Why do breeders sell f2's?

africaseeds · Jul 8, 2019

Why do breeders sell F2's? I don't get it. F1's are supposed to be quite stable, with variation starting in the F2's. That being said you don't need to perform a selection on f1's since their won't really be much variation in F1's you could techically just take any male and any female from the f1's and make your f2's. In f2 you are supposed to see a great deal of variation.

Why do breeders sell f2's? For example Oni Seed Co's Tropicana Cookies are only available in f2's. Why would the breeder choose to do that if they can sell f1's or f3's instead and it would make more sense to do that?

Is there something I'm missing.
Thanks

JockBudman · Jul 8, 2019

In a word? Money.

Basically breeding an F1 takes a shit ton of work to stabilise two lines (because even if you know the source there's no guarantee they're stable true breeders unless you work the lines for a bit) which in itself can take years. That's why true f1 seeds cost so much, even from less capitalist breeders like mr nice or mandala.

For an f2 all you need to do is buy a pack or two of say skunk#1, grow them out, select a male and female and cross them. Boom - 1000 or so seeds of skunk#1. That's how a lot of breeders (most notably Nirvana (allegedly)) got their start, allowing them to start with one room or tent or greenhouse and build up from there. The lesser stability is reflected in price - which allows the hacker to undercut the F1 breeder whilst often sneakily forgetting to mention they're selling f2 stock on promo materials. The average new grower just sees sk#1 at 100 a pack Vs 20 and goes cheap.

As to why not f3? Same deal really. Why would I go to the trouble of mass grows and stabilisation of a line (which is going to take more than going to f3, more like f5 or f6) when I know I can get 20 a pack for my f2 seed with much less work?

It is what it is. I'm not too bothered myself and happily buy f2 seed if there's good reports of good phenos to be found, but then I'm a pheno hunter and hobby breeder so I like variety. If I can get f1s I do - then hack them to make f2s myself :laughing:

Hope that makes sense

:tiphat:

africaseeds · Jul 8, 2019

F1's don't really take that much effort if you are using two stable lines that aren't your own lines(minus the selection of the male and selection of the female of a different strain), just get them to polinate each other. So in modern times you could actually just do the selection for the male and then buy a nice few female cuts from clone nurseries and chuck pollen at those cuts. Am I correct in thinking that f1's aren't that much effort or am I understanding you wrong?

YukonKronic · Jul 8, 2019

africaseeds said:
F1's don't really take that much effort if you are using two stable lines that aren't your own lines(minus the selection of the male and selection of the female of a different strain), just get them to polinate each other. So in modern times you could actually just do the selection for the male and then buy a nice few female cuts from clone nurseries and chuck pollen at those cuts. Am I correct in thinking that f1's aren't that much effort or am I understanding you wrong?

Yes and no. I’m only a wannabe breeder maybe a pollen chucker at best but I believe that because most cannabis is polyhybrid of multiple strains usually not developed to “stable” IBL status then a lot of F1 crosses attempted are more likely to show greater variation because neither parent was bred to stability before the F1 attempt.

If both parents are comprised of mainly dominant genes you may still get hybrid vigour but the predictably of phenotypic expression gets impacted so there will be two or three or even more phenotypes and some that range between the main expressions.

The predictability of breeding with theses types of crosses is even worse. You could get recessive phenotypes from both sides of both parents coming back and have no idea what your looking at unless you’re familiar with the line going back three generations.

JockBudman · Jul 8, 2019

YukonKronic said:
most cannabis is polyhybrid of multiple strains usually not developed to “stable” IBL status then a lot of F1 crosses attempted are more likely to show greater variation because neither parent was bred to stability before the F1 attempt.

This basically.

Skunk #1 is a good example to use because it is/was a stable ibl that was known to be true breeding in crosses.
If you know the history of it you know that it was fucking decades of work by many growers, across two continents to get it to that point. Same with all the old ibl strains like haze, nl etc. They took decades to create. The closest thing you can get to that is landrace stuff worked by one family or village in one area for generations.

Nowadays stuff is mostly polyhybrids based on the original ibl lines but without the decades of huge selection grows that would lock in traits.

Bob Green · Jul 8, 2019

Open your minds a bit people......

It can involve just as much or little selection and actual work to make an F1 as it does to make an F2, F3, F4.....

A person can take two seeds and make an F1 hybrid. A person can hunt through thousands of plants just to get exactly what they want in an F2. Getting to an F3 in a chosen direction is a ton of work and space.

Some plants are of massive value and don't provide much seed yield such as Urkle, and OGKB. This is why we see Mendo Breath F2, Grandpas Breath F2, Dosido F2. It's literally the only way to get mass amounts of seeds out to the public. Look how many lines have been created off of them lately.

Another reason is people lose parental plants all the time. Keeping a vast genetic library alive and healthy is extremely difficult and expensive. Making F2s is sometimes the only option available.

People get sick, plants get sick, people go to jail and plants get murdered, animals and weather kill plants. Sometimes we have to do all we can to recover. Just part of the game. Some folks are just a bit more honest when it happens.

At some point Skunk1 became an F2. Best bet your ass real deal Skunk1 F2 seeds would literally be priceless to the breeding community. Viable Skunk, and Haze F2s from the 70's would get any price people put on them. How much cash do you think a guy like Sam would spend to get those beans? At this point maybe millions!

Lots of great seedlines have been ruined by crappy selection when making F2s. Superior breeding plants that pass on the traits we want can be tricky to locate. A bad male that passes on unwanted traits used in an F2 can be disaster. The right male is an alchemists ready to make gold happen.

The hardest attribute to maintain is hybrid vigor. F1s are hard to match in that aspect.

:woohoo:

dank.frank · Jul 8, 2019

F1 = a x b, right?

Well, F2 = EVERYTHING THAT EVER CREATED A x EVERYTHING THAT EVER CREATED B.

F2 unlocks ancestor genes basically, and creates recombinations of gene pairs that are not otherwise accessible in the F1.

By doing so, you can isolate specific traits from family members to create separate lines, for refinement or recombination in later generations.

It's also were you find recessive gene traits. It's where you find something actually unique.

dank.Frank

aridbud · Jul 8, 2019

^^^^^^^^^^
It's also were you find recessive gene traits = F2's. You see if they are stable, any quirks.

CaptainDankness · Jul 8, 2019

I've definitely found better plants in F2's, but I wouldn't buy them unless it was the only way to get the genetics.

Really most people will be happy with F2's and it's easy to do, probably the same reason pollyhybrids are majority of the market. Why spend years on a F1 when you can make a pollyhybrid sell it for the same price and majority are still going to be happy.

But I think the biggest reason Phylyos thinks they will out breed us is because we only have a few strains with some traits fairly locked down.

dank.frank · Jul 8, 2019

Phylos thinks they can beat us because they think they can identify the alleles and genetic markers responsible for what we see and call "traits". If they can accomplish this task, they only need to small tissue sample to know if a plant is worth growing out past germination stages. They can plant hundreds of thousands of seeds and make selections without ever needing to see a developed plant AND STILL KNOW - they will be carrying forward the genetic material necessary to see progress in the next generation.

The ONLY way a lay person can compete with such technology is to keep what they have that is unique out of the hands of those that might go lick boots. Then the challenge becomes preservation in case of loss - just like it has always been.

If we changed how we tried to preserve these unique cuts we have in our hands, we'd get a lot further in accomplishing those goals, not necessarily in less time, but with much more definitive and progressive outcomes. This topic keeps coming up. :joint:

dank.Frank

Tonygreen · Jul 8, 2019

And for the record there are very few true f1 out there. I see "f1" lines all the time with massive variation. The quality of the parents come into play there.
In real life it is not as basic as "f1" look uniform all the time.
Mendel squares more accurately depict single Gene's not the whole genome.

aridbud · Jul 8, 2019

Tonygreen said:
And for the record there are very few true f1 out there. I see "f1" lines all the time with massive variation. The quality of the parents come into play there.
In real life it is not as basic as "f1" look uniform all the time.
Mendel squares more accurately depict single Gene's not the whole genome.

Yup, yup, yup.

https://growersnetwork.org/cultivation/how-to-grow-200/grow-cannabis-224-mendelian-genetics/

CaptainDankness · Jul 8, 2019

dank.frank said:
Phylos thinks they can beat us because they think they can identify the alleles and genetic markers responsible for what we see and call "traits". If they can accomplish this task, they only need to small tissue sample to know if a plant is worth growing out past germination stages. They can plant hundreds of thousands of seeds and make selections without ever needing to see a developed plant AND STILL KNOW - they will be carrying forward the genetic material necessary to see progress in the next generation.

The ONLY way a lay person can compete with such technology is to keep what they have that is unique out of the hands of those that might go lick boots. Then the challenge becomes preservation in case of loss - just like it has always been.

If we changed how we tried to preserve these unique cuts we have in our hands, we'd get a lot further in accomplishing those goals, not necessarily in less time, but with much more definitive and progressive outcomes. This topic keeps coming up.

dank.Frank

Definitely going to be hard to keep our unique cuts out of their hands. You know as soon as something new is released to the public there are breeders buying them up. Heard Wonderland Nursery is even working with them and it seems like that dude has access to most any clone only available in California.

But if we hold on to the cuts I highly doubt they'll have any better. Maybe uniform from seed and yields like Big Bud but probably about the same quality bud.

But we can probably do just as good really, I know I'm going to cross a Critical Mass male to a GG#4 cut I have just to see if I can find a keeper with the same quality just a bigger yield and quicker flower time. Seemed to work alright with Grand Daddy Purple anyway.

Thcvhunter · Jul 8, 2019

I’d like to clear up some mistakes/misinformation here.

True F1’s are rare on the market.
Ghost OG x Faceoff OG is not an F1
OG x Chem is not an F1
Bubba Kush x GSC is not at F1.
These are all incestuous matings.

A real F1 is the mating of two distinct lines.
GSC x Malawi is an f1.
NL x Haze x Keral is an F1

Skunk is not an F1 or F2. More like F4 or later. Sam did several generations of 1:1 matings to make Skunk #1

F1’s are ideal for vigor and resistance.
F2’s are ideal for pheno(geno)-hunting and for finding or playing with recessive traits.
I release my Skunk work as F2’s so people can find RKS in there.

Basically, F1’s are for growing production (yield)
F2’s are for breeding
F3 or later is for consistency

aridbud · Jul 9, 2019

Correct....hard to get F1's when there's a lot of hybridization going on.

browntrout · Jul 9, 2019

I mostly prefer "F2's" especially when purchasing certain genetics such as breedings of two heavily inbred strains in which any outliers/diversity shows itself and allows a better chance of finding something truly exemplary. I don't prefer buying them at outrageous costs.

troutman · Jul 9, 2019

F1's are easy to make if you like breeding with Heirloom varieties or Landraces.

Just cross something totally unrelated.

africaseeds · Jul 9, 2019

dank.frank said:
Phylos thinks they can beat us because they think they can identify the alleles and genetic markers responsible for what we see and call "traits". If they can accomplish this task, they only need to small tissue sample to know if a plant is worth growing out past germination stages. They can plant hundreds of thousands of seeds and make selections without ever needing to see a developed plant AND STILL KNOW - they will be carrying forward the genetic material necessary to see progress in the next generation.

The ONLY way a lay person can compete with such technology is to keep what they have that is unique out of the hands of those that might go lick boots. Then the challenge becomes preservation in case of loss - just like it has always been.

If we changed how we tried to preserve these unique cuts we have in our hands, we'd get a lot further in accomplishing those goals, not necessarily in less time, but with much more definitive and progressive outcomes. This topic keeps coming up.

dank.Frank

Just gonna put this idea out there. I predict that Phylos will get hacked in the next two years. They will either get hacked by someone opposed to their lack of ethics or by someone else with a lack of ethics with a shortage of genetic information on cannabis.
Just a thought. Not sure who will do it. Either a person acting on their own or by another very big company.

VerdantGreen · Jul 9, 2019

The mistake most people make is to presume that the rest of the seed-buying public want exactly the same thing as they do. This is often not the case.
Some people want F1s for stability and uniformity (and i agree there are few 'proper' F1s out there that are made using stable lines)
Some people want F2s for the increased range of phenos and trait combinations, they want a choice to pick a keeper from, or they want to pick their favorites and make new seeds steering the line in the direction they prefer.

F1s may be uniform but not display the particular traits you were hoping for from a cross. In this case the F2s may be where the pheno's you are looking for can be found.
There is an oldschool saying 'the gold is in the F2s' and this is sometimes the case.

VG

aridbud · Jul 9, 2019

troutman said:
F1's are easy to make if you like breeding with Heirloom varieties or Landraces.

Just cross something totally unrelated.

And who is to say heirlooms or land races haven't been hybridized at some point?

Why do breeders sell f2's?

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