Laurence Cherniak's 37°C Hashish Cure

Sam_Skunkman said:

You would be surprised how little of the THCA turned to THC from age, it seemed to make as much or more CBNA then THC.
I got this from mediacaljane.com but it what we found when storing bud in the dark at cool room temps 15c-20c? Two years later almost all was still THCA, a little THC and more CBNA. The terpenes were disappearing, the potency with it. With real fresh harvested buds almost all the THC was still in the form of THCA.

"When the plant develops THCA, it usually will be converted to THC as a result of heat or UV light. That being said, THCA can be converted to CBNA over time as well. Prolonged exposure to air causes the THCA to lose hydrogen molecules and oxidize; now we have CBNA. Just like the rest of the acidic cannabinoids, CBNA will convert to cannabinol (CBN) when exposed to heat or UV light."
-SamS

Click to expand...

Thanks, Sam. I am becoming more and more interested in the changes that happen to resin after harvest.

I am particularly interested in finding out what is happening in my favorite types of weed during curing. My favorites seem to be similar to what you described as what you like too.

I like pot that is stimulating and thought enhancing, and are usually NLD types. I have noticed that my WLD and WLD/NLD mixes are generally at or close to their full potential very quickly, sometimes as soon as they are dry, or with only a week or two cure. My favorite kinds, usually straight up NLD, are very different. The difference between fresh (less than a month cure) and the actual finished product (for me usually 4-6 months) is night and day.

When I smoke my best stuff before it is ready, it is still excellent smoke with the kind of head I like. When cured to the point of reaching its full potential though, it is almost like a different drug altogether.

I have lots of experience with other psychoactive compounds, and have devoted significant study to the neurochemical mechanisms of psychoactivity. The difference I describe above in my fav kinds seems to be not just one of magnitude or quantity, but of quality too. It isn't just more of the effect it has uncured, it seems like it is actually a different effect.

The subjective feeling I get is "Wow this buzz feels a lot like 5HT(serotonin receptor) agonism!" (like LSD, mescaline, psilocybin, etc). People tend to focus on CB receptor modulation (because it is so new to science) and either don't know or disregard the activity on the other neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine, and other less well known ones. We tend to focus on the cannabinoids in their role as lipid neurotransmitters, and ignore the action at monoamine, amino acid, peptide, etc etc sites.

We tend also to completely ignore the closely allied concept of neurotransmitter transporters and their modulation of the communication between neurons (I have a feeling or intuition that the terps exert some of their influence this way, as opposed to direct modulation of the receptors).

Have you noticed this too?

If so, what changes are occurring to make this so? It must be stuff other than the main cannabinoids, they don't seem to change significantly over time. It must be the terps, and possibly agents currently unknown to us.

Besides oxidation, what do you identify as the main changes to terps as they age?

Thanks in advance. I really appreciate your contributions here.

Frenchy Cannoli said:

Could you direct me to it, I would really appreciate.
Thanks

Click to expand...

I think a archive of the journal is available with membership with IHA?

Is that right Sam? How much are you guys charging for membership these days? I need to join up.

mofeta said:

I think a archive of the journal is available with membership with IHA?

Is that right Sam? How much are you guys charging for membership these days? I need to join up.

Click to expand...

The IHA is almost gone they don't publish a journal anymore.
12 issues 1994-1999 JIHA
You can find the old Journal the JIHA here:
http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/index.html

The ElSohly interview here:
http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/iha03112.html

Another 14 issues of the JIH from 2002-2008
The newer JIH is here:
http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/journal.html
And here:
http://www.tandfonline.com/loi/wjih20?close=13&repitition=0#vol_13

You can go to the link above and do a search for hemp, some of the JoNF articles are interesting.


Then after 2008, the JIH meshed into the Journal of Natural Fibers, and the IHA pretty much stopped with falling membership from 250+ down to less then 100 by 2007. Nothing lasts forever....
-SamS

Thanks Sam, I really appreciate.
I did read the article and he was speaking about THC in oral preparation which is the closest I have been to a question that has been bothering me for a while to tell the truth.
I have had a lot of traditional Bhang in India (just flowers, water and spices) during the 8 years I spent there and most certainly felt the psychoactive effects which made me believe that a decarboxylation was not mandatory. Same with eating straight Charas that did not go through a decarb either. I guess well dried and cured flowers in a tropical country must go through some serious decarb anyway. Also Dr. Mahmoud A. ElSohly mentioned that there is 20% difference only between THCA and THC, which would explain my experience eating Charas and Bhang in India.

Sam_Skunkman said:

Try looking at http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/faq/12-heating.htm

-SamS

Click to expand...

Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of cannabinoids
Grotenhermen, F.
Clinical Pharmacokinetics, Volume 42, Number 4, 2003 , pp. 327-360(34)

Quote:
In the plant the cannabinoids exist mainly in their carboxylic forms as cannabinoid acids. However, the phenolic form of THC is responsible for the psychotropic and the most medicinal effects. Decarboxylation (separation of CO2) to the phenolic form occurs readily over time, upon heating or under alkaline conditions.

The ratio of THC acids (THCA) to phenolic THC has been reported to range between 2:1 (Africa) and >20:1 (Switzerland) in leaves and flowers of Cannabis sativa. In plants grown in Middle Europe (United Kingdom) from Moroccan, Sri Lankan and Zambian seed stocks the THCA/THC ratio was 17:1 compared with 2:1 in the plants from the original areas (Africa, Asia). In hashish (cannabis resin) the THCA/THC ratio was reported to range between 6.1:1 and 0.5:1, the latter in hashish from India. Thus, the percentage of phenolic THC of all THC in cannabis products varied between less than 5% in cannabis leaves grown in Switzerland up to 65% in hashish from India.

The difference between fresh (less than a month cure) and the actual finished product (for me usually 4-6 months) is night and day.

I've noticed that the longer a plant flowers for, the longer those buds need to be stored to achieve their peak high...anyone who has grown landrace sativas would of noticed this.

I don't think this has been explained why long flowering plants achieve their peak high months after fast flowering strains (If it has, I'm sure Sam will tell us about it)...I'd guess the answer is in the outer shell of the trichome, perhaps long flowering NLD varieties have a thicker "shell" than wide leaf drug varieties and this slows the curing/drying process down, perhaps the trichome outer shell is not thicker, but somehow NLD strain's trichomes release moisture at a much slower rate than WLD varieties...anyone have the actual answer?

Frenchy Cannoli said:

Thanks Sam, I really appreciate.
I did read the article and he was speaking about THC in oral preparation which is the closest I have been to a question that has been bothering me for a while to tell the truth.
I have had a lot of traditional Bhang in India (just flowers, water and spices) during the 8 years I spent there and most certainly felt the psychoactive effects which made me believe that a decarboxylation was not mandatory. Same with eating straight Charas that did not go through a decarb either. I guess well dried and cured flowers in a tropical country must go through some serious decarb anyway. Also Dr. Mahmoud A. ElSohly mentioned that there is 20% difference only between THCA and THC, which would explain my experience eating Charas and Bhang in India.

Click to expand...

I watched how they made Bhang in Calcutta, and Varanasi, first they got a few kilos of legal Bhang leaves from the legal Bhang shop, (Bhang I saw never had buds, really just leaves), boiled it in water for an hour, that decraboxylated them, then mashed them up and made balls out of the leaves which they put through a strainer with the lassie mix With yogurt for a fat carrier, when ordered by a customer, at this point the shop owner delivered the bhang lassie rang a big brass bell, and would say: Jai Shiva Shankar!!
I also visited the Government Bhang and Ganja warehouse in Calcutta they had thousands of kilos imported from other Indian states like Rajasthan, or Bihar, to sell taxed and legal through the Government Ganja shops scattered through the city. It was not that great. Pressed tops, old, and just not that good.
-SamS

Again we had really different experience, I never had or even seen"pre-made" Bhang, always had it "freshly" made mostly with Sadhus and Brahmins. I can't say that I checked closely the quality of ganja they were using but it was ganja, the kind you have seen in Ganja warehouse in Calcutta and was seen all over India. Legal shop in India were not known for their quality.

Bhang shop and Govt. Ganja Warehouse

Bhang shop and Govt. Ganja Warehouse

The first shot is the Bhang shop in a Calcutta market area.
The rest are a visit to the warehouse in the outskirts of Calcutta.
This is the neighborhood on the way.

Calcutta Ganja Warehouse

Calcutta Ganja Warehouse

Here is the warehouse and the administrative office in 1981, as well as the West Bengal govt excise tax people that run the warehouse. The guy in the suit is in charge. The receipt is for 1 kilo of Ganja bought by a licensed govt. Ganja shop to resell.
The lock is what protects the 5,000+ kilos.

This inside the warehouse.
There is over 5,000 kg of Ganja and Bhang.
It was like a lousy heavy pressed mexican.
The guy in charge said that West Bengal used to grow to supply the legal trade but they had stopped and now they buy inferior Ganja from different Indian states. He said that many W Bengal smokers had stopped buying Govt Ganja and now buy better quality for more on the black market or drink homemade alcohol which causes violence and poverty. He thought it was a shame that W Bengal did not still grow their better Ganja and sell it to stop the black market, but he just does what he is ordered to do by the government in charge. At the time they thought that W Bengal would stop all sales within the next few years to come into accordance with the UN single drug convention.
They never did and Bhang is still legal in India and I think Ganja also in some states.
-SamS

I will post a few more of the Bhang shop but they are slides and I will have to scan them first.
-SamS

Amazing pictures, almost brings back the smell of india..
I remember buying some kgs of weed looking like that from local farmers in maharastra.. I made water hash from it in a hotel, and I have never seen so little resin from so much material in my life..
The guys in the hotel was sure we were crazy bringing big blocks of ice to the hotel every morning, we said we used them to cool ourselves to european temperatures..
I have bought some Bhang when in India, but this was in small plastic sachets for 1 rupi a piece,probably government made, mixed with some spices, so it tasted horrible.. I did not like it to much having a ok effec from 3-4 bags.., but a korean friend of mine thought it was very strong with just 2 bags and liked it..., a indian friend of mine uses it to help with his kids epilepsy, seems to work good reducing seizures..
Looking forward to see more pictures..

All the best

BagAppeal

Thanks for the visit, I never visited anything governmental while I was in India in the 80's so this is a real treat.
When you see such a stock in just one warehouse it gives you a little idea of the general consummation of Bhang in India and it has been going on for five thousands years and counting.

Frenchy Cannoli said:

Thanks for the visit, I never visited anything governmental while I was in India in the 80's so this is a real treat.
When you see such a stock in just one warehouse it gives you a little idea of the general consummation of Bhang in India and it has been going on for five thousands years and counting.

Click to expand...

All of the 5,000+ Kg was Ganja, bhang is also available from them, I did not even count that in the 5,000.

I have slides of the whole process or most, of making the bhang lassies, from the dry leaves to the lassie. They are classic. I will try and post them.
I also have slides of the Govt Ganja & Opium shops, and their products, I bought some of each and tried the ganja, I had no interest in the Opium I just took pictures and threw it away.
The Ganja sucked, it was from the Govt warehouse....
Sinsi Ganja from Kerala is way, way, better....
I visited the center of Ayurvedic medicine in Kerala, and found they had a license to grow Cannabis for medicine and permission to make medicines with it. I bought some of the various medicines, mostly for skin problems.
-SamS

What an awesome thread. You guys really kick butt

You really had a in depth look into the whole government Ganja and Opium shops, you are the first person I "met" who did such study. I had no real interest in Ganja at that time and was totally into making Charas so I spend most of my time in the mountains.
I did visit Kerala to check what type of Charas we could make there which was quite nice but nothing like the Hymalayas and not something the locals did, they really smoke Ganja in the South. Thanks again for sharing those pics.

Bhang Shop

Bhang Shop

Here you go a Bhang shop in Calcutta India.
I spent all my time in India, all over India, tracking down good seeds, at libraries looking for old Cannabis info, anything Cannabis, and with growers, smokers, hash makers, as well as looking for good smoke...
It was not just India, I did it in Sri Lanka, Nepal, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, I tried in China, and a whole lots of other places not in the East, that is all I did when ever I could when I was not busy at home growing and breeding seeds.
-SamS

Bhang Shop

Bhang Shop

Here are more.
They boil the Bhang in water for an hour and when most of the water is gone they make little balls to put through a sieve in with the Lassie, you can have 1,2,3, balls in a lassie. You can see the thin silver sheeting on the balls, the people in India put silver foil, or sometimes gold foil on sweets, it is not expensive as both silver and gold can be made into a very very thin foil. Silver has a little taste, Gold, not at all.
-SamS

Bhang Shop

Bhang Shop

More....
My t-shirt says Hashish in Arabic.
The crowd loved me having a Bhang Lassie, ok, but I prefer dry sift.
I loved the owner that rang the bell every time anyone ordered a Bhang Drink or just the Bhang balls they put through the sifter with the lassies, people take them home to eat or make into drinks at home.
Take a good look at his eyes, he drinks Bhang all day long...
-Shiva Shankar!!!

-SamS