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Old 06-05-2018, 03:53 AM #1
harrybreeder198
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Help with plants

Hello guys, I am new here and not so new on cannabis growing. Having been getting this problems and dont know anymore what to try

HPS 1000 and
Standard poting soil (brazilian) 2/3 (my university buys this for they experiments)
vermiculite 1/3

Have watered with peters 30-10-10 2 times withint 2 weeks (light concentration, 1g/L. dont have the ppm) and the second one I also used molasse.

before that i used added a mix with vodoo juice and aminoacids and molasses and a worm castings juice and peters 09-45-14, which I left resting for 3 days with bubbles on. (this was still on the rooting tray)

there are many genetics, the mothers were not showing this symptoms and before I put them to the HID they were not showing this symptoms yet had roots. the RU% is around 50%

The ones I just changed the media and put back in the tray and under cfl 55W are recovering good. I watered them with peters 30-10-10 also, but not with the second molasses

I have also sprayed two foliar fertilizer my friend gave me but I still dont have the labels. Used them with succeess before (this time did not turn the lights off after spraying)

Please feel free to ask any doubts

I measured the ph and ppm on the mix 1:5 (m/v) 10g/50ml and get 6.5 and 680ppm. (deionized water)

Have watered one of them until get enough runoff water for measurement. and got 440 ppm and 6.2 ph. The water i used was 60 ppm and ph 7.2

Thanks for your attention in advance
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Old 06-06-2018, 05:47 PM #2
GoatCheese
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Hi.
To me that looks like over watering damage. I used to champion in it.
To me the soil around the plants looks fairly moist (dark) cause i can see drier soil around the edges of the pot.

When you grow under a powerful HPS with air circulation in the grow area, the top soil can look dry but there can still be plenty of moisture underneath.
..then if you water them till run off every time, eventually the roots will start to suffer, the lower leaves will start to get brown spots and turn yellow and/or will drop off. The top of the plant will start to yellow also, because the plant is in shock caused by drowning (lack of oxygen in the roots) and it can't get nutrients from the soil.
Many people take over water damage as nutrient deficiency of some kind cause it can look the same.

When growing under HPS you don't always want to wait till the leaves get droopy, only occasionally, before next watering. Because especially if you're growing in smaller containers the plants will suffer from dry soil fairly fast under that hot HPS lamp and the tops start yellowing.
So a good way to measure if the soil is dry enough for next watering is by lifting the pot up and feeling if it's light enough. Of course you will have to know how much the pot weighs when it's fairly dry, but in time you will get better at this.

Of course it's not very easy to lift larger pots, but those look fairly small.

How to fix this..
First you allow the soil to dry abit before giving them a larger (till some run off) watering. Before this, the next few times you can give them smaller amounts just to moisten the top soil once it has dried off abit, a little water just for the top part of the container, so that the bottom half will have enough time to get dry.
The next few weeks you take it abit more easy with watering so that the plants get over the shock and the roots/leaves will start growing normally again.

Lift the pots up now if your soil is still as moist as when you took the photos and get a feeling how much they weigh so that you'll know how a moist container will feel in your hands. A dry soil will weigh noticeably less.
When you'll get better at this you can actually feel what part of the container is moist when you rock the container in your hands; if it's only the bottom half you will actually feel it being heavier; if the whole container is fairly evenly moist you'll feel it too. You'll understand/feel what i mean with this in time.



People who over water their plants..
Many times over compensate and will start under watering them, so be mindful of this. How much to water them? This is also easier to understand by feeling the weight of the container.

It's easier to over water plants if they are still abit too small for the container size. When they start to get more size/mass they can handle some over watering abit better.

-
-

"Water till some run off" can be a misleading advice if it's not done the right way. You can actually drench the soil without seeing much run off if you'll give them smaller amounts and allow the soil to really suck up that water before you give them the next dose. Understand what i mean? So to me, the "water till run off" means one bigger dose till you see some run off, i'm sure you understand the difference between the two things.


Because i myself, grow in smaller pots i water my plants by feeling the weight of the pot, i don't use the "till some run off"-method, thou i look for that too. In general i go by the weight of the pot.
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Old 06-08-2018, 04:28 AM #3
harrybreeder198
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Hey Goat, Thanks for your attention mate!

So, i have been taking some of the plants out of the pot to check if the roots are either sick or not growing as wel and always when I do it (which is before watering) the soil humity is between the field capacity and the permanent wilting point. Since the pot has holes at is side and is not big, and has lots of light components (bits of organic matter and expanded vermiculite), in my ideia even after the soil is watered the gravity and capilarity and air flow are always keeping the soil porosity above 10% just after watering. Since there are no colloids of clay and good ammount of organic matter bits from the premix, the soil tends to not get muddy (please enlight me on this matter if you guys have any complementary knowledge).

I am now watering day yes day no about 100ml for 0.45 gallon pot (1.7 litre).
I will really do the test on some of them to check. in some I will really overwater (in my concept of overwatering) In some I will wait 'til it starts to wilt before watering again and in some I will keep on what I am doing.

One point. Last watering I added Ca(NO3)2 on the solution and the plants gave me good response. I will also feed Mg to them via foliar feed to see the results, just waiting more for the calcium nitrate take more effect (or do not take more effect and i change the course of action)



Ps. I wrote it wrong about the voodoo juice. The mix but the voodoo juice I let on bubbles for 3 days. The vodoo juice I added to each cell on the seedling tray voodoo juice solution after watering them with the mix.

Stay High!
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:18 AM #4
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Hi.
I hope you don't mind me saying, but for a not very experienced cannabis grower, as you said it yourself, i think you might be analyzing things abit too much. To me it looks you're making things more complicated than they should be, and when your pondering about "soil porosity % after watering" and "field capacity" and what not, i think you could be over analyzing things abit. I suggest you keep to basics and maybe find and read few grow guides you can find on the internet and grow forums.

If you can afford to run 1000w HPS to test things out on different plants, then i guess you can do that, but i recommend to getting back to basics without too much tests and researching. But it's your grow so do as you please, sure it can be one way of learning, i dunno.

Obviously it's difficult for me to say for sure that you have been over watering them only from few pics but on those pics the soil looks fairly moist to me. Also when plants are being over watered for a while the leaves also droop abit so not all drooping leaves are because the soil is too dry.
Usually it is advised to give your plants "larger" watering, say every other day, than to give them small dosages every day, so that the soil can dry out abit and get some air/oxygen for those roots. But of course this all depends on your grow environment (heat, humidity, air movement etc.) if you have to water them very day then you just have to. Your plants still look fairly small, they don't have a lot of plants matter on them, so i'm wondering if they really need watering every day, but it's difficult to say from here.
---
Normal potting soil shouldn't go "muddy" even if it's over watered, so don't look for muddy soil as a sign of over watering. The soil can still be too moist even if it doesn't look muddy.
---
Different plants have different sized root systems, so keep that in mind. They don't all grow alike.
--

About foliar feeding..

If you're using normal potting soil which has nutrients in it and you're adding nutrients to the soil with water, you don't have to foliar feed them. I use Bio Bizz bottled nutrients myself, and i never foliar feed my plants, a part from giving them some sea weed via foliar spraying. Other than that, i see no need for it, unless i have fucked things up and there's a lock in the root system and i absolutely need to foliar feed them.


Also..
I don't recommend disturbing the plants by taking them out of the pots unless you feel it's absolutely must, especially when the medium is dry cause you can hurt the root system this way. If you have to check the roots by taking the plant out of the pot, you should do it awhile AFTER watering.


I'm not the best grower myself and i'm more interested in smoking the stuff than growing the plants, so maybe other people can give their take on your case.

Hope you'll get it sorted. I recommend checking the basics of soil growing again rather than trying to analyze things yourself when you're not too experienced yet.
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Old 06-08-2018, 12:36 PM #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybreeder198 View Post
Hey Goat, Thanks for your attention mate!

So, i have been taking some of the plants out of the pot to check if the roots are either sick or not growing as wel and always when I do it (which is before watering) the soil humity is between the field capacity and the permanent wilting point. Since the pot has holes at is side and is not big, and has lots of light components (bits of organic matter and expanded vermiculite), in my ideia even after the soil is watered the gravity and capilarity and air flow are always keeping the soil porosity above 10% just after watering. Since there are no colloids of clay and good ammount of organic matter bits from the premix, the soil tends to not get muddy (please enlight me on this matter if you guys have any complementary knowledge).

I am now watering day yes day no about 100ml for 0.45 gallon pot (1.7 litre).
I will really do the test on some of them to check. in some I will really overwater (in my concept of overwatering) In some I will wait 'til it starts to wilt before watering again and in some I will keep on what I am doing.

One point. Last watering I added Ca(NO3)2 on the solution and the plants gave me good response. I will also feed Mg to them via foliar feed to see the results, just waiting more for the calcium nitrate take more effect (or do not take more effect and i change the course of action)



Ps. I wrote it wrong about the voodoo juice. The mix but the voodoo juice I let on bubbles for 3 days. The vodoo juice I added to each cell on the seedling tray voodoo juice solution after watering them with the mix.

Stay High!
In all honesty, I don't know why this product is even in the market place. Unless you live in arid conditions, it retains too much water. Just like humans when you are thirsty, you have a glass of water or 2. When satisfied you stop drinking. Plants do the same, they only replace the moisture loss due to perspiration. Therefore, contrary to some beliefs, we don't place our plants on IV so to speak. Your soil as a "peat" base <--- moisture retention! Plants to no like having cold feet for prolonged periods and while water is present the free exchange of oxygen at root level isn't.
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Old 06-10-2018, 09:55 PM #6
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Originally Posted by Switcher56 View Post
In all honesty, I don't know why this product is even in the market place. Unless you live in arid conditions, it retains too much water. Just like humans when you are thirsty, you have a glass of water or 2. When satisfied you stop drinking. Plants do the same, they only replace the moisture loss due to perspiration. Therefore, contrary to some beliefs, we don't place our plants on IV so to speak. Your soil as a "peat" base <--- moisture retention! Plants to no like having cold feet for prolonged periods and while water is present the free exchange of oxygen at root level isn't.
I did not understand what means "we don't place our plants on IV so to speak".

Well, when water is present really there is no O2 but the dissolved in the water, tough it is a condition on bad managed irrigation situation and naturally on swamps. in the media which marijuana is usually cultivated it is only bad irrigation management that could lead to this. by this I mean either keep watering the plants hourly (or something like that) or have a irrigation system, which are neither of them. Even on clay soils at field the porosity goes above 10% after raining very quickly (not the compacted ones), otherwise there would be no plant life on the surface of earth.

The plant pots have holes at its sides to ensure air circulation and water drainage



update: After addition of calcion nitrate plants start growing, diminuished the appearence of new spots, turn leaves green and quit the stunned growing.
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Old 06-10-2018, 10:43 PM #7
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Make sure your lights ar not to close check PH....so u ' have nute lockouts


kinda looks like an Phosphorus Deficiency



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Old 06-11-2018, 01:15 AM #8
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I did not understand what means "we don't place our plants on IV so to speak". *SNIP
That quote came from the late John Naka!


I read the snipped section, mother nature KNOWS what she is doing. We only mimic her!
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:55 AM #9
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Originally Posted by Switcher56 View Post
That quote came from the late John Naka!


I read the snipped section, mother nature KNOWS what she is doing. We only mimic her!
Thats why next cicle I am making a media which contains 30% (v/v) of Oxidic clays and 1:1 silicated clay and 20% (v/v) of 2:1 silicated clay (expanded vermiculite) that works chemically as 2:1 silicated clay and physically as both 2:1 and sand because at the same time it has affinity with the water, the particles has the size of silt and sand.

In the nature soil has clays (also silt and sand), in Brazil the average amount of organic matter in the soil is around 4%, what is main responsable for retaing charges (Na, Ca, K, Mg, Cu, etc etc) on the brazilian latossolos.
Sure I should try to mimic the original ganja soil that is the ???? one (i would take by chance the afghani soil).
Bottom line, since I started studying soils I started to believe that growing organic ganja is not growing ganja in a mix of organic matter (either decomposed or not) and intert media.
To try mimicking the nature, we must rely on clay. This idea of growing only on organic matter (even pure premix) is one that the organic and inert media producers benefit of people to believe since they want to sell them they products.


Stay high, stay wise!
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