Are ACE 'pure' strains really pure?

willydread · Oct 25, 2018

beta said:
Unless you're a breeder, you have no reason to hold and grow landraces - They're usually trash when it comes to the traits we care about. The reason breeders like them is that they *might* have unique individual traits somewhere in their genome that we can combine with modern cultivars.

Many of us are collectors, as well as growers and breeders ...
The landraces (although not always a correct term) are unique, I would give most of my seeds to have Mexicans, Thais, Africans or Afghans of the years 50-60-70, when the chances that they were hybridized were nothing .. I would pay gold for authentic non-hybrid Moroccan kif plants, even though they were almost all hermaphrodite and with low potency ....

SolarLogos · Oct 25, 2018

therevverend said:
Or idealism? I think there was a Fabulous Furry Freak Brother comic about that.

Sorry to go off topic, but when you mentioned the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, it brought back so many fond memories of the good old days, when the price of a lid of grass was $20 or so (at least it was in N.Cali), depending on what you got. Smoking, listening to 8-tracks in my 68 Camaro SS (remember the cruise on Friday and Saturday nights?).
I didn't leave the 70's; it left me, ya dig?
Peace, God bless

MJPassion · Oct 25, 2018

willydread said:
I believe that ACE has landraces, worked but not hybridized, and put on the market ...
However, it must be specified that almost no one in the catalog has real landraces, ie varieties collected in the field (if I'm not mistaken even some RSC strains are reproduced in Europe), it is also true that seeds collected in Colombia (for example) is not said to be pure , maybe they were hybridized ten years ago ...
Ps indica is not the devil, but if I take a south Indian variety it should not contain indica, and vice versa an afghana can not have mexican genes

INDICA quite literally means the cultivar was derived from INDIA.
It means nothing more and is not a class of cannabis.

willydread · Oct 25, 2018

MJPassion said:
INDICA quite literally means the cultivar was derived from INDIA.
It means nothing more and is not a class of cannabis.

Ok, i was meaning the "old" word indica....
", but if I take a South thai variety it should not contain indica, and vice versa an afghana can not have mexican genes"
Its better now?

yardgrazer · Oct 25, 2018

SolarLogos said:
Sorry to go off topic, but when you mentioned the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, it brought back so many fond memories of the good old days, when the price of a lid of grass was $20 or so (at least it was in N.Cali), depending on what you got. Smoking, listening to 8-tracks in my 68 Camaro SS (remember the cruise on Friday and Saturday nights?).
I didn't leave the 70's; it left me, ya dig?
Peace, God bless

It's still cheap, but keep in mind $20 in 1970 is worth about $120 or so today.

SolarLogos · Oct 26, 2018

willydread said:
Many of us are collectors, as well as growers and breeders ...
The landraces (although not always a correct term) are unique, I would give most of my seeds to have Mexicans, Thais, Africans or Afghans of the years 50-60-70, when the chances that they were hybridized were nothing .. I would pay gold for authentic non-hybrid Moroccan kif plants, even though they were almost all hermaphrodite and with low potency ....

Thanks Will, I couldn't have said it better myself.
Peace, God bless

Thcvhunter · Oct 27, 2018

willydread said:
Many of us are collectors, as well as growers and breeders ...
The landraces (although not always a correct term) are unique, I would give most of my seeds to have Mexicans, Thais, Africans or Afghans of the years 50-60-70, when the chances that they were hybridized were nothing .. I would pay gold for authentic non-hybrid Moroccan kif plants, even though they were almost all hermaphrodite and with low potency ....

When I drive into town this weekend have wiFi, I’ll post pics of the 70’s Hawaiian I grew out and made a next F-gen with.

The 2 females and one male show its a Mexi x Affy crossed with Thai.

These are not the overly inbred modern “hawaiian” of Greengenes, these are seeds that I got from a dying cancer patient who grew with guys back in the day. These and other seeds from 60’s and 70’s were gifted to me.
They appear to be F1 or F2.

Thcvhunter · Oct 27, 2018

So much misinformation on here.

Ive lost patience so here:

I am buddies with the people who sent in the most varieties of landrace, not even Sam came close to these guys’ submitions.
No, Phylos does not crack the genetic code of the plant for analysis.
No, Phylos cannot determine what a single plant’s genetic makeup is - they cant even say what strain it is; they can only compare a plant to other plants and thus carry on the narrative they and their partners are weaving. That’s billion of dollers in their interests.
To users like Water, if you are determined to believe their koolaid story, tell me the exact process they use to break tge genetic code, because even the government hasnt done that, but they have been comparing expressions(chemical components) since Green merchant. And thats exactly what Phylos is doing, but they just rebrand it better.

To answer the OP,
No. They are not pure. They are not landraces.
They are hybrids. And their true genetic lineages are not listed.

Bangi Haze was originally called White Congo when it was bred by a Vibes member.
NL, Mexi, Affy, Congo, White Widow.
No Nepalese. Indian? Yes, bu no Nepalese.

Ignignokt · Oct 27, 2018

Okey dokey, thanks for the information

PineNuts · Oct 27, 2018

Thcvhunter said:
Phylos does not crack the genetic code of the plant for analysis.

data.opencannabisproject.org/

Looks like Phylos uses Illumina sequencing tech and uploads their data to NIH servers with links available via the open cannabis project. You can run BLAST on there to look for sequences that are indicative of THCV production - if you know what you are looking for. Therein lies the rub, analysis for real information is generally a trade secret as there is very little public research into cannabis genetics. Things will change with time, we can hope.

Thanks goes to ACE for submitting verified samples and for allowing this data to be publicly available, it is invaluable reference material which will only become moreso with the inevitable future of extremely cheap and widely available sequencing technology - when we can all become active researchers.

Classic breeding is an arduous crapshoot. Sequencing quickly reveals all.

Thcvhunter · Oct 27, 2018

When you say thanks goes to ACE for submitting verified samples....how so, when they arent honest about their lineages?

PineNuts · Oct 27, 2018

Thcvhunter said:
they arent honest about their lineages

Can you elaborate?

Water- · Oct 27, 2018

Thcvhunter said:
When you say thanks goes to ACE for submitting verified samples....how so, when they arent honest about their lineages?

they sell a number of hybrids and others are collected from different countries.

Dubi has more integrity in his toe than you do in your whole body.

What have you ever submitted?

all you do is talk trash and lie

Ignignokt · Oct 27, 2018

Well,
I don't want this thread to devolve into a pro/anti ACE seeds argument, but i guess some of the things i was unsure about are being discussed at least.
I just wanted honesty and accuracy....
Thanks again for the conversation.
(I hope ACE is ok with it) :ying:

baduy · Oct 27, 2018

A landrace is a plant taken directly from their naturl habitat, this one has shrunk worldwide apart from a few hotspots spread between the Caspian sea and Himalayan mountains. What Ace sells beside their (great) hybrids are imbred lines based on unalduterated landraces like the recent Lebanese offering and others are works based on different lines from a same area/country like Malawi or ethiopian highland, some like malawi or Panama obviously have a good probability of Adam genes at least from one of the lines they used for making them but they selected with a goal and it results in apparently true breeding sativas of moderate size with moderate flowering times.
Others like OTH are straight preservation projects

I think Ace is what you are after, growing real heirloom varietals is a number game, with 12 seeds you could find a gem but you are also likely to end up with nothing worth keeping, happened to me twice, so if what you want is straight breeding material go for Ace CBG and if you want to chase for something unique and are not afraidof a few unsuccessful sessions RSC is the place

Koondense · Oct 27, 2018

Thcvhunter said:
When you say thanks goes to ACE for submitting verified samples....how so, when they arent honest about their lineages?

I see Ace is doing more than any other seed bank to inform their customers, who else has a proper cannabionid/terpene profile for most of their varieties?
Even legends as for example Chimera or Sam don't reveal proper lineages of their varieties, why would Ace have to serve all the infos?
I think lots of that info is useless to most growers in fact, who cares what are the real parents invovled in BH, it's a description of traits of a F20+ plant which counts, those NL,WW and whatever other involved don't count really(in my opinion) if it was selected to have an effect which can't be compared to the parents after all the generations of breeding.
And they're not even labeled as landraces, just pure lines(further selection) and hybrids with very honest descriptions, well known to be adapted to some degree for indoor growing.
To me it sounds perfect for what a seedbank should offer and I'd love to see more seedbanks raise their standards as did and still does Ace Seeds.

I know there are many other breeders out there with landrace lines and rare genetics but honestly, it's their hobby. Nobody else apart from the circle of friends knows nothing about what they do, seems they like it this way. So I kind of dislike when Ace gets bashed for their practices. Think you and your friends can do(are) better? Show us, do it and see how the people react.
Not meant to be rude at all, more of an encouragement... just think about it.

Have a great weekend everyone! :dance013:

Cheers

mriko · Oct 27, 2018

I've already said this but almost all strains are 'pure stabilized landrace genetics'. OG Kush is Afghan Indica landrace x Lemon Thai landrace. Northern Lights is pure landrace genetics Afghani x Thai. By your and Ace's definition you can claim any strain is landrace. It's very misleading.

What definition are you talking about? I haven't posted anything coming close to that (because that's not what I think) and OG Kush or NL certainly are not landraces (OG Kush is chemdawg x (Lemon Thai x Pakistan Hindu Kush), no Afghani genetics).

I've been avoiding getting into how hybridized Ace's strains are, what they've used to shorten flowering times, increase crystal size and density because it gets contentious. For whatever reason people have decided that 'Indica' or 'Afghani' are bad words and 'impure'.

Strain descriptions are quite clear, and for non-hybridized varieties it's basic cycles of selection/reproduction. Why would "indica" or "afghani" be bad words? Where does that come from ? Nonsense!

I've looked at the genetic analysis of Ace's strains and they show genetic variation too much to be called pure breeding. But pure breeding strains are very rare.

Yeah, I shouldn't talk about concept of "purity" indeed, for that can be misleading. Cannabis follows man wherever he goes, so "purity" is somewhat irrelevant.

What the genetic analysis shows that makes Ace attractive to me is that a lot of their genetics are different then the more common ones. Ace's Panama is a good example. It's genotype is fairly uncommon. Not super rare like some landrace genotypes but quite a bit different then most of the other strains out there.

Hmmm, I've got one drying right now, it's gonna be exceptionnal! But talking about purity is meaningless here as Panama strains (and most of the Carib coast) are the result of the large migrations which happened in the whole region during the digging of Panama canal. People from all countries in the region went there for work and their local genetics along with them.

This is where the 'Afghani landrace' genes become a problem so many strains contain these genes it's become difficult to find strains without it. It's not that these genes are impure or not landrace or whatever it's that they're found everywhere. For a good reason they excel at lowering flower times and increasing resin coverage but it's a good idea to have strains that either don't contain these genes or have a small amount. To maintain genetic diversity.

Well, lots of commercial hybrids do contain Afghani genetics indeed, but not the stabilized landraces we're talking about. Panama is from Panamean lines as Malawi is from Malawi lines. And there are plenty of strains to be found which do not contain Afghani genetics.

I see Ace is doing more than any other seed bank to inform their customers, who else has a proper cannabionid/terpene profile for most of their varieties?
Even legends as for example Chimera or Sam don't reveal proper lineages of their varieties, why would Ace have to serve all the infos?
I think lots of that info is useless to most growers in fact, who cares what are the real parents invovled in BH, it's a description of traits of a F20+ plant which counts, those NL,WW and whatever other involved don't count really(in my opinion) if it was selected to have an effect which can't be compared to the parents after all the generations of breeding.
And they're not even labeled as landraces, just pure lines(further selection) and hybrids with very honest descriptions, well known to be adapted to some degree for indoor growing.
To me it sounds perfect for what a seedbank should offer and I'd love to see more seedbanks raise their standards as did and still does Ace Seeds.

I know there are many other breeders out there with landrace lines and rare genetics but honestly, it's their hobby. Nobody else apart from the circle of friends knows nothing about what they do, seems they like it this way. So I kind of dislike when Ace gets bashed for their practices. Think you and your friends can do(are) better? Show us, do it and see how the people react.
Not meant to be rude at all, more of an encouragement... just think about it.

100% agree with you, and their website should be a blue-print for all other serious breeders as the quantity & quality of information available is like a dream!

Irie!

troutman · Oct 27, 2018

Fact:

In case you people don't know by now.

If you took plants from one or more locations and grew them long enough in another location for
something like over 50 years. They then become a new Landrace adapted to their new environment.

Read this and you'll understand more. :tiphat:

Toward an Evolved Concept of Landrace

PinTac · Oct 27, 2018

Thcvhunter said:
So much misinformation on here.

Ive lost patience so here:

I am buddies with the people who sent in the most varieties of landrace, not even Sam came close to these guys’ submitions.
No, Phylos does not crack the genetic code of the plant for analysis.
No, Phylos cannot determine what a single plant’s genetic makeup is - they cant even say what strain it is; they can only compare a plant to other plants and thus carry on the narrative they and their partners are weaving. That’s billion of dollers in their interests.
To users like Water, if you are determined to believe their koolaid story, tell me the exact process they use to break tge genetic code, because even the government hasnt done that, but they have been comparing expressions(chemical components) since Green merchant. And thats exactly what Phylos is doing, but they just rebrand it better.

To answer the OP,
No. They are not pure. They are not landraces.
They are hybrids. And their true genetic lineages are not listed.

Bangi Haze was originally called White Congo when it was bred by a Vibes member.
NL, Mexi, Affy, Congo, White Widow.
No Nepalese. Indian? Yes, bu no Nepalese.

So you say that Phylos lie when they say they use DNA sequencing? Do you have any evidence of your claim? If so please let us know.

And how are they supposed determine what strain they are analyzing? The bases do not spell out the strain name.

willydread · Oct 27, 2018

Thcvhunter said:
Bangi Haze was originally called White Congo when it was bred by a Vibes member.
NL, Mexi, Affy, Congo, White Widow.
No Nepalese. Indian? Yes, bu no Nepalese.

Bangi haze is also on cannabiogen catalogue, are they scammers and liars too? I do not want to disrespect you, buddy, but I can not believe this version ...
Honestly,and I do not want to do a process for ACE product, there are strains such as Malawi, Panama and Nepal (among other things shared with CBG) on which I have doubts, but I also believe that Kaiki and Dubi have received them as well,so they may have been "contaminated" by those who provided them to them ....

Are ACE 'pure' strains really pure?

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