The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

MrBungle · Jun 27, 2018

Good light 1 kw DE... no co2 enrichment... temps are in the low 80s with the lights on RH is 48-52% ... dark time low 70s and haven't looked at dark RH... I don't know which VPD chart to look at and trust...

Am using raw salts, probably too many different ones... I wouldn't mind simplifying my formula at some point...and some ferti organic goodies...

Using peat with crushed oyster shell, EWC, some rock dust, lil bit of crushed crab shell and perlite...

my plants are pretty healthy going through stretch then start to fade week 6-7 I'm hoping spraying them with the ferti-nitro will prevent the fade till a lil later on without affecting the taste.. I'll get some of that biomin Calcium too for earlier on in flower... late veggers probably wouldn't mind a blast of that from time to time either

Many Thanks!!

militia420 · Jun 27, 2018

jidoka said:
Before and the 30 minute pour through.

I use either stem or a custom blend. I would add. A tiny bit of cobalt to stem

So at 160 N I assume good light and close to vpd numbers...yea? CO2? Are you using raw salts?

Anyways a couple of things. With CaNO3 it is easy to get too much Ca into the plant except during stretch. During that time I do not believe in upping CaNO3. The adding drives plant growth so fast Ca ca not keep up. You get stretchy plants and possibly claw

So what I do is spray 6-9 gm of Biomin Ca weekly for 2 weeks

At the end of 2 weeks a couple of things happen. Cell division slows down making Ca less important. It will start to build quickly in the tissue if you don’t cut back.

The 2nd thing that happens is P demand goes up...but not K.

Fortunately nitrate is blocking P uptake. So by dropping cano3 you can solve both those issues. How much I have not worked out exactly but 20% is safe

Now you have a N (or protein) shortage. That is where the aminos come in. You want to use enough to keep them green. I use 9gm/gal 3x a week

Least that is how I do it. Hope that helps

I came across this thread trying to find a standard thread on a quick start to foliar feeding, ie: things to put in your sprayer, frequency, timing, etc. Is there any one who can link my dumb ass to such a straight forward thread? I expect there to possibly be a sticky that I just haven't located with the search feature.

I'd greatly appreciate some help on this. My arthritis is killing my hands while hunting for this info.

bsgospel · Jun 27, 2018

MrBungle said:
Good light 1 kw DE... no co2 enrichment... temps are in the low 80s with the lights on RH is 48-52% ... dark time low 70s and haven't looked at dark RH... I don't know which VPD chart to look at and trust...

Have you also attempted to calculate VPD on your own? It's been some trouble for me. I can't find an equation to trust. There are a few variations out there all with different coefficients. And no explanation for why they use these coefficients. As far as the charts, most seem to have the same numbers, but some are more relaxed as to what is best for plants overall. I think .8- 1.1 is where we want to be depending on your situation.

Like this one appears in a dopey grow video but also appears in a textbook or two, just no explanation for using these coeffeicients vs. Sonnheim coefficients or any other standards:

VPSat - VPAir = VPD

VPSAT= 610.7 x 10 ^((17.5 x Leaf Temp.)/(237.3 + Leaf Temp))
divided by 1000

VPAIR = [610.7 x 10 ^((17.5 x Air Temp.)/(237.3 + Air Temp.))
divided by 1000] x (Rel. Hum./100)]

Does no one truly know or agree on critical temp points or true boiling points? Why 237 when some use 270 or 243?

growingcrazy · Jun 27, 2018

jidoka said:
Before and the 30 minute pour through.

I use either stem or a custom blend. I would add. A tiny bit of cobalt to stem

So at 160 N I assume good light and close to vpd numbers...yea? CO2? Are you using raw salts?

Anyways a couple of things. With CaNO3 it is easy to get too much Ca into the plant except during stretch. During that time I do not believe in upping CaNO3. The adding drives plant growth so fast Ca ca not keep up. You get stretchy plants and possibly claw

So what I do is spray 6-9 gm of Biomin Ca weekly for 2 weeks

At the end of 2 weeks a couple of things happen. Cell division slows down making Ca less important. It will start to build quickly in the tissue if you don’t cut back.

The 2nd thing that happens is P demand goes up...but not K.

Fortunately nitrate is blocking P uptake. So by dropping cano3 you can solve both those issues. How much I have not worked out exactly but 20% is safe

Now you have a N (or protein) shortage. That is where the aminos come in. You want to use enough to keep them green. I use 9gm/gal 3x a week

Least that is how I do it. Hope that helps

Thank you for contributing such detailed information. :tiphat:

Let me see if I have this straight... The biomin @ 6 grams is 80/240ppm (N/Ca) @9 grams is 120/360 ppm. The ferti-nitro is ~@300 ppm N.

bsgospel · Jun 27, 2018

Jidoka- this link is only semi related but I had a thought on your experiment. In this example nitrate absorption had a lag time of an hour. Would you want to try one or two more run through samples at 30 min, 1 hr, & 2 hrs?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...centration-in-culture-solution_fig1_234135793

MrBungle · Jun 27, 2018

bsgospel said:
Have you also attempted to calculate VPD on your own?

I haven't even thought about VPD really... I've only really looked at a few charts.. My goal has been to keep the temps down without completely killing the humidity.. I've been spraying the plants with plain water lately to keep the humidity up... Thats what gave me the idea to find out more about ferti-nitro....

Do you use a laser temp gun to find leaf surface temp?
It almost sounds like the charts are useless if we don't know leaf surface temps?? I'll see f I can find anything to help understand VPD better on the old google

jidoka · Jun 27, 2018

bsgospel said:
Jidoka- this link is only semi related but I had a thought on your experiment. In this example nitrate absorption had a lag time of an hour. Would you want to try one or two more run through samples at 30 min, 1 hr, & 2 hrs?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...centration-in-culture-solution_fig1_234135793

I am definitely gonna do that just to see what order the nutes get taken up. Ca is the one that shocked me. I am looking at Yara as a Ca amendment now.

I am thinking you could screw around and block K uptake with Ca

growingcrazy · Jun 27, 2018

jidoka said:
I am definitely gonna do that just to see what order the nutes get taken up. Ca is the one that shocked me. I am looking at Yara as a Ca amendment now.

I am thinking you could screw around and block K uptake with Ca

You can do just that. You can make a K deficiency appear from foliar Ca if you use enough. Would be a great way to get as much Ca as possible into the plant during stretch. And a great easy to read indicator.

jidoka · Jun 27, 2018

What i have seen time after time is that once Ca hits a certain level you cannot get enough P through the roots. And there ain’t no correcting it cause you ain’t pushing Ca out.

I have not deciphered the interactions that occur, but I have seen it too many times not to believe it

Only happens in soil with stupid foliar. But peat based mixes you don’t need to flocculate clay particles. But you always need P

Anyways

growingcrazy · Jun 27, 2018

The key is finding that point. Once you find the rate to get that very slight K deficiency,you know where to go next time.

led05 · Jun 27, 2018

growingcrazy said:
You can do just that. You can make a K deficiency appear from foliar Ca if you use enough. Would be a great way to get as much Ca as possible into the plant during stretch. And a great easy to read indicator.

amazingly, this happens to me a lot.... once you learn to read it I think it's favorable to just walk the line of a K deficiency except near finish, if possible

jidoka · Jun 27, 2018

I disagree. That is too late

You get Ca 2x K in tissue and foliar is your only option

led05 · Jun 27, 2018

jidoka said:
I disagree. That is too late

You get Ca 2x K in tissue and foliar is your only option

I'm not sure I said 2x's if that was response to me. I like to run high Ca and borderline K deficiency most of the grow (many herbs and veggies this holds true for), except near end was my point where I like to have K higher, still lower than most it seems.... Quality vs quantity here, always but normally get both

growingcrazy · Jun 27, 2018

jidoka said:
I disagree. That is too late

You get Ca 2x K in tissue and foliar is your only option

Too late on bringing K back in tissue #'s if you already pushed Ca or Too late on getting P into the plant when K def. is visible from application of Ca?

So I spray biomin @ 200 Ca through week 3, week 4 gets foliar Calcium phosphate AKA WSC (water soluble calcium) made from egg shells and vinegar. I like to see beginning signs of K def. at week 4. At that point, stop all foliars and add 100ppm P and 80 ppm K to the base nutrient mix once a week for the next three weeks. That stops the K deficiency (on the area of the leaf closer to the petiole) and is enough get full swell at the end. Water only last 2 weeks.

I don't have tissue analysis. I have smoke analysis. Where do the "ideal" numbers for cannabis tissue come from anyways?

Id like to see some kind of tissue analysis posted just to have a look.

growingcrazy · Jun 27, 2018

led05 said:
I'm not sure I said 2x's if that was response to me. I like to run high Ca and borderline K deficiency most of the grow (many herbs and veggies this holds true for), except near end was my point where I like to have K higher, still lower than most it seems.... Quality vs quantity here, always but normally get both

Ca builds up in tissue at twice the rate of K. If too much Ca is already in place, K foliar is the only option to get it into the plant.

A magic Jidoka decoder ring is sometimes required?

slownickel · Jun 29, 2018

Got some 8 and 9% Ca back from Logan Labs. What kind of numbers are folks getting?

jidoka · Jun 29, 2018

If you think my posts are bad try being inside me head for a while.

If things go as planned I will have a test in a month from someone that won’t mind me posting it

But bottom line cannabis is not a mg hog. Too much causes a whole lotta problems. 2nd, in the tissue Ca = K allows P into the plant and that is when the magic occurs

And no, there ain’t no peer reviewed, university, come to Jesus, double blind, whateverelsethefuck science that says that. And you don’t gotta take my word for it

Just my opinion, every single person ought to take it for what they think it is worth. And I admit, absolutely zero is a reasonable option

jidoka · Jun 29, 2018

slownickel said:
Got some 8 and 9% Ca back from Logan Labs. What kind of numbers are folks getting?

What was the P. I have seen a lot of those results

What kinda Al you see?

slownickel · Jun 29, 2018

Leaf analysis in flower

Leaf analysis in flower

Here is a couple. This should be fun.

jidoka · Jun 29, 2018

I have gained enough respect for you to not troll for fun anymore. So I promise it won’t be that kinda interesting

Is that top leaf?

So tell me how I am doing. You have most excellent P numbers so very little larf and high quality. No foxtailing

Probably high on Mg. I find 0.4% to be the point where top and bottom leaf equalize

You have enough K. More than enough ???

How you get that P in there with all that Ca? Ima little jealous

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