Ibechillin's Dank Chronicle

Thanks thailer, plants can also be force flowered outdoors in spring when days are getting longer. Starting them flowering indoors for a few weeks and moving them out to finish is a great method. Sativas are more sensitive to light hours and reveg much quicker than indicas. If I had an indoor grow space I would be transitioning clone plants out in groups regularly to force flower alongside my vegging full season plants, Cheesecake would be perfect for this.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=8269003#post8269003

I posted ^ this thread awhile ago about force flowering. I included a bunch of links to threads that Silverback posted with information about force flowering at the bottom.

This Cheesecake strain is full of surprises so far haha. This is the first time ive seen a main stem abruptly seperate into mirror image tops and both continue on like the original top. Looks very natural where it separates and has me wondering about polyploidy in the seeds perhaps, I mentioned earlier that I culled a triple cotyledon/trifoliate cheesecake seedling also.

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Damn man you got some FREAKS! You're making me work for it, looking through old threads to find out what the hell is going on with your plants.

You're thinking of whorled phyllotaxy, that's the right name for what we've always called trifoliates. I'd just been thinking about this because I had a triple cotyledon seedling as well but the true seeds are normal. Pretty sure the mirror image tops are a type of whorled phyllotaxy as well. It's a mutation that pops up now and then, it's also possible something happened to the tip to cause it to split, something chewing on it or a watering accident or whatever.

It's definitely not polyploidy, extra set(s) of chromosones (cannabis has two) which causes plants to be very large and vigorous. I don't think cannabis becomes polyploid naturally, it has to be treated with chemicals, usually a poison called colchicine. Here's a link to a study, they use something called oryzalin.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2019.00476/full

I'd expect our ambitious young gene splicers nobody likes to make full use of techniques like this to 'improve' cannabis in the future. When you google 'polyploidy' there's lots of threads started by people who mistake either whorled phyllotaxy or something called fasciation for polyploidy, probably why you're guessing your seeds may be polyploid. It's all confusing and misleading, took me a bit to get on the right track. Here's the wiki article on fasciation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciation

And a thread called poyploidy by a guy who thought his plants were it. They're not, later Sam comes in and explains.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=63891

Sam has mentioned a couple times in threads about whorled phyllotaxy that his tended to be more frequently male. I've found the same thing, I don't think I've ever had a female. They do exist so they should not be instantly culled because they do grow a bit faster with their lucky 3 sets.

there's a guy at 47N that last year flowered his plants indoors and then at week five, set them outside to finish in the first week of august IIRC. He used to post here and at GC and his name is Pakalolo of the great NW. well even though the light hours are super long, the plant had been in bloom for so long, that it just kept chugging along and finished just like normal. he has been growing these same cuts for years too so i think he would be able to judge how well they did.

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I was thinking about light dep-ing my Black Viet x Thai plants, starting in late July to do the same thing. Stop doing it by the mid of August after they start flowering. I like his idea because it doesn't mean the work of carrying plants around every 12 hours. I mis-spoke, really the rains don't start until the end of September. meaning I like my strains early.

Its the hours of dark the plant senses which triggers flowering. With a rainy climate, plants probably flower early since they are looking for sunshine!

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Doesn't work that way most of the time, though it can have a small effect. Maybe a couple days. The best way cloudy weather helps is by triggering plants to show pre-flowers. After a few cloudy days quite often you'll be able to sex a plant. The rain is fine on plants that are in Veg or all white hairs, it's when they're finishing the rain gets destructive.

I was talking yesterday with my mom's boyfriend about how everything that has ever lived evolved to the earth's natural cycles/variances. Ive always been intrigued by the method of waiting for certain moon cycles to plant but have not tried it.

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Check out parietal eyes if you don't know about them. In humans it's evolved into our pineal gland. It's the 3rd eye, tuataras have 'em.

I don't give much credence to moon cycles, I doubt it's strong enough to have an effect, although I like it when my activities synch up. It might make people better growers in another way, especially outdoors. Paying closer attention to their plants, the natural world and it's cycles. We get self absorbed and oblivious to that sort of stuff much of the time.

I had a male that had that auto splitting top a couple years ago. Two generations later 1 of 10 inbred progeny had a triple cotyledon. Is there a connection between the two displays of nonconformist plant morphology? If there is maybe we can narrow down the original source of the mutation because I had two triple cotyledons this spring and the two of them both share a couple ancestors about 6 generations back in their pedigree.

therevverend said:

Damn man you got some FREAKS! You're making me work for it, looking through old threads to find out what the hell is going on with your plants.

You're thinking of whorled phyllotaxy, that's the right name for what we've always called trifoliates. I'd just been thinking about this because I had a triple cotyledon seedling as well but the true seeds are normal. Pretty sure the mirror image tops are a type of whorled phyllotaxy as well. It's a mutation that pops up now and then, it's also possible something happened to the tip to cause it to split, something chewing on it or a watering accident or whatever.

It's definitely not polyploidy, extra set(s) of chromosones (cannabis has two) which causes plants to be very large and vigorous. I don't think cannabis becomes polyploid naturally, it has to be treated with chemicals, usually a poison called colchicine. Here's a link to a study, they use something called oryzalin.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2019.00476/full

I'd expect our ambitious young gene splicers nobody likes to make full use of techniques like this to 'improve' cannabis in the future. When you google 'polyploidy' there's lots of threads started by people who mistake either whorled phyllotaxy or something called fasciation for polyploidy, probably why you're guessing your seeds may be polyploid. It's all confusing and misleading, took me a bit to get on the right track. Here's the wiki article on fasciation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciation

And a thread called poyploidy by a guy who thought his plants were it. They're not, later Sam comes in and explains.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=63891

Sam has mentioned a couple times in threads about whorled phyllotaxy that his tended to be more frequently male. I've found the same thing, I don't think I've ever had a female. They do exist so they should not be instantly culled because they do grow a bit faster with their lucky 3 sets.

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The cheesecake strain does originate from Mad Scientist Genetics, perfect fit for me lol.

Ive seen and encountered trifoliate/whorled phyllotaxy plants from seed before, females too and understand fasciation pretty well. They normally start 2 cotyledon leaves and the number of branches/leaves at each node alternates randomly up the plant from node 1. The triple cotyledon seedling I had from the first batch of Cheesecake seeds was triple leaf/branch from node 1 and successive nodes were not alternating number of branches/leaves, 3 then 3 then 3.

I dont think the split into 2 main stems is fasciation as the growth usually takes on unique characteristics and this instance looks like perfect mirrored growth. The plants are in pristine health without any damage either so im very highly doubting cause by outside influence. A "Sport" in botany is a branch or growing tip that mutates differently from the main plant randomly. Nectarines were a mutant branch from a peach tree that has been cloned and crossbred for example. One branch on a plant can become polyploid, as is the case with mentions of 1 clone growing as polyploid out of a bunch cut from the same mother plant. The polyploid mutation can happen randomly at fertilization/germination and cell division at growing tips as well.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...oidy_From_Evolution_to_New_Plant_DevelopmentC

"Polyploidy can naturally arise in a number of different ways. In some cases a so-matic (nonreproductive) mutation can occur, due to a disruption in mitosis, resulting in chromosome doubling in a meristematic cell(s) that will give rise to a polyploid shoot. These sports are sometimes evident on a plant by their enlarged "gigas" con-dition. Polyploids can also result from the union of unreduced gametes — eggs and sperm that have not undergone normal meiosis and still have a 2n constitution. The origin of a polyploid can often determine if it will be fertile and may further indicate how it can best be used in a plant improvement program. If a tetraploid arises from spontaneous doubling in a shoot or from the union of unreduced gam-etes from two closely related (e.g., same species) diploid individuals, it will have four similar (homologous) versions of each chromosome. Despite different origins, both of these polyploids behave similarly reproductively and are often referred to as autotetraploids (or polysomic tetraploids). Autopolyploids may or may not be fertile. In diploids, meiosis involves the pairing of homologous chromosomes, which even-tually segregate to form two separate gametes, each with one set of chromosomes. Infertility can arise in autopolyploids due to the fact that there are more than two homologous chromosomes."

Polyploid = more than 2 sets of chromosomes
Haploid = 1 set of unpaired chromosomes
Diploid = 2 sets of chromosomes
Triploid = 3 sets of chromosomes
Tetraploid = 4 sets of chromosomes
autopolyploidy = same species/self fertilization offspring random polyploid mutation
colchicine = causes new growth above treated area to grow as tetraploid

therevverend said:

I was thinking about light dep-ing my Black Viet x Thai plants, starting in late July to do the same thing. Stop doing it by the mid of August after they start flowering. I like his idea because it doesn't mean the work of carrying plants around every 12 hours. I mis-spoke, really the rains don't start until the end of September. meaning I like my strains early.

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This USA DLI map is a great resource to plan force flower with, 40-45 mol per day is considered ideal according to NASA crop studies. If you could start light dep on them earlier so they finish mid september latest the buds will probably be nicer from the more intense sunlight that sativas need, thats an awesome cross.

therevverend said:

Check out parietal eyes if you don't know about them. In humans it's evolved into our pineal gland. It's the 3rd eye, tuataras have 'em.

I don't give much credence to moon cycles, I doubt it's strong enough to have an effect, although I like it when my activities synch up. It might make people better growers in another way, especially outdoors. Paying closer attention to their plants, the natural world and it's cycles. We get self absorbed and oblivious to that sort of stuff much of the time.

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I wasnt aware there are creatures that had a literal 3rd eye that operates similarly to our pineal gland, interesting. Considering I started growing indoors hydroponically I didnt think the moon cycles could be that important honestly lol, I pay alot of attention and analyze the surroundings heavily still though.

5 weeks from planted seed the 1st "Northern Lights" autoflower showed sex today:

The polyploid condition is much more common on other types of plants, it's played a huge role in agriculture. Wheat is a big one, most of the current wheat grown is polyploid. I'm guessing this is what companies like Phylos are excited about, they could copyright and license their polyploid creations, plants with 50% or more resin. Covering the entire plant not just the flowers. This is what they have a hard on about, not copyrighting current strains. If they can develop these type of strains it could make all the current cannabis obsolete, eliminate a lot of the competition. It's a frightening thought.

This USA DLI map is a great resource to plan force flower with, 40-45 mol per day is considered ideal according to NASA crop studies. If you could start light dep on them earlier so they finish mid september latest the buds will probably be nicer from the more intense sunlight that sativas need, thats an awesome cross.

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This is why light dep has gotten so big the last few years. When I visited my friend's legal rec grow last summer I couldn't believe it. He'd pop a newly rooted clone in the ground, let it root for one week, then force it to flower. Because it was June it would grow and flower like crazy finishing in 6 or 7 weeks. The sun in that part of the state is ridiculous, 90 F degrees or more every day. When I visited him it was the hottest day so far, over 100 and I was sweating like a pig and felt sick, dizzy, and out of it.

therevverend said:

The polyploid condition is much more common on other types of plants, it's played a huge role in agriculture. Wheat is a big one, most of the current wheat grown is polyploid. I'm guessing this is what companies like Phylos are excited about, they could copyright and license their polyploid creations, plants with 50% or more resin. Covering the entire plant not just the flowers. This is what they have a hard on about, not copyrighting current strains. If they can develop these type of strains it could make all the current cannabis obsolete, eliminate a lot of the competition. It's a frightening thought.

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How could polyploid be any less probable on cannabis compared to any other living thing? Its a natural/random thing that takes place during meiosis or mitosis which is occuring constantly. Gigas enlargement condition is only one of the possible alterations caused from the mutation, it can manifest itself in negative ways as well. The reason polyploid plants are abundant in commercial agriculture is from isolating and selectively breeding for them.

Few years ago from 6 bagseeds of the strain Bruce Banner #3 Im positive I encountered a polyploid Gigas plant. Growing in the same environment, medium and feed it grew at least 5 times the size of its 5 siblings with side branches that met even with the main growing tip. Produced buds from the branch tips all the way to the stalk ~24 inches in length, compared to the others being 16 inch tall single cola dwarfs.

I enjoyed this article about hybrids and polyploids:

https://www2.palomar.edu/users/warmstrong/hybrids1.htm

Here is another good article on somatic bud sports in agriculture:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41438-018-0062-x

The Phylos thing doesnt concern me much. Sam explained awhile ago he tried breeding sterile plants with polyploids but they still made seeds. All my genetics are bagseeds from recreational grows so im just waiting patiently to get some seedy Phylos super weed now lol. I dont doubt there are breeders experimenting in the recreational grows with inducing polyploidy as well, many are coming from the commercial agriculture sector and applying the methodologies to cannabis (like myself).

Sam_Skunkman said:

DP was the first to sell all fem seeds made with STS, Hybe was one of the first selling STS for $100 a liter, but we were the first to use STS, we used it shortly after reading about it in Ram's paper, I and Rob Clarke read Rams paper in 1983 and made and used it a few years later.
At the time I was hoping to combine all female seeds with all sterile plants that could not set any seeds.
We were also amongst the first to turn males to females with ethephon (2-chloroethanephosphonic acid). So the male that was female transformed could be tested for Cannabinoid and terpene contents, it worked great.
With all female sterile seeds, then anyone could grow sinsemilla, no need to sex plants, and even if your neighbor had a zillion flowering males you would get no seeds in your sterile all female crop. Perfect for Morocco hash farmers that never see sinsemilla grown in the Rif, just to many male plants.
Anyway, all female is easy, making your all female seeds also sterile I never succeeded with although I tried for 3 years using a method that watermelon seed producers use to make seedless watermelon's. It almost worked but still made white nubbies and a few to a lot of black seeds no matter how I tried or what genetics I used.
-SamS

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therevverend said:

This is why light dep has gotten so big the last few years. When I visited my friend's legal rec grow last summer I couldn't believe it. He'd pop a newly rooted clone in the ground, let it root for one week, then force it to flower. Because it was June it would grow and flower like crazy finishing in 6 or 7 weeks. The sun in that part of the state is ridiculous, 90 F degrees or more every day. When I visited him it was the hottest day so far, over 100 and I was sweating like a pig and felt sick, dizzy, and out of it.

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My first year growing I ran a 15x12 room recirculating hydro with two 4x12 tables under three 1000W HPS on light movers that traveled the full length of the tables, I did 4" rooted cuts in 6" rockwool blocks straight to flower sea of green. It was common for them to finish flowering in 8 weeks as 4+ ft tall plants with colas as big around and long as my leg, I sold many oz from that room that were just one nug .

May 22nd:

Mixed up a batch of feed water:
1 tbsp per gallon water Alaska Fish Fertilizer 5-1-1
1 tsp per gallon Blu Moon Mega Roots

Gave each photoperiod plant 1 gallon feed water.
Gave each autoflower plant 1/4 gallon feed water.

May 24th (today):

Cheesecake #1 10 weeks 20 inches tall:




Cheesecake #2 8 weeks 16 inches tall:




Cheesecake #3 8 weeks 16 inches tall:

Lifted OG 8 weeks 12 inches tall (still hasnt shown sex):




Gummo 8 weeks 12 inches tall (still hasnt shown sex):
Loving the big Indica leaves on this one and Lifted OG.

Found a great site about plant breeding I wanted to share, this link is to a section on polyploidy:
(copy and paste link address then remove the https://)

https://plantbreeding.coe.uga.edu/index.php?title=5._Polyploidy

This is a great slideshow also with more information:

https://www.slideshare.net/pawannagar8/polyploidy-breeding

Interesting thing I learned is that polyploidy can be also be caused in offspring by multiple males pollinating the same female simultaneously (Polyspermy). Slide #10 explains why Sam_Skunkman couldnt create completely sterile plants through triploids like watermelons. Also learned new growth from callus tissue can cause polyploid shoots due to the rapid cell division that takes place, which also helps explain random polyploid clones appearing from the same mother plant (and more reason to start looking into tissue culture...).

The nug I posted pictures of on May 11th that smelled like orange tootsie pop sucker turned out to be the strain Agent Orange by TGA Subcool, which is Orange Velvet (Skunk #1/Orange Bud pheno) x Jacks Cleaner. Germinating the seed now and planning to breed it with Gummo since both of them have a Skunk #1/Orange bud parent, super stoked! Going into a 30 gallon fabric pot with soil recycled from the 3 gallon autoflowers I pull runts and males from.

I absolutely love orange tasting and smelling plants, lemon and blueberry as well.

May 31st:

Watered all the plants yesterday with plain water, 30 gallon pots got 3 gallons each and autos around a gallon each, culled a male "Northern Lights" autoflower and 2 dwarfs/runts. Mostly overcast skies this season so far since getting started and plants have been growing slowly compared to last 2 seasons outdoors, but are the healthiest yet lol. The low light and humid air probably helped them get good and rooted into their fabric pots though. Weather forecasts are showing clear skies in the 70s from noon to evening this week, looking forward to how plants respond.

The healthiest of the 3 Agent Orange seeds sprouted today, I split the seed shells on the other 2 that hadnt sprouted yet and planted them in a 3 inch square pot out with the other plants.



Cheesecake #1 11 weeks




Cheesecake #1 early/reveg flower resin and closeup

Cheesecake #2 9 weeks




Cheesecake #3 9 weeks




Lifted OG 9 weeks

Gummo 9 weeks

"Northern Lights" Autoflowers mid week 6

June 2nd:

Foliar sprayed 1 gallon over all the plants thismorning, 1 gallon foliar ingredients and elemental ppm:

0.15625 grams epsom salt 9.8% Mg 12.9% S
0.125 grams jacks 10-30-20
1 tsp Blu Moon Mega Roots

Foliar Total ppm:

N 3.306878307ppm
P 4.3253968256ppm
K 5.4894179896ppm
Mg 3.2407407409ppm
S 4.265873016

Then watered with plain water, gave photoperiod plants 1.5 gallon each and autoflowers 1 gallon each.

The healthiest of the 3 Agent Orange seeds sprouted today (I think it liked the foliar):



Saw a Brown marmorated stink bug today on an autoflower:

Hows the potency on the auto-flowers?

Looking great! Both the plants and the stinkbug.

I edited my previous post to share the elemental ppm of the 1 gallon foliar soloution I used, I made a mistake on the math and it was much weaker than I planned to use lol.

Thanks for all the rep everyone, glad your enjoying the updates/pictures so far. :friends:

mikeandnaomi said:

Hows the potency on the auto-flowers?

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Im not sure yet. The "Northern Lights" were gifted to me from TychoMonolyth to test, and my first time growing autoflower seeds. Name is between quotations because when Tycho grew them last season they were very sativa looking, hes pretty sure they were a packaging mixup. In general though autoflowers have come a long way and Im confident there are some very potent ones out there now.

JustSumTomatoes said:

Looking great! Both the plants and the stinkbug.

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Thanks JST. My experience with soil/organics/outdoor is still relatively low (1 full season outdoors 2017 only) and so far this season has gone smooth. Where my plants are at I see a nice variety of insects/wildlife and try to get pictures to share. Just remembered I forgot to upload one from like a week ago. Wild (literally and figuratively) momma duck introducing them to the marijuanas young lol.

"This is the dank children":

I think that photo is worthy of a caption contest.
"If you smoke that shit than you'll turn out like your father"