- Users Thread - Hydrosol/Jacks Pro Hydro (and other copies) & Calcium Nitrate

dizzlekush · Sep 21, 2012

Greeco said:
Oh I almost forgot to mention I have a sealed room and am using C02 so I added the NH4 into the mix. Only costs .60 per 10 gallons if you order salts from customhydronutrients.com and JRpeters.

Per Gallon
Jacks (5-12-26)-2g
AgSil14H- 1.2g
Magnesium Sulfate- .9g
Ammonium Sulfate-.52g
Iron DPTA 10%- .02g

Makes:
1.6mS/cm
N03-128.242ppm
NH4-29.126ppm
P-26.668ppm
K-198.237ppm
Ca-145.237ppm
Mg-56.834ppm
S-64.267ppm
Fe-2.1ppm
B-.264ppm
Cu-.079ppm
Mo-.053ppm
Mn-.264ppm
Si-78.401ppm

Hey buddy. COCO!?!?

you got no faith. you're on your own when it comes to figuring out the right K:Ca ratio. I can never get the same growth in coco as i can in peat.

Im guessing you left CalciNit out of your weight/gallon section. About your ppms:

I think your NO3:NH4 ratio is a bit off. i know you're copying Spurr's profile which was meant for creating a pH stable solution from RO water. Spurr's 4:1 ratio is for pH stability, he even admits that a 10:1 - 20:1 ratio is more optimal for cannabis growth. The max ppm of NH4 you will ever need is ~15ppm for optimal cannabis growth, even in CO2 rich environments.

All of your micro's except for Fe are too low. Drop the FeDPTA and keep adding Jacks til your Mn and B are over/at 0.4ppm. you'll prolly need to lower potassium silicate to not keep K too high. don't worry about that. Si as low as 25ppm is shown to be beneficial in studies.

I just remembered you said this was for vegetative growth. I dont believe in higher K than N in vegetative growth, at max k should be equal. This means dropping the Magnesium sulfate and using Magnesium nitrate instead for veg. No need for so much S in veg. Usually plants need Mg, S, and P in similar amounts. Cannabis seems to follow that rule, at least in vegetative growth.

dizzlekush · Sep 21, 2012

Graphs & Charts of Nutritional Requirements of Cannabis sativa L.

Graphs & Charts of Nutritional Requirements of Cannabis sativa L.

Thank you Spurr, Tester, Fatman etc. from the "Hemp (Cannabis sativa L) tissue nutrient analysis data" forum. Note than some minerals are expressed in the oxidated form in the last 2 charts, making their ppm seem higher than actuality.

Observations:

In vegetative growth plants require slightly more N than K. In bloom these roles reverse but they maintain the role of 1st & 2nd most required nutrients.

Throughout all phases of growth Ca is the 3rd most required nutrient, but its required levels slowly drop throughout the entire bloom phase (more so than N or any other element it seems)

P is the fourth most required nutrient and it's requirements increase as bloom continues, but even as Ca demand decreases and P demand increases, P demand is unlikely to rise to levels greater than Ca demand.

Mg and S demands remain relatively equal to each other, and seem to have relatively similar levels of requirement throughout veg and bloom. Mg, S, and P demands are very similar in vegetative growth.

Si content is fairly low, similiar to Fe content, which would essentially make Si a micronutrient.

Levels of Mn and Zinc are very high, more than half of that of Fe. Cannabis is an Mn accumulator, so it cannot be said for sure whether the Fe:Mn ratio should be desired.

dizzlekush · Sep 21, 2012

Notes on formulating a working solution from dry fertilizers.

Notes on formulating a working solution from dry fertilizers.

Always add Potassium silicate first, then add your chosen acid (i suggest phosphoric, to help buffer pH) to bring pH below 7 to prevent monosilicic acid from turning into Si ions and bonding to nutrients and precipitating out of solution (giving a cloudy appearance), which happens at higher pH.

Next add all Calcium containing salts to solution.

Then add the rest of your salts, and then balance your pH.

The only 2 salts i suggest adding to a small amount of water and shaking/mixing vigorously until completely dissolved and then adding to working solution are Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate, although not together. both salts take much longer to dissolute into solution if left alone than other salts. Calcinit can often take over an hour.

If only using Citric acid, set your pH to the lowest you are comfortable with, as pH will slowly rise over time. I set my pH to 5.3 to increase P, S, Fe, Mn, and Zn uptake, knowing that the pH will rise to 6.0+ to make the other nutrients more available later. I try to work with the alkalinity of my water rather than against it.

weeddaddy50 · Sep 21, 2012

thanks for the

thanks for the

Great information.....I mix my own as well....and in flower I completly agree with 5.3 ph as a starting point....as that ph will continue to rise.....

one thing I will ad....is mixing for about 30 minutes prior to watering is really beneficial....way more accurate...once confirmed with the hanna meter with probe......Lol...and once you get strange readings with one meter....you will want a back up.....just in case.....I have 2 hanna's in my res....one main...one back up....and recalulate every 5 days.

thanks....great read.

dizzlekush said:
Always add Potassium silicate first, then add your chosen acid (i suggest citric, to help chelate ions) to bring pH below 7 to prevent monosilicic acid from turning into Si ions and bonding to nutrients and precipitate out of solution (gives a cloudy appearance), which happens at higher pH.

Next add all Calcium containing salts to solution.

Then add the rest of your salts, and then balance your pH.

The only 2 salts i suggest adding to a small amount of water and shaking/mixing vigorously until completely dissolved and then adding to working solution are Calcium Nitrate and Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate, although not together. both salts take much longer to dissolute into solution if left alone than other salts. Calcinit can often take over an hour.

If only using Citric acid, set your pH to the lowest you are comfortable with, as pH will slowly rise over time. I set my pH to 5.3 to increase P, S, Fe, Mn, and Zn uptake, knowing that the pH will rise to 6.0+ to make the other nutrients more available later. I try to work with the alkalinity of my water rather than against it.

Greeco · Sep 21, 2012

dizzlekush said:
Hey buddy. COCO!?!? you got no faith.

Im guessing you left CalciNit out of your weight/gallon section. About your ppms:

Ah yes, I forgot to add the CalcNit on the forum. I guess I have some major tweaking to do then. I will take all the info into account and look at the studies again. The only reason I switched back to coco was due to a fail grow last time. I have never failed before or even had unhealthy plants. I'm pretty sure I messed up and used to much Ca since I was so used to feeding in coco. Fortunately I was able to fix things by lowering the Ca and transplanting the plants into bigger pots. I think the flowering issues were due to some environmental factors. I should be getting my CHHC-4 controller back today, which was broke my entire last grow, and make sure co2 levels are good. Now that I have sealed my room this is really important because I am noticing that transpiration has slowed down a lot. For the record for coco vs peat, I noticed way healthier growth in the peat and feeds,water, medium prep, and most importantly cost was better then coco. I will be switching back again after I get things dialed in.

Greeco · Sep 24, 2012

Dizzle buddy, I have a quick question, for flowering now, when I get my Mn and B up to .4ppm my Mg is really high. I can't add any magnesium sulfate at all because I don't want my Mg being more then half of my Ca. If I bump up my Ca it starts getting pretty close to my K. Which in some studies I see that this is fine during veg. But in flower I see K:Ca ratios fluctuate a bit. Looks like a 1:2 ratio is about right. Then for my Mg:Ca ratio I see this one being all over the place from a 1:2 to a 1:5. So in coco I just want to keep it half but its hard when I want to add some sulfur into the mix. My Ca:Mg ratio becomes hard to manage. It looks like sulfur is really important during the stretch period of flowering but then lessons after this. I would like my Sppm to be at least 25-30ppm. Any suggestions? Was anything spurr posted about his feeding correct for cannabis? Or was that for alkaline purposes only? If it is right I will keep my total N around 160 through veg and flower.

dizzlekush · Sep 24, 2012

How high does your Mg get? micros dont have to be that high i guess. just make sure they're over .3ppm and Fe is over 2ppm (without adding DPTA Fe)

Honestly i cant really help you when it comes to the K:Ca:Mg ratios and coco. Try talking to G.Low about it, he knows how to fertigate coco well. goes b 'cchem' here i think. you'll never have to have more than a 3:1 Ca:Mg ratio (e.g. 45ppm Mg, 135ppm Ca) at the max, 2:1 is usually where i end up around.

Spurr is pretty much dead on with his nutrient formulations, the only things i really change are:
i change the N:K ratio in veg to N being dominant
i make my NO3:NH4 ratio between 6:1 - 9:1 since i have fairly good pH control
i gradually taper down N and Ca in the 2nd half of bloom
and i increase the Zn compared to his formulations

Spurr explains most of his reasons for his formulations. Its pretty much all summarized in these quotes of his:

One of my main goals to was to start growers off on the 'same playing field' of RO water. However, RO water is a poor choice to grow plant because it lacks needed mineralization namely alkalinity. My methodology allows for proper re-mineralization of RO water to make the RO water MUCH more ideal for plant growth vs plain RO water.

The great thing about RO water is removal of crap from tap water or well water, such as PCBs, birth control, drugs, floride, chloramine, chlorine, lots of minerals that most growers don't account for, etc., etc. That said, making RO water is not good enough, we need to then condition the RO water for plant growth. That, in a nut shell, is what my methodology accomplishes.

pH swings will be much reduced with my methodology and formulations thanks to pH buffers not found in RO water that growers use. The reasons are varied, from use of potassium carbonate, to citric acid, to a NO3:NH4 ratio of 4, to use of nearly 3 mM/L (aka mmol/L) P during full-flowering which may increase THC content.

In vegetative and "early-flowering" stages I am using 30 ppm P. In "full-flowering" stage I am using 87 ppm P. I increased the P from 30 ppm (sufficient range, albeit a bit high) to 87 ppm after pre-flowering stretch and after initial flower-set, ie., what I term "early-flowering" stage. Once plants are past initial flower-set, the stage I term "full-flowering" stage, I increase P because doing so may increase THC.

I have read one good study, and a second okay study, on effects from various application rates of N, P, K, etc., on THC. In one good study, the researchers found increased P (and reduced K) was strongly correlated to increased THC. The authors hypothesized increased P may affect enzyme pathway thereby increasing THC-A, IIRC. However, they did not quantify glandular trichome density (trichs per mm^2), they only carried out quantification assay on extract. I personally feel increased P may increase trichome density, due to the reports by other cannabis growers; if so, the THC quantity would also increase.

In the future I plan to carry out very well designed and controlled studies to see if increasing P does increase THC-A and trichome density. For now I am covering my bases by increasing P.

The biggest reason to keep P at sufficient level of ~20-40 ppm is to reduce internodal elongation, and to increase root growth (i.e., reduce the "root:shoot ratio"). By the time full-flowering stage arrives the roots are pretty much done growing (elongating), as are shoots.

I plan to test 20 ppm P with use of AM (arbuscular mycorrhizae) fungi. I have written very much on this topic, and I'm the one who blew apart the myth about high efficacy of AM fungi in cannabis growth with P greater than ~30 ppm. If we plan to use AM fungi we need to keep P below 25 ppm, ideally below 20 ppm.

As we know, ion ratios are about antagonisms and potentiations, so they are quite important. As are the sources of elements, which is why I will not use MAP (mono-ammonium phosaphte) if I can help it, and will instead use DAP (di-ammonium phosphate). DAP is higher purity and has less contamination than MAP, there are industry standards for DAP and not so for MAP. That is why I choose DAP and not MAP.

I choose the ratio of 4, for NO3:NO4, because of the buffering effect on pH (from lower ratio) and impact on plant usage of increased CO2 from ammonium (NH4). I kept the ratio of 4 for all stages of growth. Ideally, a ratio of 3 is better in terms of pH and CO2 (re ppm of NH4). However, plants in warm conditions and bright light, esp. flowering and fruiting plants where the "photosyntate" stays close to the source tissue (i.e., leafs and flowers) the plant is less able to move carbohydrates (sugar) to roots to convert NH4 into amino acids. In such a case a ratio above 3 is ideal to prevent phytotoxicity and poor growth.

In terms of effect from NO3:NH4 ratio on pH in rhizosphere and soilless solution, or reservoir (for water culture), we must consider root exudates. As roots 'take in' the anion nitrate (NO3), they release (exude, re exudate) bicarbonates, etc., which increases pH (as well as alkalinity), however, when roots 'take in' the cations ammonicial nitrogen (ammonia (NH3) and ammonium (NH4), they release H+ protons which reduce pH and alkalinity. Thus, by reducing the NO3:NH4 ratio (when all ammonicical N is NH4) close to 1, we in effect reduce pH swings by better balancing acidic and basic exudates from roots.

However, one must consider the process of "nitrification", whereby NH4 is converted into nitrite (NO2) and NO2 is then converted into NO3 (nitrate). This process happens quite fast and has high efficacy when there are copious microbes able to carryout the conversion, such as "nitrifying bacteria" species, which are highly ubiquitous. That means unless we use something like chlorine dioxide at 0.25-0.5 ppm or hydrogen peroxide, much NH4 will be converted into NO3, thereby increasing the NO3:NH4 ratio.

There is also the topic of antagonisms and potentiations of NO3, by NH4. That is, at first (couple of house) NH4 potentiates uptake of NO3, however, after some times (hours/days) NH4 antagonizes uptake of NO3. I used a NO3:NH4 ratio which should reduce the effects of NH4 on NO3, vs ideal ratio of 3 (in terms of pH).

I choose a K:Mg ratio of 3 because the ppm of K has a stronger effect (antagonization) of Mg than Ca. I kept the ratio of 3 for K:Mg in all stages of growth. I would have kept a ratio of 1.5 for K:Ca, however, that would have increased NO3 too far and messed up my NO3:NH4 ratio.

I try to use at least a ratio of 2.5 for K:Ca, and high ppm Ca because plants 'take up' Ca slower than almost every other element, and Ca-P precipitation can/will form in rhizosphere (AFAIK) thus reducing available Ca.

I boosted K to 230 ppm in early-flowering (and boosted Mg to keep the ratio of 3), which may or may not help yield. Many growers believe boosting K can increase yield, myself included. I reduced K back to ~200 ppm for full-flowering just in case increased K can reduce THC. Using the fertilizer compounds I choose, I can boost K but not increase P at all

I choose a Ca:Mg ratio of equal to or less than 2 because that ratio has worked very well for me and many other growers.

I choose high S (sulfate) because it's my "degree of freedom" element in HydroBuddy, thereby allowing me to create a more accurate formulation. Also, sulfate is commonly used up to ~120 ppm in academic and commercial hydroponics. My goal was to keep S below 110 ppm. Also, because S affects smell I increased S to help increase terpene action to increase smell (I'm not positive of the chemical steps or the science). I decreased S during full-flowering to affect the P:S ratio, to reduce possible antagonism of P by S.

dizzlekush · Sep 24, 2012

RE NO3:NH4

RE NO3:NH4

Again, from Spurr:

Ammonium is the 'main' ammonicial nitrogen source, and it's used immediately by plants. A good ratio for NO3:NH4 in fertigation water is at between 10-20; I am using 13 now. When co-applied NH4 will potentate uptake of NO3 by roots, but after some time, NH4 will hinder NO3 uptake.

Plant cannot self-regulate uptake of ammonicial N, but they can nitrate N, to a degree (re some amino acids in phloem). Thus if the plant cannot move enough sugar to the roots, fast enough, the NH4 will not be converted soon enough, and can burn roots and cause other expressions of phytotoxicity.

In a garden with high Co2 it's a good idea to 'hedge bets' and use a low NO3:NH4 ratio. I have never used below 10, but I plan to try 8. In most Ag lit. below 4 is considered too low and can/will hinder the plant. The reason being there is mounting scientific evidence that plant given only NO3, or a vast majority of NO3, are only benefited by Co2 for a short time (days/weeks), re increased growth rate, etc. However, with plants given only NH4, or a majority NH4, the plants were continually benefited by Co2 over time.

Also, the process of nitrification is pretty quick in many cases, re conversion of NH4 into NO3, by microbes in media and water.

Avenger · Sep 24, 2012

As are the sources of elements, which is why I will not use MAP (mono-ammonium phosaphte) if I can help it, and will instead use DAP (di-ammonium phosphate). DAP is higher purity and has less contamination than MAP, there are industry standards for DAP and not so for MAP. That is why I choose DAP and not MAP.

I'd like to see some thing to back this up. I did a quick search on the washington heavy metals in fertilizers data base and found the opposite to be true.

maybe i'll check out the alibaba listings to see what they show.

anyway, if you have a dialog going with spurr ask him about it will you?

dizzlekush · Sep 24, 2012

Will ask spurr when i speak to him next.

Greeco · Sep 25, 2012

okay thanks a lot dizzle for always being there to answer important questions for me. I'm throwing some peat potted plants in the flowering room again next week to do further analysis since I know my last grow was a fluke.

Greeco · Sep 25, 2012

oh one more thing, is it safe to order ammonium nitrate? I don't need any kind of license or anything do I? I don't want the feds thinking I'm making bombs or anything.

lol okay this was a stupid question. I need to use something else.

wellwaterblack · Oct 4, 2012

Can these be used in aeroponics without clogging the sprayers?

YosemiteSam · Oct 4, 2012

For what it is worth I use a Ca:K:Mg ratio of 3:2:1 in both coco and peat with salts and am exploring adding additional Ca (trying to reach base cation saturation of 65% Ca) with CaCO3 in peat and CaSO4 in coco.

I never go above 100 ppm K and am currently using 86 ppm K. I just harvested a 2 lb per light grow of OG with this method.

All about the Albrecht ratios for me anymore...especially 12% H cation saturation

My SO4 is higher than my P by quite a bit as I try to keep Mg and P close to the same. I use no silicate in the res but spray a couple of times with it over the life of the plant.

svenghalli · Oct 7, 2012

How bout jacks and rock wool. Any suggestions for the grams per gallon of Jacks, CalNit, Mgsul, and Si02?

habeeb · Oct 15, 2012

dizzle... not sure I can add much at this time..

but give yourself a pat on the back... great information, and will sift more through it as time goes on..

thank you

--------------------------------------------------------------------

for the coco discussion going on, mainly concerning Ca levels.. I can show you these plants grown with 47 PPM Ca... so I am not sure I can agree on 'overloading' coco with Ca at this time.. but I am a noobie with coco, and a noobie with everything, but I do believe we are not at a point settled with with coco formulation. I have heard though H&G uses high level of Ca in there coco formula ???

would love to hear more on N-P-K numbers and coco though, as I have not made up my mind on the whole low K thing, being as I have seen numerous grows using a hydro based solutions with very good results...

so I myself am confused regarding coco.. but I've seen far better overall potential then I've ever seen with peat...

( please keep in mind these are first time running a made up formula / coco / strains / and a couple are DJ strains... they don't get big... )

johnnyrotten · Oct 17, 2012

I'm currently using AN Ph Perfect Sensi Grow, Bloom, Voodoo Juice, B-52, Big Bud, Overdrive and Final Phase... Probably cost me close to $300 on my current grow, which had 9 plants vegging for 6 weeks in 3 Gallon Smart Pots and Hempy Buckets using coco or 70/30 coco/perlite... The plants are doing great with me hand watering them...I use tap water with a PH of 7.8, PH Perfect doesn't work with it and I still use PH down to get it from 6.4 to 5.8...

I'm almost out if Grow, so I figure if I already have to check ph, why not find a less expensive, more complete nute line... Which has brought me to looking at Lucas Formula using Maxibloom or possibly Jacks Professional...

My problem is that I would like to use one formula from start to finish with the possible addition of a bloom booster late in flowering... I also can not comprehend how to compute what I will need to use Jacks, from what I've read I will need Jacks Professional Hydro and Cal-Nit... How do I figure out the strength to feed of Jacks, do they have any other products that I can add to get to my goal of one nute solution for an entire grow?

ipa · Oct 18, 2012

dizzlekush said:
This is a thread for users of and those curious about the products Jacks Professional Hydro 5-12-26, Peters Hydrosol 5-11-26 and all other products that are:
Product A: Potassium Nitrate, (some variety of) Potassium Phosphate, Magnesium Sulfate and a micro-nutrient package
Product B: Calcium Nitrate, which is actually almost always the hydrated double salt Calcium Ammonium Nitrate Decahydrate [5Ca(NO3)2.NH4NO3.10H2O]

These products have been gaining popularity quickly due to the unbeatable low price, ease of use, flexibility and quality results.

I use a product called VitaGrow which is exactly what you describe. I'm looking at the label on the box of Part A and the first two ingredients are potassium nitrate and magnesium sulphate, then all the other trace minerals. Part B is just calcium nitrate. Then there is Part C which you add during bloom which is just monopotassium phosphate.

They're just repackaging basic ingredients into managable sizes. It's dirt cheap. I've done the math and could save even more but I can't store 50 pound bags of fertilizer. You can get a 50 pound bag of monopottasium phoshate for $200 and half that for calcium nitrate.

That's all you need. The basic nutrients. Beyond that it's all environment and genetics. Amino Acids, carbohydrates, Vitamins, etc... all just marketing hype. It's a plant not a mammal. It doesn't need all that crap.

VitaGrow, Jacks, even Miracle Grow. Don't over do it, give the best environment and plants will thrive.

ipa · Oct 18, 2012

Forgot to add that potassium phosphate was third on the list of ingredients for VitaGrow Part A SuperMicro.

dizzlekush · Oct 18, 2012

ipa said:
They're just repackaging basic ingredients into managable sizes. It's dirt cheap. I've done the math and could save even more but I can't store 50 pound bags of fertilizer. You can get a 50 pound bag of monopottasium phoshate for $200 and half that for calcium nitrate.

That's all you need. The basic nutrients. Beyond that it's all environment and genetics. Amino Acids, carbohydrates, Vitamins, etc... all just marketing hype. It's a plant not a mammal. It doesn't need all that crap.

You can buy any of the salts you desire at much smaller amounts (1-20lb range) online at the stores i linked in the first post and on ebay, amazon, etc. a 25lb bag of fertilizer doesn't take up much more space than a gallon jug of nutrients. prices are still dirt cheap, $1-5/lb depending on the salt, the quantity you buy and where you buy it from.

The thing about Amino Acids, carbs, and vitamins being all hype is a half truth. The real truth is there's plenty of studies showing all these additives being beneficial for growth when these things are applied to the FOLIAGE, there's much less studies showing benefits of these 'supplements' when applied to the RHIZOSPHERE, but studies do exist where significant increases in growth are found r.e. rhizosphere applications. do you need these to grow big, happy, quality plants? NO. can they potentially increase growth parameters? YES.

- Users Thread - Hydrosol/Jacks Pro Hydro (and other copies) & Calcium Nitrate

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