High P is a scam!?!?

Mr.Mist · Jul 31, 2015

So I've recently done some research on base fertilizers, and it apppears that high P formulations are provided by fertilizer companies, because the customers believe high P is the shit, not because it's beneficial.
A member at UK 420 .com contacted Dyna-Gro about this, and he ended up getting an asnwer from CEO, Dave Neal:
Quote:
"You are correct. We market a high P (Liquid Bloom) "believe" they need this. As you have noted, our Foliage-Pro does a great job start to finish. However, it is simpler to give the market what they think they need than to try to reeducate it. There is some evidence to believe that low N helps to convince a plant to stop its vegetative growth and move into its reproductive phase (flowering), but environmental factors are probably more important. P is typically 5th or 6th in order of importance of the six macronutrients. There is little scientific justification for higher P formulas, but marketing does come into play for the vast majority of users who lack any real understanding of plant nutritional requirements. Therefore, the market is flooded with a plethora of snake oil products that provide little benefit and can actually do harm. For example, one exhibitor at a hydroponic trade show had a calcium supplement with 2% calcium derived from calcium chloride. Can you guess what continued application of 2% chloride would do to plants?'\
I hope this answers your question and am sorry for Zina's inaccurate response.
Cordially,
Dave Neal, CEO
Dyna-Gro Nutrition Solutions"

This isn't the first time I've been told that high P products is a scam and that the benefits from PK boosters is mainly from the high potassium and sulphur content...

Do you know of any base nutes low in P?
Please list them down below..

betshtick · Jul 31, 2015

Biobizz comes to mind. Otherwise a lot of them are light on P on the base nutes but still sell PK boosters. I've had great results with PBP without any boosters. Running EJ I saw a noticeable difference in yield when I added liquid bonemeal (0-10-0).

Piff Rhys Jones · Jul 31, 2015

People have done side by side tests with little to no increase in yield in those plants fed high P boosters, the only difference being that the flavor of the buds fed high P was affected negatively.

I must say though I'm surprised the CEO of a nute company admits his product is useless!

Thanks for posting that info.

Peace

sourpuss · Jul 31, 2015

Interesting... Nother point for the kiss method

waveguide · Aug 1, 2015

the dyna gro guy has some "interesting statements" for nute industry enthusiasts. iirc he's also one of the guys who thinks calcium is about the most important thing to provide. i guess that's why the label doesn't have superheroes and stuff on it.

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

betshtick said:
Biobizz comes to mind. Otherwise a lot of them are light on P on the base nutes but still sell PK boosters. I've had great results with PBP without any boosters. Running EJ I saw a noticeable difference in yield when I added liquid bonemeal (0-10-0).

Bone meal primarily consist of calcium phosphate.
Maybe the positive effects is due to the increased calcium content of your soil. Or if you grow outdoors your soil may contain a bit too little Phosphorous for your plants to truly thrive..

Piff Rhys Jones said:
People have done side by side tests with little to no increase in yield in those plants fed high P boosters, the only difference being that the flavor of the buds fed high P was affected negatively.

I must say though I'm surprised the CEO of a nute company admits his product is useless!

Thanks for posting that info.

Peace

You're welcome, but this is actually not the first time I've heard people admit their "own" product is a waste of money..
I actually got a really good impression of Oregon's only, when I watched the interview with Scott Ostrander(sales rep. and company president), by Monster Gardens, because he said that they only made their guano because their customers wanted it, not because guanos are good products.. And also because he talked about how other companies are threatening to the existence of bats, and that was the main reason their guano was made of seabird shit rather than bat shit...
However I recently received a MSDS on Aphrodite's Extraction, that said it contained monopotassium phosphate, even though the product is labeled 0 - 1 - 0.
Now they seem just as immoral as the rest of the fertilizer companies...

sourpuss said:
Interesting... Nother point for the kiss method

If you're growing because you like smoking then there's no reason not to keep it simple..
But if you(like me) like to be all scientific and experiment with light recipies, fertilizer composition, atmospheric tweaking and so on(because it's fun), then keeping it simple is stupid.
I don't grow to make a profit, neither am I growing to save money.
I'm growing to have fun, and to use my time in a healthy way.
If you really want to keep it simple just put a couple of seeds in some soil in your back yard or a pot in the window, and water it with tap water once a week..
I have a friend growing in a tent, under a 250W HID.
All he does is to fill 2 gallon pots with potting soil, sow one single seed in each one and water with tap water once a week.
It's not the most dank stuff, but if it's all you smoke, it doesn't have to be..

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

betshtick said:
Biobizz comes to mind. Otherwise a lot of them are light on P on the base nutes but still sell PK boosters.

I'm using Iguana Juice(one part) at the moment, and to start with I'll just try to use the IJ grow(labeled 3 - 1 - 3) in flowering, instead of IJ bloom(labeled 4 - 3 - 6).
Biobizz was one of my first thoughts too, but It's not made for hydro and I'm running DWC bubble buckets..
I've also been wondering if I can use a three part micro, like Grow More's(labeled 5 - 0 - 1) or the one by CES(labeled 6 - 0 - 0), and then just add a P/K supplement high in K and low in P, like hammerhead or buddhas tree, along with some kelp based products(which I'd like to use anyway), like Zeus Juice(by Oregon's only), Bio-Cozyme(by Grow More) and Avalanche(by Grow More).
What are your thoughts?

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

Or maybe just Grow More's Fish(labeled 16 - 16 - 16) along with their three part micro? I'd just be scared to have a lower percentage of potassium than nitrogen.. :S
I've always had a higher level of potassium in my reservoir than any other mineral, except for calcium.
And I've been told to have at least 1.5 parts K to 1 part N during veg.
And at least 2 parts K to 1 part N during flowering.

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

waveguide said:
the dyna gro guy has some "interesting statements" for nute industry enthusiasts. iirc he's also one of the guys who thinks calcium is about the most important thing to provide. i guess that's why the label doesn't have superheroes and stuff on it.

Heard!
I've actually been a little embarrassed about using AN's IJ, since I believe most of their customers purchase AN's products because of the names and images on the labels..
I actually started using IJ, because it was(and I think it still is) the only organic one part for hydro..
I've never used any of their other products, mainly because they name their products Bud Candy, Wet Betty, Voodoo Juice and so on.
And because of the images on the products.. It makes me sick!
Like if it was kids without taste purchasing their products..
I also did a whole lot of research before I bowed down to the fact that their product(IJ) was unique..

And yeah.. You don't have to be a biochemist to tell calcium is the mineral required in the biggest quantity, when you know 98.5% of the plant matter consists of Hydrogen, calcium and carbon...

siftedunity · Aug 1, 2015

another reason for me to avoid dyno grow lol. tbh you hear so much conflicting information im not really sure the levels make too much difference overall. i know many growers on here are killing it with regular high p flowering nutes. i think levels are more specific to particular varieties rather than a one size fits all kind of thing. jmo

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

siftedunity said:
another reason for me to avoid dyno grow lol. tbh you hear so much conflicting information im not really sure the levels make too much difference overall. i know many growers on here are killing it with regular high p flowering nutes. i think levels are more specific to particular varieties rather than a one size fits all kind of thing. jmo

Just because you're "killing it" with high P, it doesn't mean high P is the reason for it.
There's also a lot of people growing crap and burning their plants, who have high P in their reservoir, it doesn't mean high P is the reason for it, right?
If you sort out all the claims by fertilizer companies, the prevalent "information" is rarely conflicting..

Lester Beans · Aug 1, 2015

I use bloom booster from the third to sixth week on 8-10 week strains. Done many a side by side and hands down better product. It is widely known plants use P to flower, getting the right ration is key though.

Big bud from Advanced nutrients I use and love it. Half strength for 3 weeks. Go ahead and do a side by side, you will see.

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

Lester Beans said:
I use bloom booster from the third to sixth week on 8-10 week strains. Done many a side by side and hands down better product. It is widely known plants use P to flower, getting the right ration is key though.

Big bud from Advanced nutrients I use and love it. Half strength for 3 weeks. Go ahead and do a side by side, you will see.

It seems you're misunderstanding, but I may be wrong..
PK boosters can easily be beneficial, but doing a side by side test where one is with a PK booster and one is without any, won't show whether or not high P is beneficial or not..
It can just as easily be the potassium or sulfate content of the PK booster, giving you great results..
This thread is solely about whether or not a high P content is beneficial, not about whether or not PK boosters(P+K+S) are beneficial.. Remember PK booster usually contain P in the lowest concentrations and S in the highest concentration, while the concentration of K is in between the two..
Buddhas Tree for instance contains a ratio of about 1 part P to 2 parts K to 3 parts S, so if you have better results with a product like this it's probably because of the K and S, rather than the P content.
And remember, bloom boosters usually contain other substances than mineral ions..

Granger2 · Aug 1, 2015

Mr. Mist,
There's a sizable thread that you could probably dredge up with a thread search about this. Title is something like "Myth of high P" or similar.

I'm pretty sure KISS as in KISS method stands for "Keep it Simple Stoner." lol

I bought a bottle of Iguana Juice Grow a few years ago. I used it for veg till I used it up. My opinion is that it worked well. It's likely to be one of the few organic nutes that will work without clogging in hydro. I am revolted with AN's marketing and all that. For an actual soil or coco grow I wouldn't use it because AN, true to form, follows the letter, but not the spirit of the regs. IJ is a good organic product, but they then process the hell out of it, sterilizing it to kill the beneficials. Works in hydro, but I'd rather have the beneficials in my coco. It has possibilities for use in a nutrient ACT where you're inoculating it anyway. -granger

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

Granger2 said:
Mr. Mist,
There's a sizable thread that you could probably dredge up with a thread search about this. Title is something like "Myth of high P" or similar.

I'm pretty sure KISS as in KISS method stands for "Keep it Simple Stoner." lol

I bought a bottle of Iguana Juice Grow a few years ago. I used it for veg till I used it up. My opinion is that it worked well. It's likely to be one of the few organic nutes that will work without clogging in hydro. I am revolted with AN's marketing and all that. For an actual soil or coco grow I wouldn't use it because AN, true to form, follows the letter, but not the spirit of the regs. IJ is a good organic product, but they then process the hell out of it, sterilizing it to kill the beneficials. Works in hydro, but I'd rather have the beneficials in my coco. It has possibilities for use in a nutrient ACT where you're inoculating it anyway. -granger

I've always been under the impression that KISS stands for Keep It Simple Stupid(I guess it doesn't really matter, since the last S is obviously there to make the abreviation fit with the word "kiss")..

I too have good experiences with IJ, both grow and bloom, even though the bloom stinks horribly, as opposed what AN claims on their website.
I wouldn't be using it if I were using any other system than I am now(DWC nonrecirculating bubble buckets).
In other hydro systems I'd be worried about clogging pumps and in hand watered coco or soil I'd have the oppertunity to use organic products of other companies.

What is ACT an abreviation for?

And thank you very much for tipping me about the thread!
Anyone interested in the high P discussion should read this 64 page thread, packed with links and useful information:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=191007&page=2
I've only read the first 2 pages for now, but I'm very inclined to read the rest, and I think anyone cultivating cannabis, and/or other C3 plants, should dig in to the issue..

Big-Narstie · Aug 1, 2015

hypy hypy hypy. Do not answer the phone to them.

Polishdankchron · Aug 1, 2015

Mr.Mist said:
What is ACT an abreviation for?

This stands for activated compost tea - for me the kiss method is not what your friend does with his dirt tap water grows but rather keeping it as simple with nature as possible. I'm stoned so that might sound weird but what I'm trying to say is there are a lot of things you can play around with, amending your soil and brewing up teas... but still in line with kiss. BTW i hate the acronym because during teacher training this hag kept on using it and I wanted to choke her...

Edit: or was it aerated compost tea? Same thing really...

Mr. Krinkle · Aug 1, 2015

those bastards!

Mr.Mist · Aug 1, 2015

Polishdankchron said:
This stands for activated compost tea - for me the kiss method is not what your friend does with his dirt tap water grows but rather keeping it as simple with nature as possible. I'm stoned so that might sound weird but what I'm trying to say is there are a lot of things you can play around with, amending your soil and brewing up teas... but still in line with kiss. BTW i hate the acronym because during teacher training this hag kept on using it and I wanted to choke her...

Edit: or was it aerated compost tea? Same thing really...

Thanks, for clearing that up!
However I agree that you can do a lot of things to optimize the grow while still keeping it simple.
My point was; if your goal is to simplify your grow as much as possible, you can always make is more simple..
If you're growing outdoors you don't even need to water your plants, just sow some feminized seeds and wait.. It works, I promise..
I think everybody should be as scientific as they want to be, so when people end their post by typing KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) it kinda pisses me off..
Since advancing is not stupid, it's a different approach to growing.

If what you like about growing is to learn about biochemistry and tweaking nutrient recipies, light recipies, atmosphere and so on, you don't get a whole lot out of 'keeping it simple'..
Simplicity is relative, so as long as you do more than just sow seeds, someone can always come and tell you to 'KISS'.
I understand most people think KISS means to not overcomplicate things to the point where you're ruining you own grow..
But if that's what you mean by KISS, you should(IMO) rather tell people Do Not Over Complicate(DNOC).
To me growing is a hobby, like people assembling and painting little model air planes. It costs money, it takes time, and the only yield is joy.
To me growing is just that! JOY! Not a way of getting cheap weed, and definitely not a way to earn money..

Of course, if you just want to save money by growing yourself, whithout putting tremendous amounts of effort into it, compost teas is definitely a good way to optimize your grow..
I taught my own mom to brew compost teas for her front yard, and she loves it!
I don't hate on simplicity, all I ask is not to be adresses 'stupid', based on the fact that I don't grow simply myself.

sourpuss · Aug 2, 2015

Man what a misunderstanding haha... sorry to have derailed the thread. Back to subject at hand.... high p... is it good or not... kiss is a very popular method here fyi...

Ill read what you got to say and prob try a few things....

How bout high p during first 2 weeks of flower?

High P is a scam!?!?

Member

Member

🌴 Hugging Trees 🌴

sourpuss

Active member

Member

Member

Member

Member

cant re Member

Member

Frequent Flyer

Member

Active member

Member

Member

Member

Active member

Member

sourpuss