Reversing/selfing an elite male to create regular seeds

Natural high · Nov 16, 2017

It is theoretically possible to reverse a male plant using ethephon or similar in order to make female pistils. Has anyone done this or seen an instance where it has been done?

If you then cross the reversed male with itself it will, in theory, make seeds in which are 50% true male XY, 25% true female XX, and 25% YY. If the YY embryos fail to develop then the ratio will be two thirds male, one third female.

The S1 seeds could then be grown out and a choice female identified, which could then be backcrossed with the father or crossed with a sibling male to make regular seeds.

I am interested to know if this has ever been done? I believe it would be a fantastic way to make a seed line from an elite male clone.

.

bestothebest · Nov 16, 2017

I think this can be done, but the trick is to have a known great male. Otherwise it is just a shot in the dark.

Natural high · Nov 17, 2017

Yeah an old school NL or Haze male would be ideal. I think I will try it to satisfy myself that it will work. I am particularly interested to know the ratio of males v females in the offspring. 75% male germination would indicate that the YY males can successfully develop beyond the gamete/embryo stage.

Yard dog · Nov 17, 2017

Chimera I think had male lines. might of been in the SamS thread on transforming males. (don't know if he did any reg breeding with them)

Guy Brush · Nov 17, 2017

Is this YY thingy approved? Never thought it would be possible. My own question is: Has anybody ever made several back crosses to a male plant, only to see what female expressions occur?

MJPassion · Nov 17, 2017

I remember that there is at least one breeder (can't remember who) that was doing some bx's to a male. I'm thinking it may have been the Rev from KOS Seeds but can't be sure. It was while I was perusing the forum he handles that I first heard about it. (Recurrent male parent)

Natural high · Nov 17, 2017

Guy Brush said:
Is this YY thingy approved? Never thought it would be possible.

I doubt YY is viable but I'm keen to find out.

Guy Brush said:
My own question is: Has anybody ever made several back crosses to a male plant, only to see what female expressions occur?

After an initial male selfing, there will be regular male and female seed so back crosses or S2's are possible via a simple pollination.

Natural high · Nov 17, 2017

Yard dog said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Nevil
Breeder
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,125

Just a few thoughts on feminised seed.

I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.[/FONT]

Yard dog said:
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Nevil
Breeder
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,125

Hi Brock 1
Ethylene (fruiting hormone) is what I used to turn Haze C male into a female. I remember plucking calyxes of the plant to smoke it for the first time. An enlightening experience.[/FONT]

Yard dog said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Nevil
Breeder
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,125

If I remember correctly, The NL5Hz was my most expensive line. I don't recall putting out pure haze. If anyone got any off me, it would have been HzBC. This was not as good as the Hz hybrids.
N. [/FONT]

Great info and it shows that it has done successfully.

djimb · Nov 19, 2017

I do believe Sam talked about having made seeds from a reversed male in his thread, though I can't point to a specific post. I tried this myself with a few males that grew from seed brought back from Colombia. Only three of 12 germinated, none were female, and I really wanted to preserve the line. Unfortunately, I either started the treatment too late, or my ethephon was old (I bought it at a local nursery and it looked like it had been on the shelf for years). I was keeping them in small pots and they only developed a few pistils before they died from being too rootbound.

If you attempt it, I'd love to follow along. I don't think anyone ever germinated seed from a selfed male on the other thread, and I'd be really curious to find out if YY embryos would even develop into seeds. It could also be a great tool for judging males for selection.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597

Natural high · Nov 22, 2017

djimb said:
I do believe Sam talked about having made seeds from a reversed male in his thread, though I can't point to a specific post. I tried this myself with a few males that grew from seed brought back from Colombia. Only three of 12 germinated, none were female, and I really wanted to preserve the line.

If you attempt it, I'd love to follow along. I don't think anyone ever germinated seed from a selfed male on the other thread, and I'd be really curious to find out if YY embryos would even develop into seeds. It could also be a great tool for judging males for selection.

Thanks for the link to the other thread. Somehow I missed that but there is some good information on the actual technique of reversal. When I attempt it myself i will definitely post the progress and results here.

This technique would be very useful if you had a small number of regular seeds of a desirable strain and they all turned out to be males. Just reverse the males, cross them with themselves and/or each other, and harvest the seeds which will be either 25% or 33% female, depending on the viability of the YY.

dank.frank · Nov 22, 2017

My only real question, is how do you know it is an elite male without breeding with it first? The only way to TRULY know how good a male is, is to test multiple progeny for comparative. Sure, there are standouts in a group, that doesn't make them "elite", it just makes them the best of what you have in front of you.

"Elite" is decided by thousands of people collectively coming to the same conclusion about a clones particular values. Do you plan on passing this male out to thousands of people? Good luck. I've held truly standout special males for YEARS. I offered them up to as many people as were interested. That amounted to about 4 or 5 people.

I think this thread is an exercise in futility.

dank.Frank

Natural high · Nov 22, 2017

dank.frank said:
My only real question, is how do you know it is an elite male without breeding with it first? The only way to TRULY know how good a male is, is to test multiple progeny for comparative. Sure, there are standouts in a group, that doesn't make them "elite", it just makes them the best of what you have in front of you.

"Elite" is decided by thousands of people collectively coming to the same conclusion about a clones particular values. Do you plan on passing this male out to thousands of people? Good luck. I've held truly standout special males for YEARS. I offered them up to as many people as were interested. That amounted to about 4 or 5 people.

dank.Frank

The only reason I mentioned the word "elite" is that it would be a way to make a pure seed line from the existing elite males that are already out there and tightly held by breeders. I'm not suggesting it could be used to create an elite male. I am just interested in the technique as a tool which has not yet been exploited to any significant degree.

For instance, you could use it on your truly standout special males that you have to create a seed line without having to cross it with another plant or strain.

Cheers.

ahortator · Nov 22, 2017

Hi. A few years ago I was able to reverse a male of Mango Zamal from Mandala Seeds.

I did it with ripening bananas and a transparent plastic bag. I must say I have tried it later and it failed. Once the male showed calixes but no pistils appeared so it was impossible to make seeds.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=277729&page=2

I gave S1 seeds from that Mango Zamal male and I know a friend got a beautiful female.

I think it is interesting if you have some valuable seeds, like an extinct landrace or so, and you only get males. You can recover the strain. Perhaps it is not the best way but sometimes it is the only tool you have.

So don't throw the towel and keep those wonderful males alive.

Greetings

bestothebest · Nov 24, 2017

I started a thread on this in the MNS Forum, and a member pulled this Nevil Quote out of the depths of that forum
Originally Posted by Nevil

Yep, done that. I selfed the HazeC male. Theoretically their should be 25% YY. I was looking for them.
I got about 33% females and 66% males, no intersex. I progeny tested maybe 20 males, All produced normal male to female ratio's and no intersex. The seeds had normal viability, so I guessed that YY would block seed growing in the first place.
None of the HzC male selfed, came close to being as good as HzC for breeding.
N.
Now the important part is that the YY appears to block seed development. This HazeC is what we would call an elite male, and although he said the selved children were not as good, he only tested twenty, and once said the same thing about the children of the NL5 HazeC.

mushroombrew · Nov 24, 2017

Do YY super males exist in cannabis? I know in other plants they do.

oldbootz · Nov 24, 2017

13-arnold-schwarzenegger-approved-nutrition-tips-facebook-960x540.jpg

mushroombrew · Nov 24, 2017

dank.frank said:
My only real question, is how do you know it is an elite male without breeding with it first? The only way to TRULY know how good a male is, is to test multiple progeny for comparative. Sure, there are standouts in a group, that doesn't make them "elite", it just makes them the best of what you have in front of you.

"Elite" is decided by thousands of people collectively coming to the same conclusion about a clones particular values. Do you plan on passing this male out to thousands of people? Good luck. I've held truly standout special males for YEARS. I offered them up to as many people as were interested. That amounted to about 4 or 5 people.

I think this thread is an exercise in futility.

dank.Frank

I trip out how few growers keep males. I have a male stable.

The term "elite" is just a CA circulated cut term. Elite clones are often anomalies. Many are Bagseed.

And are certainly not true breeding.

So an "elite male" is a BS term. "True Breeding" male is more like it.

I prefer XY crosses when ever possible. I would just use a great male for regs and BX. After after a few gens take stock to F2. Then hunt that line. You will find plants identical to daddy. Provided you crack enough of them.

But I do find the topic interesting.

MJPassion · Nov 24, 2017

You may find plants NEAR identical to daddy or mommy but you will never find an identical plant. Especially when your adding genes that weren't there before.

mushroombrew · Nov 24, 2017

MJPassion said:
You may find plants NEAR identical to daddy or mommy but you will never find an identical plant. Especially when your adding genes that weren't there before.

Identical is obviously impossible. S1 isn't identical either PS.

If you want identical; clone the damn thing LOL!!

I think it's a common misconception that S1 produces identical stock.

Natural high · Nov 24, 2017

bestothebest said:
I started a thread on this in the MNS Forum, and a member pulled this Nevil Quote out of the depths of that forum
Originally Posted by Nevil View Image
Yep, done that. I selfed the HazeC male. Theoretically their should be 25% YY. I was looking for them.
I got about 33% females and 66% males, no intersex. I progeny tested maybe 20 males, All produced normal male to female ratio's and no intersex. The seeds had normal viability, so I guessed that YY would block seed growing in the first place.
None of the HzC male selfed, came close to being as good as HzC for breeding.
N.
Now the important part is that the YY appears to block seed development. This HazeC is what we would call an elite male, and although he said the selved children were not as good, he only tested twenty, and once said the same thing about the children of the NL5 HazeC.

Yes I agree that everything Nevil found suggests that YY fails to develop to seed. This is interesting as viable YY "supermales" can be created in asparagus through similar techniques. Regarding the quality of the selfed HazeC progeny, it may be that it's best expression is when crossed with different genetics.

Reversing/selfing an elite male to create regular seeds

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