RSC Nanda Devi and Kumaoni

Quick update: still only 1 verified female out of 13 plants total between the kumaoni and Nanda Devi. If timing of pre-flowering is any indication of how long it will take to finish, these won't likely finish until mid to late November at the earliest. Even my punto rojo is fully preflowering whereas the Kumaoni has literally shown 2 or 3 pistils at the nodes with nothing emerging from the growth point yet. A few years back, the punto rojo finished end of November, but it was picked early and should have been harvested maybe the second week of December.

One Kumaoni plant that looked female turned out to be a very late flowering male, damn! However, the one female plant smells phenomenal, it's one of the best, most vigorous seedlings so I guess it's hard to complain. At this point, it's down to 3 possible females total out of 13.

It makes me wonder if some strains have a higher ratio of males to females? With Lebanese, I had 8/9 female. With malana, I had 10/13 females. With Mazar I Sharif, 1 female out of 5 total.

Anyways, the one amazing kumaoni shot out an even bigger fan leaf! Sorry for the crappy photos, but these pics sorta give you a sense of just how gigantic this is:

meizzwang said:

Nanda Devi and Kumaoni have the most ridiculously gigantic leaves! As mentioned above, they are more like hemp plants: even 2 months old seedlings are near 2 meters tall already! Almost zero side branching except near the tip top of the plants, but these are grown in less than optimal lighting and they are also planted close together.

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hi

they are growing to single stems because of how close you have planted them

but yes, traditional Himalayan strains are multipurpose cultivars:

seed, fibre, resin

if you give these plants root space, as is usually done by farmers when growing for charas, they will branch in a Christmas tree shape or similar

It's early november and I ended up with 1 female nanda devi. When preflowering, I wrote this plant off as a male because it showed some balls, but turns out this one was a "controllable" hermaphordite. It only had a few male flowers at the node and now that it's about 2 weeks away from finishing, I haven't seen anymore nanners.

Aroma-wise, when the plant just started producing resin, there was a hint of Eucalyptus and spice, but now that the resin glands are close to maturity, it has a beautiful sweet, pungent smell that's very difficult to describe or compare. Mandala#1 F3 has a similar aroma, but not quite. If I can figure it out or get another opinion, I'll add an update.

So far, no signs of rot despite getting some decent rain on it. The buds are airy and are taking this cold, rainy weather very well. Yield looks okay too, although the buds, as expected for a pure sativa, are quite fluffy/airy. No doubt, this structure is one of the reasons these plants can tolerate harsh, cooler, wet conditions.

What you can't tell from the pic is that this plant is almost 3 meters tall! It was bent and trained to be a bit shorter:

@meizzwang

that's a really bulky looking Nanda Devi

it should handle rain really well

do you have any more photos of this plant?

thanks

p.s. I'm still mystified that you are finding such an issue with male flowers, as it's not something I see in the field, and I hear of it very seldom from growers too - but good to hear your experiences regardless

I'll try to snap some more photos soon, it's in a difficult location to photograph. No clue regarding the hermis, just that overall, I'm finding a much higher frequency of them in landraces compared to modern hybrids grown side by side. It could be that my natural change in photoperiod is different enough compared to their region of origin to stress out these plants? I've heard mixed results regarding hermis showing up with other growers: some don't have it, others do. It's also important to know the sample size being grown, as this can skew results.

The good news is, out of a fairly large sample size of many different landraces, so far, they're either controllable hermis or they show up so late in the flowering cycle that the inflorescence is at peak maturity before any pollen can be released.

Oh, did another "sniff test" on the nanda devi plant and aside from the sweetness, I get a definite petrol smell in the background! Doesn't sound great on paper, but it's actually a wonderful combo! Looks like the plant has approximately 2 more weeks to go, weather dependent. Will post more updates in the near future.

some more pics of Nanda Devi, this first pic gives you an overview of the overall structure:



The buds do look surprisingly big, but they're pretty leafy and once you manicure them, you can see they're actually a bit airy. Ain't she a beauty?




I did find a few spots of botrytis on this plant, so it was taken down. Fortunately, it was maybe 1-2 days away from being fully mature anyways. There were early hermi traits on this plant (very few male buds at the nodes, easily picked off), and a few days ago, I spotted some late hermi flowers. Had I picked this plant a week earlier, the late male flowers wouldn't have been seen, they were produced very late!


Trimmed bud shot:

Harvested the Kumaoni and few interesting observations:
1) one clone turned purple from cold stress! The buds were still green, but all leaves were purple!
2) Aroma from one plant to the next didn't differ too much, they all have a strong, spicy smell that pierces the nostrils. I can see how this can be interpreted as citrus, but personally, I don't get that at all. Definitely very unique and hard to describe.
3) Incredibly labor intensive to trim, but if you do the work, it can pay off because the buds themselves (on the most crystally individuals at least) are quite enjoyable to smoke!
4) Yield varied from one plant to the next. One plant had a big bud and no side branches, whereas another had a lot of side branches and a very small main cola! Despite having light, fluffy buds, the copious amount of side branches made the plant yield a decent amount. Definitely yields a huge amount of resinous leaves, and the hash yield is very high too!
5) Stems are surprisingly weak: I had a main cola almost completely snap off during a windy rain storm. This plant was growing in full sun and grown slowly/organically.
6) Had to pick mine a little early due to rot. All plants would have finished at peak maturity during late November.
7) Susceptible to Botrytis, but unlike modern hybrids, which under the same situation would "melt" into nothing within a few days, the botrytis spreads very slowly.
8) one plant had late hermi traits, others showed no signs.


SMOKE REPORT:

Okay, tried full melt hash and the buds several times now. Flavorwise, the buds are actually quite tasty, but this is only if you trim them for Jesus! They're very leafy, but once you get mostly bracts, it's highly crystally. Flavorwise, it tastes like high quality cannabis followed by a floral aftertaste! The floral aspect couldn't be detected in the smell of the buds, very intriguing! Great flavor!

Potency is mild and short lived, although one plant was a bit stronger than the rest. The hash is certainly a bit stronger, but not by much. The high is calm and all in the head as you would expect, but I didn't notice anything else going on. It seems a bit boring in my opinion. Surprisingly, I don't really care for this high, but to be fair, I have very high standards and over 20 varieties to choose from. However, the smoke is smooth and has an outstanding flavor! I still like to consume this variety "as an appetizer" because not all bud tastes great like this one.

interesting to read your observations on the kumaoni, sounds familliar from the 1 kumaoni plant I grew last year, and her offspring this year(outcrossed).

I couldn't identify that kumaoni-smell for long, untill one of my friends mentioned recognised 'lemongrass' in one of the offspring from this year, where that kumaoni-smell is present but less intense, and mixed with a sweet smell, with earthy background.

and now I've started thinking about citrus, I recognise it more and more. it's indeed not exactly citrus, but especially during trimming one of the offspring(one that most resembles the kumaoni in smell) I really recognised the citrus. to me it seems like slightly off-citrus, like a perfume/candy that was made to smell like citrus but just a little off, a little extra. and when it's less intense, either in some of the offspring where the smell is more mixed or when my nose is desensitized from trimming, the citrus comes out more from under the spicy/sharp part of the smell.

I found the bud from the kumaoni(last year's harvest, not this year's cross) a bit disappointing in joints, effect was not that strong as you mentioned. but I also found the taste lacking, although that's probably me. I easily find weedtaste overpowered by tobacco in joints, so it has to taste quite strong and sweet for me to notice it, otherwise I just taste tobacco. and that kumaoni-smell is a smell I find is easily overpowered by tobacco, eventhough it's quite present/sharp when you smell the buds.

but in the vaporizer it was much better, effect came out more too.

btw, you mention susceptibility to botrytis. my experience with that was different. never got any in that one kumaoni-plant used as parent(but I did forceflower it to finish on time). the offspring vary, but all are above average mold resistance. only I did have one plant with stemrot issues. which was kind of strange since I've never experienced it like this, only stemrot I had seen so far was where it started as budrot and then spread into the stem. but this plant got stemrot lower done on the branches where there wasn't any bud, and it just spread slowly as a circle on the stem, but didn't go into the buds.

only budrot in all those offspring was 1-2 small buds/foxtails per plant at most. and that while they finished too late(first harvested was 19th of october, rest was all in november).
one plant was exceptional. it was harvested about a week ago. densest bud structure of all her sisters, resembling some sisters of the father(pretty leafy though). based on bud structure, I would've expected her to have rotted away 2 months ago, but she finished without any budrot. and that at this time of year, those buds withstood weeks of nonstop drizzle-rain.

Those are some of the nicest pure nepal plants ive seen on here. Killer job.

@meizzwang

I'm wondering - how long since you harvested the bud?

I have only ever smoked this strain as handrubbed charas, and wouldn't usually smoke it until at least a month after the piece had been rubbed

boring and short-lived and definitely not words I would use to describe the effect

warm, uplifting, heady and long-lasting are how I'd describe it

I reckon it beats most Himachal charas for the quality of the effect, but I'd expect the plant to be less resinous by comparison - so are lot of the results you are getting are counterintuitive, though this may be because of the rain and cold conditions

one other thing - you never said what latitude you are working at

thejact55 said:

Those are some of the nicest pure nepal plants ive seen on here. Killer job.

Click to expand...

thank you for the kind words, means a lot to me coming from you!

ngakpa said:

@meizzwang

I'm wondering - how long since you harvested the bud?

I have only ever smoked this strain as handrubbed charas, and wouldn't usually smoke it until at least a month after the piece had been rubbed

boring and short-lived and definitely not words I would use to describe the effect

warm, uplifting, heady and long-lasting are how I'd describe it

I reckon it beats most Himachal charas for the quality of the effect, but I'd expect the plant to be less resinous by comparison - so are lot of the results you are getting are counterintuitive, though this may be because of the rain and cold conditions

one other thing - you never said what latitude you are working at

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I wouldn't discount the results or write them off as environmental, others have reported similar results. Nevertheless, I'll do a relatively high heat rosin press on the Kumaoni and report back-that'll ensure the resin is fully decarboxylated before consumption.

FWIW, punto rojo was extracted and smoked the day of harvest and had incredibly powerful, quality effects! Malana cream was also extracted and smoked the day of harvest, but had mild potency (as expected) yet the effects were A+. I have also experienced pure sativas that required months of curing the buds before they were fully "activated" but I haven't experienced that issue with fully decarboxylated extracts.

Also had some vivapary on Kumaoni! At first, I thought some worm was eating the seeds, but turns out, those are roots!

meizzwang said:

I wouldn't discount the results or write them off as environmental, others have reported similar results. Nevertheless, I'll do a relatively high heat rosin press on the Kumaoni and report back-that'll ensure the resin is fully decarboxylated before consumption.

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Hi

no discounting or writing off going on here - I've been taking all your reports at face-value

under the conditions you grew the plants under, an unusually high proportion had stress responses and popped male flowers, and the Kumaoni, in your assessment, came out as having a less exciting high than the Malana

that is what it is, I'm not disputing that

however, I've been chiming in because there is stuff that can be said about both results

environmental factors do play a big role in results - pointing that out isn't writing off your reports, any more than it would be with other plants like tea, or wine

so, as far as the effects go, this is worth noting:

the changes that cannabis undergoes during curing that affect the high are about alterations in the terpenoid profile, not decarboxylation

decarboxylation is just a process of removing an acid group from THCA -

you only need to heat THCA slightly above the boiling point of water to produce close to 100% decarboxylation (in so far as it's not 100% it's because of heat degrading some molecules)

so re. the report:

the conditions under which plants are grown, and how long harvested buds are cure, are both highly likely to affect terpenoid profiles, which in turn will affect the character of high

the fact that you perceived the Malana to have a more exciting high than the Kumaoni could be down to personal taste or the genotype of the particular plants

or it could, to a greater or lesser degree, be down to more objective factors such as the terpenoid profile of the plants

that's all worth pointing out here

as Himlayan Ganja has noted, every charas farmer will tell you that location is a major factor in determining the quality of the resin produced - in fact, in my experience most see it as being the main factor, a bigger factor even than the strain itself (wrongly, of course)

but, nevertheless, "terroir" is the main reason why charas production is done up in the mountains - because it strongly affects the oils the plants produce

again, this isn't about discounting your results, it's just about putting them in context - it's possible environmental factors played a role in this outcome

another factor: the plants seem to have taken plenty of rain - enough to cause some seeds to have popped on the plants (you can see this in Himalayan seeds, but it's not something I've noticed in seeds I collected from this village), and likely enough to have altered the resin profile (many terpenes are highly water soluble)

thejact55 said:

Those are some of the nicest pure nepal plants ive seen on here. Killer job.

Click to expand...

worth noting:

they're all Himalayan charas plants of course, but these are from Kumaon, which borders Nepal, but is in India

ngakpa said:

Hi

no discounting or writing off going on here - I've been taking all your reports at face-value

under the conditions you grew the plants under, an unusually high proportion had stress responses and popped male flowers, and the Kumaoni, in your assessment, came out as having a less exciting high than the Malana

that is what it is, I'm not disputing that

however, I've been chiming in because there is stuff that can be said about both results

environmental factors do play a big role in results - pointing that out isn't writing off your reports, any more than it would be with other plants like tea, or wine

so, as far as the effects go, this is worth noting:

the changes that cannabis undergoes during curing that affect the high are about alterations in the terpenoid profile, not decarboxylation

decarboxylation is just a process of removing an acid group from THCA -

you only need to heat THCA slightly above the boiling point of water to produce close to 100% decarboxylation (in so far as it's not 100% it's because of heat degrading some molecules)

so re. the report:

the conditions under which plants are grown, and how long harvested buds are cure, are both highly likely to affect terpenoid profiles, which in turn will affect the character of high

the fact that you perceived the Malana to have a more exciting high than the Kumaoni could be down to personal taste or the genotype of the particular plants

or it could, to a greater or lesser degree, be down to more objective factors such as the terpenoid profile of the plants

that's all worth pointing out here

as Himlayan Ganja has noted, every charas farmer will tell you that location is a major factor in determining the quality of the resin produced - in fact, in my experience most see it as being the main factor, a bigger factor even than the strain itself (wrongly, of course)

but, nevertheless, "terroir" is the main reason why charas production is done up in the mountains - because it strongly affects the oils the plants produce

again, this isn't about discounting your results, it's just about putting them in context - it's possible environmental factors played a role in this outcome

another factor: the plants seem to have taken plenty of rain - enough to cause some seeds to have popped on the plants (you can see this in Himalayan seeds, but it's not something I've noticed in seeds I collected from this village), and likely enough to have altered the resin profile (many terpenes are highly water soluble)

Click to expand...

I appreciate the in depth feedback! No doubt, environmental factors do affect quality, as seen in the wine industry.

Regarding the relatively high frequency in hermi traits in landraces, which we have discussed in other threads, it's yet to be seen whether this is mainly genetic or environmental. Others growing RSC landraces indoors (ie. Malana Cream) have also observed hermi expressions.

To recap, the RSC Lebanese (2016 seed batch) had the the most troubles, and all plants showing hermi traits finished before the weather became cold and rainy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my Lebanese plants pictured below don't physically appear stressed to me:


Results of Hermi traits seen in RSC landraces so far:
1)Malana: 1 in 7 hermied, all grown in the exact same soil and environment. Only late hermi traits, controllable.
2) Lebanese: 2 out of 4 hermied, all early hermi traits. Pollen was viable and difficult to control.
3) Kumaoni: 1 out of 3 hermied. late hermi traits, controllable
4) Nanda Devi: 1/1 female hermied, both early and late hermi traits. Mostly controllable.
5) Mazar I Sharif: 0 out of 1 hermied.
6) Manipuri: 0 out of 2 hermied so far, still not fully mature. Fingers crossed!


You have observed that the frequency of hermi traits expressed in their native region of origin is very low. Given that landraces come from various latitudes and each latitude has it's own unique photoperiod, if growing a landrace variety outside its latitude of origin causes stress due to differences in the change of photoperiod, this would explain the high frequency of hermaphrodism in my unworked landrace plants. I sure hope this isn't the case because it implies each unworked landrace variety requires a unique, specific photoperiod (or unique increase in dark hours) to ensure hermi traits don't appear overall.

Another interesting fact: zero out of 11 modern hybrids (including Ace's Panama) grown in the same exact garden showed hermi traits this year. Some of the varieties (including the landraces) produced the most flavorful, best quality buds I've ever grown (this was my first time ever growing 100% organic). However, I have seen many hermi traits in modern hybrids in past grows, just lucked out this year.

From my experience, I think exposure to rain in this case has very little to do with altering the quality of the terpenes, which is linked to the character of the high and probably alters the quality of flavor. For one, contrary to a previous report in this thread, the flavor of my Kumaoni plants are outstanding! Also, my original punto rojo plant grown many years back was exposed to much more cold, brutal rain (and even frost!) compared to plants grown this year, and it still turned out to have an outstanding, quality high, just like the punto rojo plant grown this year. Zero hermi traits observed.



Here's a pic of my original Punto rojo plant grown years ago after being beaten up by torrential rain and even frost!



Regarding the quality of effects of Kumaoni, your analysis has piqued my curiosity to see how others perceive the effects of Kumaoni. Indeed, such interpretations of the effects are quite subjective. Was it just this particular batch of plants? Will the flowers increase in quality after a longer cure? Is it just my own perspective? I'll have my friends to give a critique, they will not be given any of my opinions prior to sampling.

If you saved copies (clones) of these plants just cross the non-hermi plants to each other within the line

That way you can select away from thoughs traits for next season or test them indoors

Might seem obvious but just one generation away from adapting to your environment

These seeds are sort of a minor miracle to acquire in the first place

Thanks for the no-nonsense report

These are strait from the source...seems like you got some good plants!

keep the lines pure and they adapt ...only thing i can think of is root restriction but if they are in the ground? smart pot type bags help avoid root issues sometimes

Longer than normal cure might be in order for the final product...weird how potency comes around after 2 months and can be like hay or clorophyl for along time...africans can be like that ....need 3 months in a jar.... ethiopian is like that

If you can cross your good plants within the line and keep going....

~peace

ngakpa said:

Hi

no discounting or writing off going on here - I've been taking all your reports at face-value

under the conditions you grew the plants under, an unusually high proportion had stress responses and popped male flowers, and the Kumaoni, in your assessment, came out as having a less exciting high than the Malana

that is what it is, I'm not disputing that

however, I've been chiming in because there is stuff that can be said about both results

environmental factors do play a big role in results - pointing that out isn't writing off your reports, any more than it would be with other plants like tea, or wine

so, as far as the effects go, this is worth noting:

the changes that cannabis undergoes during curing that affect the high are about alterations in the terpenoid profile, not decarboxylation

decarboxylation is just a process of removing an acid group from THCA -

you only need to heat THCA slightly above the boiling point of water to produce close to 100% decarboxylation (in so far as it's not 100% it's because of heat degrading some molecules)

so re. the report:

the conditions under which plants are grown, and how long harvested buds are cure, are both highly likely to affect terpenoid profiles, which in turn will affect the character of high

the fact that you perceived the Malana to have a more exciting high than the Kumaoni could be down to personal taste or the genotype of the particular plants

or it could, to a greater or lesser degree, be down to more objective factors such as the terpenoid profile of the plants

that's all worth pointing out here

as Himlayan Ganja has noted, every charas farmer will tell you that location is a major factor in determining the quality of the resin produced - in fact, in my experience most see it as being the main factor, a bigger factor even than the strain itself (wrongly, of course)

but, nevertheless, "terroir" is the main reason why charas production is done up in the mountains - because it strongly affects the oils the plants produce

again, this isn't about discounting your results, it's just about putting them in context - it's possible environmental factors played a role in this outcome

another factor: the plants seem to have taken plenty of rain - enough to cause some seeds to have popped on the plants (you can see this in Himalayan seeds, but it's not something I've noticed in seeds I collected from this village), and likely enough to have altered the resin profile (many terpenes are highly water soluble)

Click to expand...

I hope the market will mature enough to create a connoisseur market parallel to the legal market.

as far as curing goes, I've found that the clearer the effects the better it gets with a long cure, I've smoked some of the nepalese hashplant after a year and the effect really wasn't enjoyable.. but a really clear sativa keeps the enjoyable quality to it's high. I think you posted something about the manipuri buds being fermented or maybe it was from another line.. but that sort of treatment is common with 'sativa' buds.

as far as the intersex response, the plant I've been growing shows no signs of stress outdoors. Indoors it will stress out when switching to 12/12. when I selected the plants for outdoor I gradually lowered the light hours to make sure it would start flowering at the appropriate time and it showed not signs of stress

herbgreen said:

If you saved copies (clones) of these plants just cross the non-hermi plants to each other within the line

That way you can select away from thoughs traits for next season or test them indoors

Click to expand...

Ngakpa: From your experience, if these hermi traits are in fact environmentally induced, do you think the above genetic selective pressure strategy will work? I'm a bit confused because if it does work, that would imply the traits are genetic rather than environmentally induced, right?

Sam_Skunkman says it pretty good here talking about the spectrum of plant tendencies....

"Genetics can make the plant be inter-sex every time.
Some varieties require an environmental stress to express inter-sex. This is genetic based also.
Inter-sex plants are of many different types, from all branches with male and female flowers, to a few male flowers on female plants that only show up on the tips of the buds and often don't open or release pollen.
And everything in-between.
Plants also have a male and female flowering habit, with male being tall and thinner flowers, while females have squatter denser flowers. Males can have the female growth/flowering habit, females the growth/flowering habit.
There are up to seven types of flowering profiles, ranging from pure male to pure female with everything in between, which are used as guidelines in selecting desirable plants. The most desirable types are mostly female in appearance, especially the flowering tops, and only develop a few male flower clusters which rapidly release their pollen and fall off.
This is used to in maintaining Monoecious varieties, an elaborate system of categorizing cannabis plant types, in order to select only those with the most stable proportion of male and female flowers.
Enough for now."
-SamS

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=282090

Thanks for that Herbgreen! To make my question a bit easier to understand, I'll use an example: Say you have 10 plants of one variety growing indoors. From that batch of plants, 3 of them show hermi traits only when there's light leaks, but the rest don't. When there's no light leaks, zero plants show hermi traits.

1) You breed with all plants except the 3 that showed hermis during a light leak, and you'll keep doing this generation after generation. Will selecting against those 3 individuals that show hermi traits with light leaks decrease environmentally induced hermi traits in the next generations? If so, does that suggest the hermi traits are genetic, or is there something else going on?

I've heard both sides of the argument: some growers like the hammerhead genetics dude suggests all hermi traits, regardless of how they're induced, are genetically linked and can be eliminated via genetic selection. The other side of the coin is that it doesn't matter, if you have the right environmental stress for a particular genotype (and for the sake of keeping the conversation simplified, will will exclude chemically induced hermaphrodism and only talk about environmentally induced hermi traits), any strain can and will have a percentage of individuals that will hermi.