes at 1.2ec, 5.8 to 6 ph. Wait for plant to get to 30% of original driest weight. then water to run off again. After 3 to 4 water cycles (3 to 6 days), they should be dry enough to water daily. when they dry too much within 1 day, then drip. I use open end drip line, usually starting at 4 times a day, then up to 6 to 8 in flower. That all depends on how they are drying, and what size pots your using per plant size. Some strains, may not like that many waterings. I keep an eye on run off ec. don't pay attention to run off ph imo. If the ec goes .4ec above what im feeding, I up my feed frequency or my duration of feed, to compensate for the plant drying too much between waterings, causing the run off ec spike.


Get all this together and your plants should be chugging along in a week or two. gl, hope some of this helps.:tiphat:
 

ibreza

New member
I didn't mean to start a runoff vs no runoff argument, and it won't have any impact on your Mg def.
Give a good spray everyday until you see an improvement. Foliar is fast acting and easy to overdo so be careful. As soon as you see an improvement stop the foliar spray but continue feeding epsom salt.
Right now your plants metabolism is slow so it's no use raising your ec. If you water till runoff, I agree with Miraculous Meds, 1-1.2 sound about right. If you don't leach, 0.8-1 is ok.
And that's for the final mix ec with tap water.
Calcium is responsible for root mass development, and your tap water will help with that.
 

Snypie

Active member
Hy ibreza and Miraculous Meds,

thank you for your help so far. Especially for you ibreza, because you have 6 post and just 5 in my thread. I hope you will not angry with me.
It seems to be Miraculous Meds has right. It is overwatering and this is causing my major problem, but after 5-6 days the smaller plants are not dry enough. And the others don't healthy too.

So i made a hard decision because this makes no sense at all. I know i am impatient but i don't want to spend more time on them.

My plan is the following:
- I want to buy a fresh bag coco which is not so fine. This Plagron is like a mud (maybe i should have used perlite). I lean towards Canna Professional Plus, but i didn't see it in real life so i don't know the consistency.
- I want to change nutes too. Canna Coco A+B, because this is fact it is designed for tap water and everybody is familiar with it. So if you want to help me it will be easier for you aswell.
- I will make cuttings from each plant and if they rooted out i will toss the old ones and start over with the clones.

What do you think guys? Which coco brand is not so fine? I can access everything from Servovendi (this is a growshop in Europe and they carry Plagron, Bcuzz, Atami, H&G, Canna etc.).
And i want a suggestion about using perlite. It is a must in my situation or not?

ps: The enviroment is spot and. I always followed the VPD and the fan is light breezing the plants.
 

Miraculous Meds

Well-known member
Hy ibreza and Miraculous Meds,

thank you for your help so far. Especially for you ibreza, because you have 6 post and just 5 in my thread. I hope you will not angry with me.
It seems to be Miraculous Meds has right. It is overwatering and this is causing my major problem, but after 5-6 days the smaller plants are not dry enough. And the others don't healthy too.

So i made a hard decision because this makes no sense at all. I know i am impatient but i don't want to spend more time on them.

My plan is the following:
- I want to buy a fresh bag coco which is not so fine. This Plagron is like a mud (maybe i should have used perlite). I lean towards Canna Professional Plus, but i didn't see it in real life so i don't know the consistency.
- I want to change nutes too. Canna Coco A+B, because this is fact it is designed for tap water and everybody is familiar with it. So if you want to help me it will be easier for you aswell.
- I will make cuttings from each plant and if they rooted out i will toss the old ones and start over with the clones.

What do you think guys? Which coco brand is not so fine? I can access everything from Servovendi (this is a growshop in Europe and they carry Plagron, Bcuzz, Atami, H&G, Canna etc.).
And i want a suggestion about using perlite. It is a must in my situation or not?

ps: The enviroment is spot and. I always followed the VPD and the fan is light breezing the plants.


The muddy consistency is what I was referring to when I said all coco is not made equally. That is one exact cause of overwatering for some people. I have certainly got batches of coir like that, and didn't know better at the time and did the same thing as you with my plants. One time I bought a large compressed brick, and it had a few course grades of coir in a single block. That would have been fine, if 50% weren't pure muddy sludge material.


I think your new plan is fine. it will give you a little time and more experience trying to get the old plants to bounce back, while your moving on with new cuts. Only downfall is the new cuts might need a little tlc, since they came from unhealthy parents.


Canna will be a fine choice for nutrients too. If you want a set it and forget approach, h3ads gh 6/9 is super easy, and in ro water, eliminates the need for ph'ing, checking nutrient strength, wondering if you have enough of any nutrient in the right concentration. You basically just have to get the environment right, and water frequency. Again, im sure canna is fine, I just haven't used it, and don't know if the base by itself has everything you need, but id guess it does. But im sure there program will tell you that you need 8 more bottles of crap, that you usually don't need. Ive used the gh line, ionic, h n g, and several others, all were fine with just the base at 1.2ec.


brands of coir; I am using char coir currently, but have used botanicare, and several others in the past. Probably any big name should have well flushed, and charged coir. But do your homework and check the ec on new bags each time so you don't get a surprise. Of the list you wrote, id go with canna, but again, they all might be fine.


Ive been back and forth on the perlite issue. No real big advantages with it imo. Maybe a slightly less chance of root blockage on large pots, but I haven't experienced it in the 5 gallon size or smaller. Im leaning towards straight coir these days. It holds more moisture, and that is a benefit in indoor grows, where your main problem, once your dialed in, will be if they dry out too much on you. I used perlite mixes for the longest time thinking they would make me be able to water more often, giving faster results, but what I experienced more was nutrient spikes, and ph drop in the medium, because of a too rapid drying out period between the next water cycle. In the end, straight coir offers a safer buffer of more medium to keep evenly moist. You will be ok either way you choose, just with perlite, you will have to water more.


Remember on the current plants, don't let them dry completely before watering. This is the hardest part to explain to a new grower, because you don't have a feel for it yet. Id suggest taking an equal size pot, that the plants are in, and filling with dry coir. then filling another equal size pot with coir, and completely saturating it. Now use those as your weight markers when you go to check for watering every day. You want about 1/3 heavier than total dry weight. If you water when they are down to that 1/2 to 1/3 moisture level, they will start to bounce back. Water them when they are still too wet, and they drown. Wait to water till they dry completely, and its twice as bad as overwatering. You will get multiple def symptoms from the cec imbalance, and then k tox, which then increases def symptoms. Its a very nasty cycle. Pick them pots up and feel the weight. You will become a pro in no time at it. Patience though, those plants wont be stellar in a week, they will just be popping some new healthy root mass, and starting to be ready for daily watering, where you will start to see new healthy foliage. the old foliage wont heel, so don't fret it.
 

Snypie

Active member
OK, thank you again.
I made the EC test from the bag. It was 20-30 ppm. So the Plagron is fine. And today i read-read-read :) There is no big difference in coir brands.
I see my major problem is watering and i don't know my nutes is made for RO or tap. But i have GH micro (for soft water)-grow-bloom. I read the h3ads thread formerly. I skipped it because there was a debate about different nutes was issued in Europe and in USA. I have the GHE (Genereal Hyroponics Europe) version. What do you think about it?
So maybe i will try the 6/9 (micro/bloom) and will make my homework and measure the dry pot and the saturated pot.
 
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