incorrect npk and supplement ratios are some of the reasons for shitty bud

calisun · Jan 16, 2018

Wow you guys are trying to compare indoor to outdoor, small scale to large scale, Hydro to soil, organic to chem. Feels like a waste of time. There is very little you can get out of those comparisons as each has or will need different care. Large scale of course you buying individual elements and amending as need it cheapest and the best way to go. Woo woo juice is not the best way financially for large grows. For small indoors it could be great. There are so many products out there you can find the woo woo juice with ratios that works perfect with your base bag soil for very little cost. Anyway I think anyone that scoffs at amending with individual or scoffs about woo woo juice is a little closed minded as they do not know every situation is a little different.
I read all of slows post and gain valuable information as he is very knowledgeable, been in the farming game for a long time and knows the science behind what he does. I think he sees a lot of soil reports and visited a lot of growers. He has a good understanding of what ratios of elements are working.
Don't be afraid of change. As I don't agree with some of slows Mg points.( I know slow I got way too much in my soil somehow but that's not where I disagree) I am going to try to implement some changes in a section and see what happens. Slow I would love to see some of the herb you are hyping and see if it really compares to the grade A I see.
What it comes down to is genetics are King if people don't see that they are missing the boat

jidoka · Jan 16, 2018

I would argue zero bottled nute formulas have the right Ca:k or k

ratios and none of them have enough mn.

If there is one please let me know. It could indeed work for a small grow

calisun · Jan 17, 2018

jidoka said:
I would argue zero bottled nute formulas have the right Ca:k or k ratios and none of them have enough mn.

If there is one please let me know. It could indeed work for a small grow

I'm not saying it can be found all in one bottle nor am I saying its all organic but
Age old organics makes 5-10-5 fertilizer.
RAW makes a Calmag 13%ca 3%Mg, GH makes a cal mag I think is 5 ca 1 Mg. witch is useful at sometimes. Safergro has a lot of great single chelated minerals. FoxFarms grow 6-4-4 I think works great in their soil and most others. I think most nutrient companies are just discovering Mn value (so am I) and it appears to be short in formulas.
All these products I mentioned can be bought at the local grow store. I'm not trying to say this is the best way to go for everyone. It's more for a closet grow but I can nail down a proper diet for the plants from bottles once I know the what the proper diet is. I'm always learning something new.

jidoka · Jan 17, 2018

I have tried age old. Zero Ca, so be aware of that...but yea that is a good base

calisun · Jan 17, 2018

yeah, I don't like age old myself. Tried it once and had bad results I believe their chemical analysis is off and there was way too much boron in it. I just used that for a npk number example.
btw the pics you been posting look great. Keep up the good work

larry badiner · Jan 19, 2018

Cannabologist said:
Sooo...

Plants come in 2 forms in general when it comes to nutrient uptake, efficient feeders and heavy feeders.

ive noticed that in my own garden, what I think its:

sativa = needs less water
indica = needs more water than sativa
rudealis = ? will score some af's later as a houseplant

i never took biology but since each plant can be unique there has to be some mathematical equation to grow what I call "the perfect enjoyment"

slownickel · Jan 19, 2018

larry badiner said:
ive noticed that in my own garden, what I think its:

sativa = needs less water
indica = needs more water than sativa
rudealis = ? will score some af's later as a houseplant

i never took biology but since each plant can be unique there has to be some mathematical equation to grow what I call "the perfect enjoyment"

Larry,

Excellent observations!

I have found that sativas want more N than indicas...

Your observation about water is more than likely due to an irrigation calculation factor called roughness. Basically the bigger the leaf and leaf density, the more "roughness", meaning more evaporation from the leaf due to its' size, width, etc, thus the observation you have made, the plant wants more water. The sativa will take longer to dry out as a result.

And I also agree with you completely about the mathematical formula for each variety, not just a grow! In large crops like mandarin oranges, an Okitsu has a very different feeding requirement than an Owari. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! Cannabis is the same of that I am sure.

Excellent!

mrrangz · Jan 20, 2018

so much arguing/back and forth and one's trying to prove them selves.

from my experience no one plant feeds the same vs other and no one plant will grow the same in a different environment using exact nutrient profile... obviously

i do believe Ca is wayyyy overlooked and should be loaded before jumping into flowering.. but thats just for a certain strain i work. try the same mix on a different genetic and i end up with excess nitrogen, claws and dark green leaves. Get my point?

The more i learn, the more confusion grows.

hope this helps

slownickel · Jan 20, 2018

Mrrang,

So far, 24 countries, lost count of how many farms, numbers always work provided you understand which science to use per situation. Some of us are actually trained to be agronomists and some of us have actually done work professionally as well as run our own farms.

Sorry about your confusion. I try to help out, maybe take a gander over at the slownickel lounge. Ongoing discussions, several countries, several states, half a million visits or so. I suggest watching the video on the first page. Really helps cut through a lot of confusion if you use numbers.

slownickel · Jan 20, 2018

calisun said:
Anyway I think anyone that scoffs at amending with individual or scoffs about woo woo juice is a little closed minded as they do not know every situation is a little different.
I read all of slows post and gain valuable information as he is very knowledgeable, been in the farming game for a long time and knows the science behind what he does. I think he sees a lot of soil reports and visited a lot of growers. He has a good understanding of what ratios of elements are working.
Don't be afraid of change. As I don't agree with some of slows Mg points.( I know slow I got way too much in my soil somehow but that's not where I disagree)

Cali,

I have no problem adding Mg in the form of K-Mag and it is often part of my recommendation. It does not react like Mg Sulfate.

I also have no problem putting on foliar Mg, also recommended in many situations. Realize that with high Mg it is common to have Mg deficiencies in the leaves! Lack of air and being water logged kills roots.

So, exactly which part of my Mg rec's are you not in agreement with?

Shmavis · Jan 20, 2018

Have I missed the question of whether any of this is relevant when growing from seed?

PoweredByLove · Jan 20, 2018

slownickel said:
Larry,

Excellent observations!

I have found that sativas want more N than indicas...

Your observation about water is more than likely due to an irrigation calculation factor called roughness. Basically the bigger the leaf and leaf density, the more "roughness", meaning more evaporation from the leaf due to its' size, width, etc, thus the observation you have made, the plant wants more water. The sativa will take longer to dry out as a result.

And I also agree with you completely about the mathematical formula for each variety, not just a grow! In large crops like mandarin oranges, an Okitsu has a very different feeding requirement than an Owari. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! Cannabis is the same of that I am sure.

Excellent!

really? can i see some pics of these sativas in flower that require heavy N?

every single sativa i've ever run across hates too much nitrogen. i run my sativa's N deficient from the beginning.

calisun · Jan 20, 2018

slownickel said:
Cali,

I have no problem adding Mg in the form of K-Mag and it is often part of my recommendation. It does not react like Mg Sulfate.

I also have no problem putting on foliar Mg, also recommended in many situations. Realize that with high Mg it is common to have Mg deficiencies in the leaves! Lack of air and being water logged kills roots.

So, exactly which part of my Mg rec's are you not in agreement with?

Poor wording on my part. I just always see posts saying too much Mg in the soil and not to add more. That is true but I never see but may be needed as foliar. I do find Mg very important to the finishing and ripening process. I'm sure your private messages with recommendations talk about that. The average reader of the thread may misinterpret Mg as just being bad.

slownickel · Jan 20, 2018

The average reader is drowning in Mg! The biggest problem we usually have is too much Mg in the soil/medium. This is why it so critical to really look at real numbers.

slownickel · Jan 20, 2018

PoweredByLove said:
really? can i see some pics of these sativas in flower that require heavy N?

every single sativa i've ever run across hates too much nitrogen. i run my sativa's N deficient from the beginning.

Of course there is too much nitrogen if you apply too much nitrogen. Side by side though, in a controlled pure amino acid based N supply, the sativas that I have run against heavy indicas always seem to ask for more.

If you are having N issues, I might suggest you examine the possibilities that you are facing. Maybe there is not enough Mo? Conversion of N using Mo is quite amazing.

If you don't have enough Ca, too much N is always an issue. Given that everyone that has ever done an analysis NEVER has enough Ca.

Without enough B, You can't pick up Ca.

What is your N supply?

slownickel · Jan 20, 2018

Shmavis said:
Have I missed the question of whether any of this is relevant when growing from seed?

Shmavis,

Of all that holes that one can fall in, Calcium is the biggest. The reason is simple, you can't recover from a Ca deficiency, ever. So everyone pretty much starts with a ball and chain around their neck and then want to run.

This is why I get folks to run soil analysis correctly, using procedures for the type of media/soil that one is in. Those that have gone this route and applied their Ca up front in adequate quantities against K, Mg and Na, see excellent results.

Having more K than P, same issue, hard to catch up on that one too.

So yes, roots are roots. Just that if a Mom is malnourished, her clones are not going to form callus on the cut. Many seeds lose viability or have problems for the same issue, not enough reserves, especially Mn.

I will take some photos in February of a couple of grows that I work with to demonstrate my point regarding callus formation. I will probably post those in my thread though... slownickel lounge. Check it out. Lots of analysis, science, results!

jidoka · Jan 20, 2018

The biggest difference I see between farming and weed growing comes down to how much money growers justify spending on nutrients.

Go to a farm and the farmer is looking for the lowest input cost possible. The problems are going to predominately deficiencies. And if that def is an immobile element you is fucked before you start.

Go to a weed grow and it is certain some shit is in excess. Including Ca.

The weird irony is you start taking out those excesses and plant metabolism speeds up. But then you get closer to “balance” and all of a sudden some yellowing.

So now you need to fertilize more often with that balanced feed...not the easiest thing to explain

Anyways, 5 gal pots of coco fed 12x a day is my favorite grow. Turn them yellow in 2-3 days with water

slownickel · Jan 21, 2018

jidoka said:
The biggest difference I see between farming and weed growing comes down to how much money growers justify spending on nutrients.

Go to a farm and the farmer is looking for the lowest input cost possible. The problems are going to predominately deficiencies. And if that def is an immobile element you is fucked before you start.

Go to a weed grow and it is certain some shit is in excess. Including Ca.

The weird irony is you start taking out those excesses and plant metabolism speeds up. But then you get closer to “balance” and all of a sudden some yellowing.

So now you need to fertilize more often with that balanced feed...not the easiest thing to explain

Anyways, 5 gal pots of coco fed 12x a day is my favorite grow. Turn them yellow in 2-3 days with water

What you are seeing is a hungry plant. Everyone that goes down the Ca rabbit hole sees the same thing. The plant is getting hungry. You built an amazing huge skeletal system and now you have to fill it up. Everyone is having to push fertilizers/inputs once on the heavy Ca. The result is higher yield AND higher quality. Yes or No?

Very different feeding little children versus a monster athlete!

jidoka · Jan 21, 2018

Ca was not the key that made the plant hungry. Adjusting Ca up and up eventually causes problems...it does not work magic.

The key is balance. When all elements come into balance hormones also balance. That is what allows you to feed more without getting unhealthy plants.

Go ahead and drive Ca up to 10% in tissue. It ain’t hard...but the fucking stems will be.

The focus on saying there is absolutely too much Mg, not enough Mn, P or Ca...while correct most of the time...can lead people to do stupid shit

slownickel · Jan 21, 2018

jidoka said:
Ca was not the key that made the plant hungry. Adjusting Ca up and up eventually causes problems...it does not work magic.

The key is balance. When all elements come into balance hormones also balance. That is what allows you to feed more without getting unhealthy plants.

Go ahead and drive Ca up to 10% in tissue. It ain’t hard...but the fucking stems will be.

The focus on saying there is absolutely too much Mg, not enough Mn, P or Ca...while correct most of the time...can lead people to do stupid shit

That is why there is analysis. When I speak in generalities, it is because 95% of the time that is the way it is.

I would say that there is easily over a hundred sets of soil tests that have been done correctly from growers on this page and a couple of others. The majority have too much K, too much Mg and not enough Ca. None of them ever had too much Ca. Someone like you comes along and saturates with Ca and then wonder why something goes wrong?

Folks needing Mg is 95% of the time not due to needing Mg. It is because K, Na, Mg or N is in excess or P is deficient.

I recommend Mg foliarly quite often when I see N excess. Works well. Nothing wrong with applying Mg foliarly, it is the soil that is the problem.

incorrect npk and supplement ratios are some of the reasons for shitty bud

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