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Coco noob, completely failed, need help.

insidemusic

New member
Hello all,

I've grown in soil pretty successfully for over 10yrs now, but today I come to you with my tail between my legs. With the help of ICmag i've read and read and read thousands of topics, and the past couple years I've been reading a lot about coco coir. I read the entire coco trees thread twice, and have spent countless hours reading about growing in coco.
So I felt pretty confident giving it a try. After almost two weeks now and half my coco plants dead, and the rest on their way, I need to understand my failure, which I don't have a clue how i could have f'ed up that bad, and it makes me feel pretty stupid because I feel I have a good understanding of the science of growing cannabis.

So, here's what I did:
I germinated 14 seeds of two different strains, 3 "BC Kush" and 11 Copperchem from greenpoint seeds. And put them in rapid rooters. As soon as they sprouted i put them in 3" by 3" pots.

I was only able to find Black Gold's Just Coir, and mixed that 50/50 with perlite. I washed this mix with tapwater until clear, then made a nutrient solution at 250ppm, Sensi Coco A&B, RO water, and let it soak for about an hour. After that I planted the rapid rooters in them.
This is them at 3 days old. The copperchem stretched like crazy.

These are in a room at 80f 60% humidity. Light breeze blowing on the seedlings.
A 180W LED light is hanging 12" above seedling tops.

I let them sit a couple days, the mix never dried out. The first leaves started to droop though, so I watered with a 250ppm solution with RO water.
I was also noticing the rapid rooters were extremely wet, like soggy. And I am betting the RR's were holding to much water. After a couple days I had 3 die on me from damping off.
I think rapid rooters are great for cloning, but seedling don't develop a root mass quickly enough to escape the water logged plug. Usually i plant seeds in soil, and clone using rapid rooters at a 99% success rate.
This is two days later. They are 5 days old here.


Then everything just went south:moon:, they wouldn't stand up, I noticed the leaves getting really light green, stems not strengthening, I upped the nute solution to 300ppm then 350ppm. I flushed them and tested runoff at around 350ppm. I had two more copperchem just wilt up and die.
Here is them at 11 days old. 3 BC Kush on the far left, and remaining 6 copperchem.


I dont understand how i have such varied results. One BC Kush is fine, one is super twisted, the other one in the back that looks ok in this photo I checked on today and is pretty much dead like it dampened off. And the remaining copper chems all look like shit.
The best guess i have is that the soaked rapid rooters have caused issues with the stems.
Did I water them too much? I don't see how with 50% perlite.
Is 300 ppm too much/too little for a 7 day old seedling?
Is 50/50 coco perlite not good for seedlings?
Does 50/50 get watered daily? 2x a day? Less?
If the coco medium just doesn't dry out at first, isn't it good to water anyway every couple days to introduce fresh oxygen and nutes?

I am at a loss, this is my worst grow ever, even my very first grow when I was 19 didn't start like this. I mean how hard is it to start some f'ing seedlings!!
Im not giving up on coco, but before i scrap this and try again I would sure love some ideas on how I messed this up so bad.
:thank you:
 

progro

Member
Hello all,

I've grown in soil pretty successfully for over 10yrs now, but today I come to you with my tail between my legs. With the help of ICmag i've read and read and read thousands of topics, and the past couple years I've been reading a lot about coco coir. I read the entire coco trees thread twice, and have spent countless hours reading about growing in coco.
So I felt pretty confident giving it a try. After almost two weeks now and half my coco plants dead, and the rest on their way, I need to understand my failure, which I don't have a clue how i could have f'ed up that bad, and it makes me feel pretty stupid because I feel I have a good understanding of the science of growing cannabis.

So, here's what I did:
I germinated 14 seeds of two different strains, 3 "BC Kush" and 11 Copperchem from greenpoint seeds. And put them in rapid rooters. As soon as they sprouted i put them in 3" by 3" pots.

I was only able to find Black Gold's Just Coir, and mixed that 50/50 with perlite. I washed this mix with tapwater until clear, then made a nutrient solution at 250ppm, Sensi Coco A&B, RO water, and let it soak for about an hour. After that I planted the rapid rooters in them.
This is them at 3 days old. The copperchem stretched like crazy.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=76924&pictureid=1846974&thumb=1]View Image[/url]
These are in a room at 80f 60% humidity. Light breeze blowing on the seedlings.
A 180W LED light is hanging 12" above seedling tops.

I let them sit a couple days, the mix never dried out. The first leaves started to droop though, so I watered with a 250ppm solution with RO water.
I was also noticing the rapid rooters were extremely wet, like soggy. And I am betting the RR's were holding to much water. After a couple days I had 3 die on me from damping off.
I think rapid rooters are great for cloning, but seedling don't develop a root mass quickly enough to escape the water logged plug. Usually i plant seeds in soil, and clone using rapid rooters at a 99% success rate.
This is two days later. They are 5 days old here.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=76924&pictureid=1846975&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Then everything just went south:moon:, they wouldn't stand up, I noticed the leaves getting really light green, stems not strengthening, I upped the nute solution to 300ppm then 350ppm. I flushed them and tested runoff at around 350ppm. I had two more copperchem just wilt up and die.
Here is them at 11 days old. 3 BC Kush on the far left, and remaining 6 copperchem.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=76924&pictureid=1846976&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

I dont understand how i have such varied results. One BC Kush is fine, one is super twisted, the other one in the back that looks ok in this photo I checked on today and is pretty much dead like it dampened off. And the remaining copper chems all look like shit.
The best guess i have is that the soaked rapid rooters have caused issues with the stems.
Did I water them too much? I don't see how with 50% perlite.
Is 300 ppm too much/too little for a 7 day old seedling?
Is 50/50 coco perlite not good for seedlings?
Does 50/50 get watered daily? 2x a day? Less?
If the coco medium just doesn't dry out at first, isn't it good to water anyway every couple days to introduce fresh oxygen and nutes?

I am at a loss, this is my worst grow ever, even my very first grow when I was 19 didn't start like this. I mean how hard is it to start some f'ing seedlings!!
Im not giving up on coco, but before i scrap this and try again I would sure love some ideas on how I messed this up so bad.
:thank you:
That coco coir isn’t any good. That’s not washed or buffered. Gotta use a good quality coir. EC .6-.8 to feed and let them almost dry before feeding again. Overwatering and poor quality coir. Live and learn. Don’t give up. Best of luck mate
 

dansbuds

Retired from the workforce Bullshit
ICMag Donor
Veteran
not once did you mention what PH you were feeding them , & i especially ask because you mentioned rinsing the coco & perilite before dropping the cubes in it .
([FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I was only able to find Black Gold's Just Coir, and mixed that 50/50 with perlite. I washed this mix with tapwater until clear, then made a nutrient solution at 250ppm, Sensi Coco A&B, RO water, and let it soak for about an hour. After that I planted the rapid rooters in them.
This is them at 3 days old. The copperchem stretched like crazy.)

You do realize how important PH is to coco & the nutrients your feeding it right ? 5.8 being the sweet spot & a swing of 5.7 to 6.2 is just as important too . so that ALL the nutrients can be taken in by the plants .

your coco should have been buffered to a EC of .8 EC & a PH of 5.8 before you put any plants in it .
if the coco had any type of buffer in it from the bag , you washed it all away with that rinse . precharge the coco .... not prerinse it !
[/FONT]
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Heavy perlite mixes will look moist but can be harmfully dry.

You can plant seeds directly into washed/buffered coir that has been watered with 1.0-1.2EC solution. They adapt to surroundings.

Best to avoid watering daily until you have roots out the bottom of the pot and they feel light on day 2 or 3 from watering.
 

insidemusic

New member
Thanks guys for the reply's.
I had a feeling the "just coir" coco wasn't the best, it seems a little thick, not much fiber in it too much pith. I will try to source better coco.
Dansbuds- Sorry the Ph was 5.8 for the soak and the waterings. So I'm confused, isn't soaking it in a nute solution "pre charging" it? I thought with coco you were supposed to rinse it and then soak it in a solution. So you think these problems were because I rinsed the coco before using?
 

progro

Member
Thanks guys for the reply's.
I had a feeling the "just coir" coco wasn't the best, it seems a little thick, not much fiber in it too much pith. I will try to source better coco.
Dansbuds- Sorry the Ph was 5.8 for the soak and the waterings. So I'm confused, isn't soaking it in a nute solution "pre charging" it? I thought with coco you were supposed to rinse it and then soak it in a solution. So you think these problems were because I rinsed the coco before using?
No you did everything right. Rinse and then low ec nutrient. Quality of the coir, overwatering and humidity was the problem. That caused the damping off etc. would’ve been a lot of Na in that coco
 

zeke99

Active member
The temp is 80F, a fan is blowing, the light is 12" away and the plants are in 50/50 coco perlite mix that NEVER dried out?

Are your containers sitting on top of a pool of water?

Something isn't right about that.

In those small containers, with that mix and those environmental parameters, you should be able to add a little bit of water almost every day.

And as far as the crazy stretch, there are two factors at play: either the light is too far away OR if you're turning the light off, the temperature difference from day (80F) to night (??) is way too large.

And DansBuds, why are you telling a person with a few day old seedlings to swing the pH? They don't need to swing the pH. The plants are an inch tall with one leaf set. You are recommending a massive over complication that's only going to give the grower ph anxiety. It's RO water. As long as the PH is pretty close to the sweet spot, it's all good.
 

Wingnutt

Member
I would argue that your RO water is not holding it's pH properly yet. RO water can be tricky and you often need to adjust Cal & Mag levels to account for water being empty. I personally like to use max 80% RO water. The 20%, preferably filtered, tap/city/well water will help the pH from making drastic swings as the nutrients sit in the medium.

I used RO water for over a year, got tired of the waste and wait and went to just a Small Boy filter with the best filters and my plants were just as happy and I hardly have to adjust the pH with the AN base nutes. Sometimes we make things more complicated than needed, just my experience - unless you have terrible water. FYI i was on city water with choramine and around 180ppm, 7.0ph to start. The Small Boy carbon filter works great and is worth the uncharge.
 

insidemusic

New member
I really appreciate everyones ideas.
I think I know what happened now.
Progro was right, the Black Gold brand coir bag,"Just Coir", is not good. Maybe I didn't charge it right or something but I transplanted the remaining ones into bagged Canna coir, one quart pots, and right away i could see roots out of the bottoms then and then growth started. They are still alive and doing much better! I will flower them in a couple days.
At the same time I also started more seeds in straight Canna coco and have been having success, I did not have one dampen off. They are pretty big now.
There was something up with the Black Gold stuff, it really didn't dry out even with 50% perlite. When I switched to 100% Canna I noticed it dried out very fast.
Another thing I did based on Mikells recommendation was feed a higher EC, I realized that I was measuring ppm with my pen set to a .7 conversion so feeding a 7 day old 300ppm in RO water was pretty bad.
So ultimately, having seedlings in the rapid rooters that were in the "just coir" that the roots hated, that wouldn't dry out, led to a lot of damping off because the rapid rooter could never dry out. And probably combined with low feed ec it was time for disaster.

So transplanted and I upped to .8 ec for a week then 1ec now im at 1.3.
Once they started to grow well, I realized how fast little containers can dry out, and they had a few dry spells, probably caused some spikes in salt concentrations.
Then the fungus gnats showed up, and fast. I live in a tropical area. Quickly devouring the roots. Azamax seemed to do a great job.
But they have been exploding the past week, watering twice a day, probably needing 3 now.
So I will flower the older ones in a couple days so at some point i'll probably need some ideas.
But I thank everyone who helped me here. I'll try to get some pics.

On a side note, I'm also growing some Malawi genetics outdoors in soil, at 21deg N latitude. They have been exploding lately, passing 8ft. They still have a long time to go, could be December. I'll have to get some pics and share in that section.
Organic soil is my jive, but I'm liking the coco experiment i have going, and i appreciate all the help here.
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I water Gnatrol in to new transplants. It's cheap on eBay.

Glad to hear things are on the upswing.
 

Aheadatime

New member
Interesting. I wonder what about the Black Gold was so bad. I've used canna bricks forever, and never experienced anything like the OP.
 

Absolem

Active member
your coco should have been buffered to a EC of .8 EC & a PH of 5.8 before you put any plants in it .
if the coco had any type of buffer in it from the bag , you washed it all away with that rinse . precharge the coco .... not prerinse it !
[/SIZE][/FONT]


Bingo.

Dansbuds knows the coco game. Read all his posts you can.


I've made so many mistakes growing in coco. But when you get it right it rocks.

Best of luck.

Cheers
 
X

xavier7995

That sucks man, had something like that happen a year or so back, couldnt keep spouts alive for uhhhh..the life of me. My medium wouldnt dry properly and stuff kept damping off, lost a bunch of good seeds. It may actually have been that black magic crap, i tried a few of their products as i liked buying from home depot, but it wasnt very good and i dumped it.
 

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
I am at a loss, this is my worst grow ever, even my very first grow when I was 19 didn't start like this. I mean how hard is it to start some f'ing seedlings!!
Im not giving up on coco, but before i scrap this and try again I would sure love some ideas on how I messed this up so bad.
:thank you:
Growing in coco coir should be very easy.

1. Start with good quality coir

Stuff you can use right out of the bag without flushing and buffering agents is Canna Coco. It is best to soak it in 6.0 pH and 0.4 EC nutrient solution of coco specific nutrients (like Canna A+B, which I've used and still use on some plants). Add some epsom salt for magnesium (and sulfur). I use R/O filtered water to uncomplicate things.

2. Don't mix the coir with perlite

There is no need for it. Coco coir decompacts after watering from just drying. Also, don't be afraid of letting the coir go dry, which you can tell by the color. Just don't let the plants wilt very long if they do. This really helps with root development, which is one thing that makes coco coir great.

3. Do use perlite as a drainage layer

For small pots, you should use perlite as a drainage layer, high enough to cover the drainage holes, or the medium will.

4. Plant right into the coir

No need for plugs or anything else. You can also clone into coir very easily. Just scrape off the bark, dip in rooting powder or jell, water the coir, make sure your mini greenhouse or growroom isn't too humid. And walk away for a week. It is that easy.

5. Feed them with bloom food first.

Seedlings need to develop a big root system first, and a strong stem so they can support the foliage. That means they need P for the roots and K for the stems, more than N for growth. They don't grow a lot while they develop at the seedling stage. Most growth happens form late seedling to late vegging.

If you focus on growing a good root system first, your grow will become very problem free, because the plant will have the resilience and the fast metabolism that allows them to shrug off damage and insects and fungi. It also allows you to use much lower nutrient concentrations, which is: cheaper; shocks the plant less and is less likely to burn the roots; means you might not even have to flush; there is no chemical taste buildup in the final product.
 
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