Ph in Organic soil?

Im sure this has been covered somewhere in this sub forum, currently catching up on all the stickies but haven't seen this addressed.

My Soil Mix is at 7.3 PH

It is mainly the compost portion that is at 8.0 and Ive been trying to bring it down as much as possible by adding more peat moss and pine needles but can't get it lower than 7.3

Ive been watering with Rainwater that has 0 PPM and ph it to 6.3, run off still comes out at 7.3.

Is PH an issue with an organic living soil mix ? Please share your experiences with PH and your mix and your results.

All I can do next if I do indeed need to get it to 6.5 is to add Aluminum Sulphate which I want to avoid. And Elemental Sulphur takes too long. And no I did not add any Dolomite Lime to my mix! Nothing with calcium, as I do plan on watering with hard water that has 130PPM Calcium, once I get my ph in check in the mix.

you answered your own question...ADD dom lime

oh just to add ..It is nearly impossible to overload on Cal but ph to high or low will for sure lock cal/mag out and plant will suffer.

Americangrower said:

oh just to add ..It is nearly impossible to overload on Cal but ph to high or low will for sure lock cal/mag out and plant will suffer.

Click to expand...

We are told that Dolomite Lime Buffers, but everything that I have seen reading deeper into this actually just says it will bring acidic towards neutral. But doesn't bring it back down if your over 7. Thats why I said I did not add dolomite lime, that would make my mix more alkaline and even more resistant to going acidic because its a buffer. Anyone with actual experience proving the opposite please post!


Im not necessarily asking for anyone to be able to help adjust my mix. I just want to ask everyone the question, Does PH Mater in Organic Soil in your experience?. I hear people saying they don't even use there ph meters ,and many sources say that lots of compost will make ph not matter as the bacteria work it all out. Meanwhile its my compost that is so alkaline and I don't want to add more. Its a really good compost so its a shame I can't use more.


Also here is my full mix:

VERSION 2.1
- [x] 4 Parts Pro Mix HP
- [x] 3 Parts Compost
- [x] 3 Parts Guinea Pig Manure/Pine Needle Bedding
- [x] 3 Parts Perlite
- [x] 2 Parts Expanded Clay Pellets
- [x] 2 Parts Vermiculite
- [x] 2 Parts Cannabis Stems
- [x] 2 Parts Horse Manure
- [x] 1/4 Parts Charcoal


and my more recent adjustment - both mixes are testing at same PH

VERSION 3.0 ( 1 Cubic Foot)
- [x] 50% MIX 2.1
- [x] 50% PRO MIX
- [x] 1 Cup Bonemeal
- [x] 1 Cup Kelp Meal
- [ ] 1/2 Cup Alfalfa Meal
- [x] 1/2 Cup Blood Meal
- [x] 1/2 Cup Glacial Rock Dust
- [x] 1/4 Cup Azomite

well I grow organic soil. I have never had my soil go over 7 it has always gone lower. I do know that I got lockout for the 1st time in 20 years this year. I never ph my soil or water but used Budswell and Gnatrol for the 1st time. They dropped my water below 5 (yes I had to buy a cheap ph pen) So I can safely say if you want to lower your soil ph add some Gnatrol it will drop it and no gnats is a plus.

It's my understanding that dolomite lime can move acidic ph toward neutral/7, and alkaline ph downward, toward neutral/7.

I, however, test all the dolomite lime I buy, with my own ph test kit, as I've bought dolomite lime before that tested 8+, and wasn't likely what the package -said- it was (*You know how much hassle goes into quality control with human food products, right? How loose do you suppose it gets in the garden amendment-marketing world, if we can't even keep shit out of our food supply?)

That said, Burn1, if I understood his posts correctly, stated ph doesn't really matter in organic growing.

That said, I've found it to be important, and while I often fall a bit shy of the standard and accepted 2-TBSP/gallon of soil, I use dolomite lime regularly when I build soil..

I typically aim for a ph of 6.5 to 6.8, though a fractional point to either side of that won't cause me to lose too much sleep. (*Hell, I hardly sleep anyway.. Who am I kidding??)

Do not add dolomite, you don't need to raise your ph any further.

You can add gypsum to help lower the ph a bit, it isn't going to work miracles.

If you have plants in the mix and are trying to help with pH, top dress with a low pH medium if you can find it. Then water that in with a low pH solution and see what your run off is at. What does your rain water test at? If it is low pH, use that to water with.

If you don't have plants in the mix you can just mix it up with the low pH soil and retest. It is much easier to raise soil pH (lime) than to lower it...

The question of does pH matter... if it didn't we wouldn't have so much discussion about it. Is it required in all situations, no. Will it help in all situations, you bet. With all the hassle we go through, why not dial every aspect.

EDIT: After reading the details of what went into your 3.0 mix, you just added 800+ ppm of just nitrogen alone. Some food for thought.

Have you ran your base mix to see what it does on its own?

EDIT DEUCE: Also, no calcium has been added at all to this mix in any way?

moose eater said:

It's my understanding that dolomite lime can move acidic ph toward neutral/7, and alkaline ph downward, toward neutral/7.

I, however, test all the dolomite lime I buy, with my own ph test kit, as I've bought dolomite lime before that tested 8+, and wasn't likely what the package -said- it was (*You know how much hassle goes into quality control with human food products, right? How loose do you suppose it gets in the garden amendment-marketing world, if we can't even keep shit out of our food supply?)

That said, Burn1, if I understood his posts correctly, stated ph doesn't really matter in organic growing.

That said, I've found it to be important, and while I often fall a bit shy of the standard and accepted 2-TBSP/gallon of soil, I use dolomite lime regularly when I build soil..

I typically aim for a ph of 6.5 to 6.8, though a fractional point to either side of that won't cause me to lose too much sleep. (*Hell, I hardly sleep anyway.. Who am I kidding??)

Click to expand...

Il take a look at some of the burn1 posts. So even if ph mattered. and dolomite lime brought ph down from alkaline towards neutral, it still wouldn't do me any good because Im trying to go past neutral to 6.5

This backs up everything that I have been learning recently. Been reading a fair bit lol. I highly suggest clicking the link for a full explanation. Dolomite Lime is not an option if your soil is alkaline! I think the reason why its such a standard component of mixes and often suggested is because mixes tend to go acidic easily depending on nutrients, and people might not have enough calcium, because they are using RO water or something.

In my case my water is 200PPM and 138PPM is calcium, so I have more than enough being given every single watering. If you think about my calcium in my nutrients if bottled, or compost and amendments, than you don't need to throw in dolomite lime at all even for the sake of calcium. And as I have suggested, Elemental Sulphur seems the only option to lower it ( bacterial ), will take a few months to kick in. and Aluminum sulphate for instant effect.


" If your pH is too low, you need to add lime to bring it up where it belongs, and you may need to add a few hundred pounds per acre of gypsum (calcium sulfate) to provide both soluble calcium and sulfur (which is also often lacking in our soils). Both lime and gypsum will provide calcium, but only lime will raise the pH. Soils with high pH values generally also have very high calcium levels. Applying lime to a soil that already has too high of a pH is never a good idea. If the pH is too high, and we apply lime, we haven’t corrected the original problem, only made it worse. If you have a soil with too high of a pH but you need to supply some sulfur, I usually recommend applying elemental sulfur. This is a material that is consumed by a particular type of bacteria in the soil, and when that happens, they convert the elemental sulfur to hydrogen sulfate, or sulfuric acid. That sounds extreme, but it’s exactly what these soils need to help bring the pH down a bit. In this process we also supply the sulfate ion, which is exactly the same form of sulfur we apply with gypsum (and the form of sulfur that plants actually take up)."

http://onpasture.com/2014/06/02/when-to-use-lime-gypsum-and-elemental-sulfur/

growingcrazy said:

Do not add dolomite, you don't need to raise your ph any further.

You can add gypsum to help lower the ph a bit, it isn't going to work miracles.

If you have plants in the mix and are trying to help with pH, top dress with a low pH medium if you can find it. Then water that in with a low pH solution and see what your run off is at. What does your rain water test at? If it is low pH, use that to water with.

If you don't have plants in the mix you can just mix it up with the low pH soil and retest. It is much easier to raise soil pH (lime) than to lower it...

The question of does pH matter... if it didn't we wouldn't have so much discussion about it. Is it required in all situations, no. Will it help in all situations, you bet. With all the hassle we go through, why not dial every aspect.

EDIT: After reading the details of what went into your 3.0 mix, you just added 800+ ppm of just nitrogen alone. Some food for thought.

Have you ran your base mix to see what it does on its own?

EDIT DEUCE: Also, no calcium has been added at all to this mix in any way?

Click to expand...

I don't think gypsum lowers ph? Its essentially just a source of calcium. I don't need calcium in my mix.
As far as nitrogen, are you referring to 1/2 cup of blood meal that went into 8 Gallons of Soil ?, I think that is the only source of high nitrogen, and 1/2 cup to 8 Gallons is on the low end. I checked quite a few recipes on here... Ive got about 20 of em saved on my comp....lol

I would read Burn1's comments on organic gardening and ph concerns, but I'd also read very closely what growingcrazy wrote above.

The 800 ppm in N and all concentration of sources is likely a serious concern, too.

In days best forgotten, I've used methods similar to growingcrazy's suggestions; watering with H2O treated with cider vinegar, etc., in order to maintain the organic theme while driving the ph downward..

You can also use agricultural sulfur granules in limited quantity. I've done that in my veggie garden every three or so years, due to the 95 ppm of calcium carbonate in my well water (ph-up, essentially, with no real nutritional value for plants), but sulfur takes a while to show movement, and you're looking at a limited window, time-wise. And too much will leave you in dire straits.

The most effective response I've ever had to a "Holy shit!! What happened here" situation, is to get some milder, properly balanced soil going, and, doing as little damage as possible to the plant, put it into something that makes it happier.

Other acidifiers include aluminum sulfate and iron sulfate. While they are faster than sulfur, they're even more restricted in amounts you can use without doing harm, and I don't like them in general. Esp. aluminum sulfate.

Google, Bing or (????) 'organic soil acidifiers.'

All of that said, I have ample experience screwing up gardening efforts with 'too much love.' Or, the Great American theme, "If some is good, then more is better."

PaulieWaulie said:

Il take a look at some of the burn1 posts. So even if ph mattered. and dolomite lime brought ph down from alkaline towards neutral, it still wouldn't do me any good because Im trying to go past neutral to 6.5

Click to expand...

PaulieWaulie said:

This backs up everything that I have been learning recently. Been reading a fair bit lol. I highly suggest clicking the link for a full explanation. Dolomite Lime is not an option if your soil is alkaline! I think the reason why its such a standard component of mixes and often suggested is because mixes tend to go acidic easily depending on nutrients, and people might not have enough calcium, because they are using RO water or something.

In my case my water is 200PPM and 138PPM is calcium, so I have more than enough being given every single watering. If you think about my calcium in my nutrients if bottled, or compost and amendments, than you don't need to throw in dolomite lime at all even for the sake of calcium. And as I have suggested, Elemental Sulphur seems the only option to lower it ( bacterial ), will take a few months to kick in. and Aluminum sulphate for instant effect.


" If your pH is too low, you need to add lime to bring it up where it belongs, and you may need to add a few hundred pounds per acre of gypsum (calcium sulfate) to provide both soluble calcium and sulfur (which is also often lacking in our soils). Both lime and gypsum will provide calcium, but only lime will raise the pH. Soils with high pH values generally also have very high calcium levels. Applying lime to a soil that already has too high of a pH is never a good idea. If the pH is too high, and we apply lime, we haven’t corrected the original problem, only made it worse. If you have a soil with too high of a pH but you need to supply some sulfur, I usually recommend applying elemental sulfur. This is a material that is consumed by a particular type of bacteria in the soil, and when that happens, they convert the elemental sulfur to hydrogen sulfate, or sulfuric acid. That sounds extreme, but it’s exactly what these soils need to help bring the pH down a bit. In this process we also supply the sulfate ion, which is exactly the same form of sulfur we apply with gypsum (and the form of sulfur that plants actually take up)."

https://onpasture.com/2014/06/02/when-to-use-lime-gypsum-and-elemental-sulfur/

Click to expand...

Dolomitic limestone just has magnesium in it also. Same as any other limestone based calcium source in all other regards. Application rates are the same between the two as well ( keeping mg within reason)

Don't try to get fancy with adjusting pH with lime. If you have a low ph, say under 6.2, you could add a calculated amount lime to hit whatever pH it is you are after. If you are at your desired pH, then you need calcium.

PaulieWaulie said:

I don't think gypsum lowers ph? Its essentially just a source of calcium. I don't need calcium in my mix.
As far as nitrogen, are you referring to 1/2 cup of blood meal that went into 8 Gallons of Soil ?, I think that is the only source of high nitrogen, and 1/2 cup to 8 Gallons is on the low end. I checked quite a few recipes on here... Ive got about 20 of em saved on my comp....lol

Click to expand...

Gypsum contains sulfur, sulfur lowers your pH. Like I said, not much but it is a start.

List the NPK and the amounts of your amendments and we will calculate the nutrient content per cubic foot (7.5) gallons of soil in parts per million.

I am basing my 800+ ppm guess on N because 1 cup of bone meal weighs roughly 225 grams. If it is a 3-12-0 bone meal, you just added ~325ppm of N, just in bone meal... let alone the rest, and what was lingering in the soil already.


This is a good set of information to sift through.

https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/doc/library/article_list

This would be my solution to your issues, in a nut shell...

Take your base promix/compost/soil that you have with no amendments, mix in 25% peat to lower the acidity.

Per cuft add:

50 grams bone meal
25 grams kelp meal
25 grams crab meal
200 grams gypsum
100 grams Calphos or soft rock phosphate

Notice that 4 of those 5 contain calcium. Magnesium foliar will most likely be required...use during veg and early flower to build reserves in the plant.

Water with a 6.0 pH and test it.

That got long...lol

USP grade Citric Acid. Mountain Rose Herbs is a good source. It'll take some playing around, but it'll certainly work. I have no idea what amount you'd want to use. It's base pH is 2.2. Derived from natural substances via a fermentation process. Crystalline powder.

Normally, I'd suggest elemental sulfur, but you said that doesn't fit your time frame.



dank.Frank

Hey whats up Paulie!

I believe pH can matter in soil. What happens with soil below 5 pH? Aluminium becomes readily available, disaster strikes. High as hell pH, 9+? Nothing is really available, no nutrients.

I don't know if you do teas or not, I'm a new believer in teas. I would think the higher the fungal matter in what you use to brew would help a bit to lower your soil's pH, it depends on what you use

I want to say some Crustacean Meal mixed in the soil, and top dressed, and maybe even in a tea, with some fish hydrolysate with humic acid would help you.. the crustacean meal is great for long term results, more long term results but are not fast or immediate haha, this might sound stupid, but Cypress wood mulch will help lower the pH over time I have a feeling, because of the fungal dominated bacteria in wood. I wouldn't mix the Cypress mulch into the soil because I've heard of people having terrible nitrogen robbing issues with fresh wood chips and shred in the soil, since its trying to breakdown and make humus, it makes sense.

True humic acid and fulvic acids will help correct your soils pH weather alkaline or acidic, weather its mixed into the soil, top-dressed, or used in a tea, and of course it helps with the breakdown and bio-availability of nutrients in the soil, from what I've read.. I used the humic acid granule form during veg in my teas, and I switched to BioAg's FulPower for flowering, don't know why lol I just did.

I don't know what my soil pH is, would be interesting to see what it is.

Also I'm using the ClackamasCoot soil mix using peat and mushroom compost and EWC/alfalfa/kelp/humic teas during veg, and after one year of using this mix and playing with it, I'm pretty impressed with the results so thanks to everyone on this forum who pointed me that direction.

Gypsum does not generally affect soil pH although it can help lower it with the sulfate with bacteria converting it to sulfuric acid and lowering pH but it takes time it can also help be precipitating out magnesium in the form of Epsom salts but this takes time and not instantly. Using gypsum and ag lime can put a good amount of calcium into the soil but their applications depend on your soil test. If you base saturation of calcium is below 60 and you need to get it up dolomitic lime can be used to raise base saturation even at a higher pH as gypsum will also remove calcium if base saturation is below 60% before removing magnesium leaving you with lower calcium levels and elevated magnesium levels.

7.3 is fine. actually good. keep adding organic components lower in PH like guano's. things will work out quite nicely for you over time. Hint, use high P guano in flower, once the fungi bite hard and take hold of the container you will have no problems dropping the PH.

ps mollases and humic acid will be your friend as well in this journey of balancing out your PH with a starting point of 8-7.3.

moose eater said:

Google, Bing or (????) 'organic soil acidifiers.'

Click to expand...

Bark fines tend to be acidic. LOTS of soil conditioners are basically bark fines infused with fertilizers, whether chemical (Miracle Grow Garden Soil) or organic (Happy Frog).

Vinegar (acetic acid) is acidic, and can be diluted so that it's barely acidic.

It matters because the herd is really easy, to kill off, and the SECOND you run out of sugar in that soil, those bacterias' numbers drop off a lot.

I grew up in a plants shop, later worked in a nursery for a professional agriculture college guy cloning legal shrubbery so all my life I've been around culturing bacterial herd, and or plants.

My parents' first business was an aquariums, ponds, and pets business, and all this is threaded through with full understanding of bacterial herd management.

Plants have a mechanism for separating out the minerals and other substances they can,

the Citric Acid Cycle has a point at which plants having created it, excrete it from their roots,

so the roots can have a go at doing what skajillions of dead bacterial bodies are supposed to do: acidify the local environment,

and make the easier decomposed rock, separate some from the harder - to dis-aggregate any tightly packed substrate,

so it can be surrounded by ever more mildly acidic moisture

giving better dissolving rates so more nutrition can be put into solution.

If you force the roots to do it all, those in the less occupied regions, are simply going to be out pH'd by the ratio of roots to local material.

Anything at all, reduces the magnitude of your herd, in a hurry.

Too cool? Reduced bacterial activity.
Too warm? Reduced bacterial activity.
Too wet? Reduced bacterial activity - low oxygen conditions.
Too dry? Reduced bacterial activity -excessive oxygen conditions
Too little food? Reduced bacterial activity
Too much of several different dissolved solids? Reduced activity.

It really is more than any herd can do alone to acidify a substrate that's not at least had the effort made to feed that herd enough

that they can subsist on something beside what they could normally find dissolving around them.

It's my personal opinion that people don't really know how fragile the herd is,

and they believe the herd is doing more than it's doing.

When you provide the environment that a herd could nominally do well in aside from whatever limitations exist


you're also providing an environment that the mild citric acid excreted by roots can dis-aggregate - make break apart - and surround with fluid,

to put nutritional components into solution
through increased overall area of contact.

It's an 'area of contact' game that you're playing,

alongside a game of making region you water, easily able to be broken down into chemical components the roots will drink in solution.

The two overlap: so if you kill or thin the herd - everyone does - the roots' own mild citric acid, can dissolve some of that food.


My vote after being in or around, whatever, the botany and biology business for about 50 years, is yeah - it helps, to have that water, not kicking the plants in the citric acid excretion levels, everytime you water -

by providing some water that helps the roots' own mild, citric acid secretions, get some nutrition into solution.

If you help the roots by keeping the entire area's pH closer to what the plant would excrete,

you're pre-dissolving or pre-disaggregating material, and getting some,

pre-dissolved into solution, before the roots even get there, to do that job on their own.

Then, as that moisture wicks toward the roots, it carries a wider, nutritionally accessible profile, within it.

If you are using organic soil, shouldn't the PH balance itself out? thats what I've always heard