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Old 01-29-2009, 04:13 PM #1
FOE20
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BlueBerry - The Outlined History by FOE20

BlueBerry loving bruthas and Botany-Breeding friends...
I hope your well medicated and sitting down...
cause Im gana say it real clear as the history of BBerry is sacred but the story is Backward in a few ways..
In all respect to DJ and everything he's done for the entire Cannabis Scene I went thru the quotes and wrote up a time line which I hope is well stated and correct...The main question Im always asked as a BlueBerry Lover is..
Older DJ BBerry?....where are those genetics really?....Do Sag or DP have them?...Yes they do....

How bout a Time line of DJ's life and the whole process...
I wana show how I read these quotes..
You all might find some very Interesting Solid Information in these Words..
I know I have and its the basis for most of what I know and have learned in my time with Cannabis..To me this is some of the most Important Documentation thats ever been published mainly cause it was Honest and Perfect within its descriptions..
Any feedback would be great...so please be gentle..
but most of all Enjoy it...
brutha DJ I hope this meets your standard...

Now for a few Hard notes for you Old Breeders...
Heres the Proper Outline for all....If you don;t see the connections after reading this over than I have nothing more I can add...
"The First Indicas - Afghani Female/Male Had very Low trich production"....
"The Sativas at this time which Dominated the Scene ie: Colum, Pana, Thai, etc..so here ya go..Read it and Weep....
Quote:
Prior to that the Sativa sported more surface hairs and shorter, bulbous, trichome (with the exception of the Highland Thai). Despite the lesser concentrations of trichome compared to some of today’s hybrids, the top quality buds of the era always had a sticky, ‘tacky-ness’ about them.
thats just to warm you up....heheh...Now here it is....my final words and docs on BlueBerry..



______________________________ ______________________________ __________
______________________________ ______________________________ __________

The Comlete History of the Real BlueBerry Sativa/Indica by FOE20 as documented by DJShort

the 70's - DJ is working with 100+ Landrace Sativa Dominant Varieties Indoor and Out..Colum, Mexi, Pana, Thai, etc
Quote:
Originally, in the late 1970's, I was growing up to 100 plants at a time using over 1000 watts of light, and also outdoors in a backyard garden space. These were all land race sativa that fortunately cloned well. The ratio of highly desirable individuals from these plants was about 1:100.
1979 - DJ receives the Afghani Male
Quote:
Interestingly, the resin coated varieties we are accustomed to today had not yet presented themselves. The first totally/densely resin-coated plants of tall-standing trichome came from the F2’s and F3’s I was working with circa 1980. Prior to that the sativa sported more surface hairs and shorter, bulbous, trichome (with the exception of the Highland Thai). Despite the lesser concentrations of trichome compared to some of today’s hybrids, the top quality buds of the era always had a sticky, ‘tacky-ness’ about them. The first indica did sport more of the tall-standing trichs than their sativa counterparts, but not as densely coated as the hybrid varieties to follow (i.e. ‘sugar-coated’ fan/water leaves, large, clear gland heads, etc.).
1980 - Late 80's
1980's, - "Operation Green Merchant forced my experimentation deep underground. Fortunately, the lessons learned prior proved fruitful".
I had already learned to produce f3 and f4 Blueberry (et. Al.).
However, doing so with diminished numbers actually helped boost my learning curve.

1987 - 1990 - Between 1987 to 1990 I was able to do so using less than 100 plants from seed at a time.

1991 - And by 1991 I was able to do adequate selection work from past produced stock using less than 50 plants (seeds) at a time.

1993 - DJ went to Europe (to work for Sag or DPassion?...its kinda confusing but it was actually Sagarmatha)

1994-95 - In 1994 I connected with the first company(Sag) that I worked with in Europe.
By 1995 I was supplying this company with seed-stock both for sale and for breed work.
I had contracted with this company to produce...
Blueberry, Flo and Blue Velvet.

The First Company( Sagarmatha?....yes)..
I worked with in Europe sprouted only 25 seeds of each of these varieties to make selections from. Other than supplying seed-stock, "I was only minimally involved in the selection process..Unfortunately, my relationship with this company was short-lived",,,..
They then Produced and Released....
Blueberry (or “Flow” or Blue Velvet).......in Europe
(plus having over 3,000 seeds that I produced completely ripped off)....

The Second Company(???---DP???...)
I worked with in Europe. At this company about 50 seeds of each variety were sprouted, but I was once again mainly left out of the selection process except for sampling a number of finished products and making selections based on those (which is enough, actually). I never got to see any of the live plants from this selection process at company number two in Europe. I also contributed seed-stock for three more varieties there;
Blue Moonshine, Blue Heaven and Purple Passion.
The owner of this company was satisfied with paying me the minimum amount I would consider adequate.
Fortunately, part of the deal was my ability to remain Independent and work with whomever else I pleased.

1996-98.....who knows...prob getting to know Steve about this time...heheh...

1999-2001 - Switzerland (SOL)
The third company I worked with in Europe was in Switzerland. The owner of this company was able to dramatically push the envelope there and some interesting results blossomed.
I visited Switzerland three times between 1999 and 2001 and was truly amazed at what I witnessed on each visit. Out of all of the companies that I worked with in Europe, I felt the most involved and productive in Switzerland. I was involved with selections of finished products and with live mother and father plants as well. I even got to help plant, transplant and harvest a few of the gems produced there.
The varieties produced by the third company that I worked with in Europe included
Moonshine Rocket Fuel, Rosebud and Blue Satellite.
I must admit that the bubble hash from the Blue Satellite is among the finest and most desirable product I have sampled (outside of my own) since the 1980's!
Unfortunately, the owner of this company was unable to successfully work with the local authorities and was forced to leave Switzerland. Some truly intrepid tales were spun during the brief stay there and I will remember many of them with delight.

2004-Today Canada
Canada, The True North Strong and Free
With glimmers of hope on the horizon, Canada is fast becoming the Cannabis Breeding capital of the world. With the much-appreciated activism of entrepreneurs such as Marc Emery (et. Al.), a new haven for a seriously dedicated cannabis community is developing. One such entrepreneurial dedicate is Red of Legends Seeds.
I met Red in Switzerland where he was very busy and involved working for the happening community there.
Red is a high-flying, free spirit with a savvy sense of taste.
fin..
______________________________ ________________________

I bet DJ don't feel the same about Canada now....heh...jk brah..
Thank you all very much for playing...As said this is Only My Take on what BlueBerry Really is and feel I stated my case well enough..enjoy
FOE20
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:23 PM #2
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Ive posted this before but want to make this a entire DJ based thread..

BlueBerry : My Take on what Were Really Looking For
The Title says it all.....I like to do my own study and I know this is very Old info but figured since Ive been asked allot of base questions on BlueBerry as its my favorite passion I'd just post it for all..Everything I know is based mainly on DJ;s Cult Exceptional Cannabis and Clarks Botany so its not assumption based..

Lets look at the Lineage for DJ's original BlueBerry Line...
You have possibly 3 base phenoms that were used..Even DJ said..."or"...
Actually it was 4...HighlandOaxGold , Choc Thai, Highland Thai(JuicyFruitThai) and a Afghani....

Lets break down what he said note for note........
Quote:
The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai
or............... a female Purple Thai

and a Male Afghani Indica.

Thus there were two possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Now lets Break down the Parents.....

Quote:
Thai
The entirety of the "thread" and bud structure was coated with sweet/fruity aromatic resin glands.

The overall plant color was dark, while the bud structures matured a lighter shade of green, sometimes green/yellow.

I was never able to get a Juicy Fruit Highland Thai to "over mature". I took one to almost 22wks into its flower cycle and she just kept pumping it out. Outdoors, one was taken in early-mid December from a greenhouse. The only difference was that the later harvest was a more stony, body high.

The finished product from the Highland Thai was an all-around champion herb. Though difficult to trim and cure, the outcome was fully worth the effort. It was a powerful, long-lasting and exquisitely flavoured herb with little or no ceiling. The high could last up to seven hours! The flavour, aroma and taste were a totally sweet tropical punch – tutti-fruity all the way.

The Purple Thai was the other sativa in my repertoire. This was a first generation cross between the Highland Oaxaca Gold and the Chocolate Thai. This cross grew medium/tall and was very symmetric in structure. The side branches were shorter and, if left alone (untopped) the main stalk (meristem) remained the dominant shoot.

The entire plant of the Purple Thai was very dark-coloured and would express a deep royal purple colour at the slightest exposure to cold. It did not exhibit any of the spindly bud syndrome of the Juicy Fruit Thai, and the finished buds were a medium and compact sativa type. The finished product was equally as fruity and strong as the Juicy Fruit, also without ceiling.

For whatever aesthetic reason, I preferred the Purple Thai to the Juicy Fruit Highland Thai. I believe that the Purple Thai was emotionally kinder or gentler than the Juicy Fruit. At larger doses the Juicy Fruit could evoke quite a terror, especially when combined with psychedelics. Though no less potent, the Purple Thai seemed easier to handle, including when tripping. The Purple Thai was one of the first to show resin gland production in the early bud cycle, at roughly three to four weeks into the cycle. It also matured at 10 to 12 weeks indoor, and early to mid November outdoors.

Afghani
The Afghani Indica plant is short with large, wide leaves, stout and thick-stemmed. It has early to very early maturation, producing large, dense buds that smell earthen to skunk, with a strong smoke that is generally sedative or "down" in effect. Though consistent in its growth and overall effect, its appeal is somewhat limited in my opinion. I believe more indicas should be made into hashish, which is where the finer qualities of the indica appear.
So IMO...what were looking for is a phenom in a hybrid between JFThai x Afghani....Also what sounds like a Midland Short more chalky skunky Afghani which would explain the 2 sides we see but the Best is the Incredible depth and sweetness the Thai dom Sat BBerry side exudes..
But you still have parents that run 10-12 and I'd say a good 16-22wks with a huge range of phenos just because of the difference in variety between Afghani and Thai..
Whats funny is it sounds like DJ prefered the Danker side ofthe hybrids as he mentiond preference to the Purple Thai over the JFruit..I bet he also liked his Flo and BlueVel line because of this.....interesting indeed..
Anyway its my take on it...hope it makes sense...

I feel a True BlueBerry is JFThai Dom with mild Afghani influence and will run at Least anywhere 12-16wks+..
It would be very easy to prove the theory wrong..Grow out these and harvest at the different times..I'll bet my testies that anything pulled around 9-10wks will be no comparison to a proper 12-15wk fully matured BlueBerry Sativa....Thats where I rest my case...How would I know...I grew and pulled plants for yrs based on Breeder and even what I felt was proper flower times..It just never was as strong as the OutDoor well grown perfectly matured bud that it all should be...That means Harvesting Sativas OutDoors IN late Oct thru Nov or later...So then I ended up following my own theory on it and it proved itself to me...there it be...Thats why I say what I say cause I done that already just like all of us bro....I feel all weed can be great if grown to its variety..I love them all really..
FOE20
Heres the pic as shown and a few notes I put on it that I find interesting..
Note that theres 2 separate BlueBerry Sativas on both sides of the parental lines..Highlighted in Yellow is BBSat on the Left in F-4 position...Also interesting how its didnt show later in the work after F-5..He also introduced the Highland Thai into the Mix in the orig Rel of the BlueBerry Line highlighted strait line under the BBerry Line (F.1) which at that point was Bx'd to that TempleFlo F.3....Then He inbreeds that blueberry line path to stabilize...
I would give credit to who made this outline but not sure where it came from..Thnx to whoever it may be..( ElevatorMan I think it was you brah...or MrAlkaline....sorry fellaz...Respect to the creator..)
https://www.icmag.com/ic/album.php?al...pictureid=9399
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:24 PM #3
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Thanks for making this!

DJ on Dutch Passion Stock:
Quote:
FYI the Dutch Passion Blueberry stock (50 seeds) was the identical stock used for the True Blue (>200 seeds). I did not do any selection on the Dutch project except for finished product analysis, but I assume that they did not select any individuals with leaf anomalies. I hope that helps clear up some of the questions regarding differences between these varieties and their overall selection.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.p...+dj#post676479

DJ on true bb vs bb:
Quote:
True Blueberry (TB) v. Blueberry (BB) differences--here's my view: The TB is more akin (literally closer related to) my past European offerings but from a much larger selection pool that I had more input toward. It (TB) tends to be larger (taller) and a bit more productive than the BB. The BB line that I have offered for the past 7-8 years is from different f3 stock than the TB (yet still related as all of my stock is from similar ancestry). I call her (the BB) a "stretch-indica" in that she does like to stretch her nodes, but her buds are very compact with larger calyx structure ("golf-ball buds"); whereas the TB buds are generally composed of smaller calyx (more slender, "pointy") yet still with a very dense bud structure ("spade-shaped" with some foxtail stretch) on an indica-looking plant. The BB palate is a more "syrupy sweet", fruity smell (more like candy-sweet) while the TB has a higher-nasal palate with astringent/anise undertones (more of a sinus tickle w/ the bud and smoke flavor). I find the TB to be more "heady", almost racy at first, whereas the BB tends to be more body/narcotic in its initial rush and stone duration. Mind you, there is a "range" to both and the above descriptions are in terms of probability and not exclusive to either strain. That is, there is a higher probability of finding a plant w/ small calyx, tight buds with astringent/anise/berry flavor and a more "up-head" in the TB line, and a higher probability of finding a plant with the "stretch-indica" pheno with dense, golf-ball buds and a more candy/berry flavor/palate and a more narcotic (though not really couch-lock) body in the BB line. Both are equally prone to color changes, especially in colder temps, and I find both to be equally potent. Please note; the BB (and the flo and Blue Moonshine) stock is currently limited and not being reproduced for at least a year or two. So, if you want any of these, heads up! Get them soon as they will will be gone and out of stock for awhile when they are.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.p...+dj#post238365
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Old 01-29-2009, 10:31 PM #4
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Quote:
Lets look at the Lineage for DJ's original BlueBerry Line...
You have possibly 3 base phenoms that were used..Even DJ said..."or"...
Actually it was 4...HighlandOaxGold , Choc Thai, Highland Thai(JuicyFruitThai) and a Afghani....
Dj states it was 3

The Afghan was the male and Indica also potent the females side is sativa and up and kind


Quote:
there were three primary p1’s used to make two separate f1 lines that both reacted similarly, with one (the Floral—Purple Thai, or Oregon Purple Thai to be really specific) being generally more “friendly” and the other (the Highland Thai line) being generally more potent. Again, this is “generally” speaking as there were crossover-phenomenon from both lines.
The HOG was used to create OPT with ChocThai

I would personally hold the opinion that TBB is B144 (F4???) xBB(Male F4) M130

Highland Thai was the progenitor to JFT therefore came before it perhaps the JFT was a specific plant or a specific line of HT

I'm also of the opinion most of the colour comes from OPT lines

Kopite

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Old 01-30-2009, 12:30 PM #5
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hey Kopite...Im just adding up whats been documented..I get what you and he both meant tho..thats why I put the "or" highlight...But later in the original BlueLine progression from the TempleFlo he does outcross again with a "HThai/Afghan = HTA"..To me theres clean and dirty phenos..
Clean were - Mexi-HOGold, ChocoThai, JFThai, Afghani
Dirty were - OPThai, JFruit-Afghani?..

H.O.G / ChoThai = OPT
HighlandThai = JuicyFruitThai as DJ verified later..
Afghan - Male
HThai x Afghan - Male (JFThai x Afghan)
Heres the post on the male...
FOE20

Quote:
The Original Indica male used:
Came to me around 1979. I am not entirely certain if these indica were indoor or out, but I am assuming that they were from an indoor op, somewhere out of Norcal. It was very novel herb for the era, obviously quite opposite the sativa varieties of the time. The indica, coupled with the advances in HID lighting, spawned the indoor scene. The novelty soon wore off as the indica by itself was powerful but very, very bland and uninteresting after the first few trials. It did, however, contribute much to the soon-to-be realized diversity present in the species—especially in the controlled indoor environment.

From memory: the plants were very uniform, short, stout, symmetrical; thick hairy stems (bristly almost), large, wide leaves that were also ‘thick’ in texture; dark green in color with almost a sort of ‘blue’ sheen to the leaf surface, but really no purpling—simply dark, deep green; tight, compact nodes with very dense floral clusters of medium-large calyx and a quite distinct earthen, ‘nettle’, musky/skunky aroma throughout its growth cycle—“dead-skunk-under-the-house” smell. This was a very fast finisher done in 7 weeks or so of 12/12 (or thereabouts) often sporting one huge bud if un-topped.

Interestingly, the resin coated varieties we are accustomed to today had not yet presented themselves. The first totally/densely resin-coated plants of tall-standing trichome came from the F2’s and F3’s I was working with circa 1980. Prior to that the sativa sported more surface hairs and shorter, bulbous, trichome (with the exception of the Highland Thai). Despite the lesser concentrations of trichome compared to some of today’s hybrids, the top quality buds of the era always had a sticky, ‘tacky-ness’ about them. The first indica did sport more of the tall-standing trichs than their sativa counterparts, but not as densely coated as the hybrid varieties to follow (i.e. ‘sugar-coated’ fan/water leaves, large, clear gland heads, etc.).
Hope that helps a little—more to come as I recall.
~dj~
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:27 PM #6
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Im workin on a illustrated ver of this...its quite interesting to see..I'll update after its actually complete...Any input welcome fellaz...whatcha think?.....EMan, MrA?.....
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Old 02-01-2009, 05:24 AM #7
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Hey FOE20 et al...

Good stuff...makes for an excellent read.

Don't forget the DJ Short and Chimera Joint releases. Chimera and DJ have such a good relationship that DJ gave him access to his male room for Chimera to make selections from....those males along with the DJ B130 male fathered the Joint releases as well.

Just throwing it out there

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Old 02-01-2009, 05:27 AM #8
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why does DJ just not help everyone out with info / stats / breeding

I see everyone always writing stuff ( good stuff by the way) , but why the master himself does not take it upon him self to help his fans I have no clue.

I don't know how old DJ is or want bad karma for him or anyone, but hope he has some super book to be found upon him leaving this earth with all his knowledge. Considering how much master breeders know. I know they have to keep a place with the seed market, but you would think they help spread the knowledge a little more then they do...

I mean have you seen shanti's greenhouses just full of plants for miles? I'm sure he has a thing or two that could be said about knowledge of plants and breeding.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:49 PM #9
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DJ Short has written acres on the topic - specifically the reason why this forum is so well-attended is the quality, depth and breadth of his writing, and his attention to detail. There are many articles available online, most of them archived here at ICMAG. For an underground breeder with a long, safe history, I think the guy is incredibly open and forthright - where he is, or how old he is, is not really the issue to me. I mentioned before that 'he' may as well be a blonde woman who travels around by submarine, or even a Flying Spaghetti Monster for that matter, but he's also retailing his own semi-legal product, and much of 'the knowledge' is confidential, for obvious reasons.

I'm quite happy to post here, as he often pops in to confirm conjecture, or correct errors, and I know the breeding experiments documented here generally give DJ pleasure, rather than cause for concern, as we're generally trying to adopt the same methodology - observation over technique, empathy over equipment, and the positive use of results (whether success or failure) to constantly improve the product.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:48 PM #10
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Good post Foe...thanks, the new illustrated history chart is a nice visual aid...DD
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