Any Ebb and Flow Pros In Here?

I just got underway with my first attempt at an Ebb and Flow grow. Was hoping I could get some E&F vets in here to offer advice/critiques.

SETUP

• 4x4 table with 25 1Ltr pots 100% coco
• 1000w HPS
• 50Gal reservoir with bubble stones
• Pump has a high quality filter
• currently flooding 2x a day while lights
• each flood is 10 minutes and the water level reaches ~1.5in from bottom of pots
• so far pots seem to be at proper moisture levels including the top inch of coco

I am running Jacks Hydro/Calnit/Epsom Salt (3-2-1) @ 1.2 EC and daily moderating PH between 5.5-6.2

I have noticed many top drip coco growers here have started to do multiple feedings with low runoff with low EC feedings - so I thought this philosophy would apply in my situation too.

Plants are looking healthy as can be and will be flipping in a day or two after I let them adjust to the pruning/lolipopping I did yesterday.

QUESTIONS

1. I suspect that once I get to mid flower the pots will be fully rooted and will need to start feeding 3x per day. Should I keep my EC moderately low like it is now (around 1.2 EC)? I obviously will be viewing to see what plants tell me but just trying to get a general idea.
2. I am currently not "topping" the rez - why do people do this and what is the philosophy behind it? I have instead been changing the rez every 7 days. By the 7th day the rez is low with about ~7-10 gallons left.
3. Would it be better to top the rez up each day and then PH the rez?
4. What is the proper way to "flush" in an ebb and flow system? The way my pots are filled will not allow me to hand top feed/flush. Maybe once a week I should give it a few cycles of PHd water? Is flushing even necessary? Could DripClean help?

The reason I ask about flushing periodically is because I did a mini test run last grow where I pretty much just hand bottom fed 1.8EC nutes and by harvest there was moderate amount of salt buildup at the very top of the coco.
It did not seem to hurt the plants, in fact they looked just as good as my trees albeit smaller. This may have been because I was feeding at higher strengths and I would occasionally let the coco dry out on accident.
But ultimately I would like to avoid any salt buildup at the top layer of coco.

Any other tips any E&F vets can provide?

I am really digging the simplicity of this system and am willing to work to dial this all in and eventually expand in to a second table - maybe even giving rockwool a try.

Thank you for taking the time to read this and I value any input, big or small you wonderful people care to share!

1.8EC seems a bit heavy, especially with coco's high CEC.
check out yosemitesam's threads. he's pretty detailed and runs jacks in coco.

yes your going to need to flush them through the tops of the pots at least once a week & keep your EC as low as possible . coco is really not the best medium for flood & drain because of the salts retention . IMHO , you really should think about another medium or top feeding the pots & drip to waste if your stuck on using coco . recirc feeding doesn't do well with coco either which is why i say DTW .
just giving you my experiances with FnD coco .

Hi Epic ! I'm not a F&D pro, ( not my main style of growing, I'm constantly experimenting with multiple ways in a 100' greenhouse ) but here's my thoughts.

I use Jack's/CalNit in several different types of systems and have never found the addition of epsom at all necessary. Jack's is already quite high in mag at 6%. I mix an equal volume of each that gives me a 1 /.67 ratio at about 700+/- ppm with RO water. No pH adjusting, as this mix comes out around 5.6 to 5.8 every time. No other "magic in a bottle" crap added, ever.

I do have several 4x4 tables. I veg 24 1gal smartpots in each. They get flooded there before moving to 4x8's where they get top fed. Lots of people do well with straight coco, but I prefer a faster draining/drying mix of coco/large perlite/clay balls. I can then completely flood to top of medium multiple times (8 to 12) daily, keeping the pots fresh and oxygenated.

I never bubble air thru water. Not in my res's or systems. I do have a diy RDWC in 27gal totes with airlines putting fresh air into the space between the lid and the 3" water level in the bottom, but they're not down in the water. Keeps my solutions way more stable, no constant PH chasing.

I top off res's with same mix as they start with, dumping once PH climbs to 6.2/6.3 which usually takes a couple weeks.

Good luck, hopefully folks who actually go full term with F&D will have more to say!

epicseeds said:

QUESTIONS

1. I suspect that once I get to mid flower the pots will be fully rooted and will need to start feeding 3x per day. Should I keep my EC moderately low like it is now (around 1.2 EC)? I obviously will be viewing to see what plants tell me but just trying to get a general idea.
2. I am currently not "topping" the rez - why do people do this and what is the philosophy behind it? I have instead been changing the rez every 7 days. By the 7th day the rez is low with about ~7-10 gallons left.
3. Would it be better to top the rez up each day and then PH the rez?
4. What is the proper way to "flush" in an ebb and flow system? The way my pots are filled will not allow me to hand top feed/flush. Maybe once a week I should give it a few cycles of PHd water? Is flushing even necessary? Could DripClean help?

Click to expand...

Been running E&F tables for nearly 18 years. My answers to your questions based on my experience only so take that for what it's worth.
I run 4x4's and 4x8's with 2 gallon smart pots filled with coco.
Your questions answered in the order you asked.

1-I prefer an EC of 1.4 max through bloom. I'll drop that to 1.2EC the last 2 weeks prior to flushing. I find that 1.2 EC provides what I want the girls to have during the early to mid bloom periods. 1.2EC during the final weeks keeps the fed nicely due to the fact that they are now packing on their final weight and 1.2EC seems to make them work a little harder for what they want without over doing it. Also. you just want to keep the coco moist. Try flooding once per day and see how that goes. If needed flood twice a day. I've found with coco 2x per day is fine when needed. Especially when it's packing weight on. You just don't want to over soak it.

2-Yes I top the res for a couple reasons. It keeps the proper level in the res to flood to the same height I want them flooded to. It keeps fresh added nutes and additives where I want them. If you're not adding additives and nutes you're depleting your solution of them. I can control and keep my EC and ph where I prefer it. Plus it keeps the res level high enough so I don't burn out my pumps due to it having to low of a level and trying to pump solution that isn't there. 7 to 10 gallons wouldn't flood the bottom of my table with enough nute solution to reach the desired flood level I want.
I'm able to change the nutes every 2 weeks with no adverse conditions.

3-I top my rez off every 2 days. Could go every 3-4 days if I wanted to.

4-Altho I don't need to, I run regular water, well water in my case. through the tops of the pots with a water wand type waterer with the nozzle head removed every 2 weeks when I change the nute solution and clean the table up. It washes any nutes/built up salts out and gets the coco ready for the next 2 weeks of feeding. I could in all honestly do this but once every month or so but it's become a habit for me over the years. To each their own. Years ago I used Clearex once a month but found the water was removing more of the stuff in the pots.
As far as final flushing goes I use the only product Advance Nutes makes that I think is worth a shit and that's their Flawless Finish.
I mix 8ml per gallon of water and do a 6 hour flush on day 1 of flush. I use a small pump with the appropriate size tubing and top flush a couple time during the 6 hour flush. If you just flood that's ok but if you top flush you'll see any build up in the pots get washed out and that's a good thing. Then I'll change that water out add new ro water and add the same amount of Flawless Finish back to the res and let that flood on the regular schedule for 2 days. Then change that out with fresh ro only water twice more before chopping.
I've used a lot of different flushing agents and like this on better than anything else I've tried.
If you slow down/restrict the water flow through a hose of pump you can top flush slowly witout washing out your coco. Just don't go blasting it.
Yes you need to flush at the end to allow the plant to rid itself of the chems it's being fed. If not you're smoking those chems.
Drip Clean-Some swear by it. I've never used it. I feel better flushing and cleaning my tables every 2 weeks and I know what I'm doing works for me.



That's what I do. Take it for what it's worth. In the end, find what works for you and go for it. I don't log on here every day but I do check in at least once a week. If you have questions just give me a yell. Good luck to ya

Thanks for everyone's answers

@clown baby - I am not running at 1.8 - I am running around 1.2 EC right now

@dansbuds - unfortunately this run I am stuck with what I got - I guess we will see how this one goes and adjust from there.

I plan on giving rockwool a try next run as it seems like its the preferred method for E&F growers.

@MrMMJ - my strain (Blue Dream) is a Mag hog which is why I had to start adding the epsom salts

@resinryder - awesome info thanks man! I still need to read up about properly topping the rez. right now I am just letting it run until there is almost not enough water left for the pump to run dry. is this acceptable or should I start topping off?

I check EC daily and the past few days it has gone slowly declined. I am going to start taking strict recordings and maybe I can report back to get better insight from everyone here.
Off the top of my head it has been something like this:

DAY 1 1.300 EC (fresh rez)
DAY 2 1.250 EC
DAY 3 1.150 EC

I didn't check what EC my rez was last week before I emptied the 10 or so gallons. Shouldn't EC be slowly decreasing every day indicating the plants are eating up the nutes?

I guess I am just trying to understand what the point of topping the rez is if the size of my rez allows me to get by 7 days without topping at all?

It's becoming clear that I need to start writing down each days EC of the rez - if the last 10 gals of rez EC is super low then that means the prior few days were very weak feedings, but if the EC after the 7th day is still around 1.0'ish EC then all the prior feedings should have been a decent strength. Am I making sense here?

As mentioned, I am most concerned about salt buildup at the top and its going to be really hard for me to top feed with water because the coco is filled to the brim - even protruding from the tops on some of them in a type of mound.

Would adding clearex and doing a normal bottom feed from the ebb and flow have any benefit at all?

Thanks again for all you guys's help - I have always been a hand feeder and this is totally new territory for me! I really like the low maintenance of the E&F.

resin ryders the man to go to for flood & drain coco ! hes about the only one i know of to get it to work great on a consistant basis !
i'm glad he chimed in for ya .

dansbuds said:

resin ryders the man to go to for flood & drain coco ! hes about the only one i know of to get it to work great on a consistant basis !
i'm glad he chimed in for ya .

Click to expand...

Thanks dansbuds!!

epicseeds said:

Thanks for everyone's answers

@clown baby - I am not running at 1.8 - I am running around 1.2 EC right now

@dansbuds - unfortunately this run I am stuck with what I got - I guess we will see how this one goes and adjust from there.

I plan on giving rockwool a try next run as it seems like its the preferred method for E&F growers.

@MrMMJ - my strain (Blue Dream) is a Mag hog which is why I had to start adding the epsom salts

@resinryder - awesome info thanks man! I still need to read up about properly topping the rez. right now I am just letting it run until there is almost not enough water left for the pump to run dry. is this acceptable or should I start topping off?

I check EC daily and the past few days it has gone slowly declined. I am going to start taking strict recordings and maybe I can report back to get better insight from everyone here.
Off the top of my head it has been something like this:

DAY 1 1.300 EC (fresh rez)
DAY 2 1.250 EC
DAY 3 1.150 EC

I didn't check what EC my rez was last week before I emptied the 10 or so gallons. Shouldn't EC be slowly decreasing every day indicating the plants are eating up the nutes?

I guess I am just trying to understand what the point of topping the rez is if the size of my rez allows me to get by 7 days without topping at all?

It's becoming clear that I need to start writing down each days EC of the rez - if the last 10 gals of rez EC is super low then that means the prior few days were very weak feedings, but if the EC after the 7th day is still around 1.0'ish EC then all the prior feedings should have been a decent strength. Am I making sense here?

As mentioned, I am most concerned about salt buildup at the top and its going to be really hard for me to top feed with water because the coco is filled to the brim - even protruding from the tops on some of them in a type of mound.

Would adding clearex and doing a normal bottom feed from the ebb and flow have any benefit at all?

Thanks again for all you guys's help - I have always been a hand feeder and this is totally new territory for me! I really like the low maintenance of the E&F.

Click to expand...

I ran rockwool for years. Once I found coco I never looked back. I use a 50/50 mix of coir and the chunky coir or chunky perlite. I love that mix. Just my opinion.

Yes top off. y res runs similar to this
I use 4-5 gallons of nute solution every 2 days. If I top off in 2 days the EC is 1.2 if I wait 4 days I add 8 gallons and my EC is between .9 to 1.0
Proper way to top off- Measure how many gallons you add. I use a 5 gallon bucket to top off with that I put a mark at each 1 gallon increment in. For each gallon you add to the res, add the corresponding amount of additives you use.
For example, for each gallon of water I add, I use 1ml Floralicious Plus and either 2 or 3 ml calmag depending what strains I'm running. Then pour in your main nute, grow/bloom/or both until you reach your EC you want. Just add a little at a time until your reach your target ec. Then adjust your ph
Yes as your nute solution gets withdrawn the ec will decrease as the plant uses it. Having said that you want to keep your EC and PH pretty much constant. f you're EC drops below your target during the week your plants aren't getting the full benefit of the nutrient. That's why you top off the res. You control what your plants get every feeding.
Having said that, the guys that top feed/drip feed get a constant EC/ph with every feeding.
If you're willing to put in the time, money, and hunt for the genetics you want---feed em!!!
It's ok if your ph ranges from, say for example 5.6 to 6.2 between top off additions as different minerals are taken up better at different ph levels. Not a problem You just don't want the ph to start dropping from say 5.8 to below 5.5. Once it starts doing that change the niute solution out. It happens every once in a while.
Sure it's ok to flood with clearex like you mentioned. Its meant to help draw salts, etc out your medium. But by using a pump or some other method like I mentioned before you really get a more complete flush out of it. I understand you can't do that this time and that's cool. Next time just leave an inch or so between the coco and top of the pot for top flushing. You'd be surprised at what will wash out with any nute line used.
And while I'm thinking about it, figure your flood times like this-
Turn your pump on. Time how long it takes to either flood to the top of your taller flood return or half way up the pot. Once there add a minute. That will be the pump on time.
It's better to run a couple of shorter flood time than to run 2 that are to long. Keeping any medium to wet can create problems.
For example, All my 4x4's flood for 6 minutes then drain.

ya ive also found that DTW seems to work best for me..

also. I am 4 weeks from chop.. and ive been bottom feeding .. daily.. and then 1 time a week I run feed through the tops of the pots.. and so far.. no problems..

in the middle of setting up a big grow.. and we are doing DTW. top fed. I cant wait to see how this produces

Thanks so much for the clarification - you have been great. Next time I will definitely leave room at the top of the pots for occasional flushing from top with a wand.

May I ask why you prefer coco over rockwool? I chose coco because I always did it with my trees - and my bubble cloner makes it hard to put rooted cuttings in to rockwool. I have never had a problem with coco tree style and fingers crossed hopefully no trouble this run with E&F!

resinryder said:

And while I'm thinking about it, figure your flood times like this-
Turn your pump on. Time how long it takes to either flood to the top of your taller flood return or half way up the pot. Once there add a minute. That will be the pump on time.
It's better to run a couple of shorter flood time than to run 2 that are to long. Keeping any medium to wet can create problems.

Click to expand...

I will do this next feed in ~22 hours and report back.

Thanks again - if I could I would email you a big hug right now!

On a semi unrelated note - anyone else here use Jacks Hydro?

This stuff seems like a bitch to get to fully dissolve. I have been putting ~50 grams at a time in a 3/4 full quart mason jar with boiling hot water and after ~20 mins of shaking id say there is maybe still a half gram worth of salts still in there. I am honestly considering getting a magnetic hot plate stirrer.

@epic, that might just be the filler.

Filler eh? Did not know they did that. That would make sense then, I even tried putting it in a warm bath for another 20 mins or so and barely did anything.

Most of it is white, and there are some blue pellets - anyone have an idea what the blue pellets are? Maybe I should just shoot Peters and email.

I quit using rockwool for a couple reasons
It seemed to get salts buildup faster. Once it does it throws the ph off and creates lockouts. It also restricts proper airflow during the flood cycle when the salts build up like that and I had to flush more often. and the coco is easier to flush and clean out. Plus the coco could be used in flower beds or the garden where the rock wool couldn't. I also didn't need to find a container large enough to soak a bunch of 6" rockwool cubes for use
With the coco I got 2 advantages I didn't with rockwool. If the plants get to big the rock wool isn't heavy enough to hold the plant upright. I got tired of walking into the room in the morning to find them falling all over the place. Now that was before I used screens over my grows. But I never had that issue with the coco in the smart pots.
I also got more, bigger roots in the coco due to the additional space provided. Also much easier to flush.
Like I mentioned earlier I use a 50/50 mix of coir and coco chips. Or chunky perlite. I've found I get bigger water roots with this mix over using plain coir which is advantageous for the plants. If you ever look at a pot filled with coir and a lot filled with my mix the coir pot will look kinda compressed after several weeks. The mix I use allows for better air exchange in the pot and larger unrestricted root growth-in my opinion.
The undissolved shit in the Jacks is filler. It keeps the powder from clumping up. There's a shit load of it in the maxi grow and maxi bloom powders.
No hugs man. Handshakes will suffice. Lol

i am switching to flood and drain for flower this week i will be in all hydroton and 1.5" rockwhool. just wanted to say this thread has helped me immensley.
i will be running coco and chunky perlite from now on in dwc then switch to flood and drain. or can massive roots be obtained in veg with flood and drain?

bionicchronic said:

i am switching to flood and drain for flower this week i will be in all hydroton and 1.5" rockwhool. just wanted to say this thread has helped me immensley.
i will be running coco and chunky perlite from now on in dwc then switch to flood and drain. or can massive roots be obtained in veg with flood and drain?

Click to expand...

The roots will grow to the size they need to. Keep in mind that roots will grow when protected/covered. I've never seen roots grow wild on a hydro table without them being covered or growing into a coco mat on the bottom of the table. You'll see them growing out the bottoms of rockwool cubes and fill in the grooves below the cube into the grooves of the table and such but not so much when exposed to open air and light. If you're feeding them what they need they'll grow all the root system they need.
Also, because you're in hydroton you're gonna have to figure out how many flood periods a day you're gonna need. You don't have anything that will keep moisture retention in your medium for any length of time.

I've seen a lot of both types of posts from people either mixing Jack's with no trouble, or having problems with it not fully dissolving. Makes me wonder if it's something in the water reacting with the Jack's in concentration? I also wonder if using boiling hot water is good....
If I'm mixing a small batch, I use 3 x 5gallon buckets. Two are filled to a couple inches from the top (so about 4 gallons) with RO water, one is empty. One scoop (approx tbsp) Jack's in a bucket of water, one scoop CalNit in the other. Then I pour the one with Jack's back and forth to the empty bucket 3 or 4 times. It mixes completely with little to usually no residue. I then pour the CalNit back and forth to the empty maybe a couple times, it mixes quickly. Now I pour half the Jack's into the empty bucket, then pour the CalNit into the now two half full buckets of Jack's. Pour each of these back n forth to the empty to thoroughly mix and I'm done. My water is around 68°, PH comes out between 5.5 to 5.8, ppm at .5 scale is 600 to 800 depending on how heavy I scoop. No PH adjusters or anything else added....
For my 55gal barrels, I make 50gal mixes by adding the amount of Jack's I need to 45gal RO in the barrel. Drop in a large sump pump (1 1/4" discharge) that really churns the barrel. While it mixes , I add the CalNit to a 5gallon bucket of water, mix and then add to the barrel. I let it mix for a few minutes, then pull out the pump and done. Same process for the 250gal tanks.
I've got a 100' greenhouse that I'm constantly experimenting in with different grow styles, but the one constant I've kept is the 1 to .67 Jack's/CalNit mix at around 6/800 ppm. Every style I have going now loves it. I've got mixes of coir and perlite, coir and turface, coir/perlite/hydroton, and each of those individual components also used as a medium, in either smart pots or net pots, depending on the system. Currently running F&D tables, top feed DTW, top feed recirculating, ebb n Flo type buckets, and a RDWC of my own wacky design, and a PPK style. All res's get the same mix, and are topped off with it too. I use surface movement to aerate water, no air stones. PH stays pretty stable, rises slowly sometimes in the recirc systems, time to change out if it gets much above 6, usually around 2weeks.
To get back to your question on incomplete mixing; have you tried mixing in a larger volume of water, rather than a small jar? I've never had any problems by adding the Jack's to the volume needed when finished mixing.
There's some good info on mixing Jack's somewhere in the first few pages of delta9nxs's "PPK for a 6 plant limit" thread here in the indoor hydro section. If you're not familiar with the PPK, you'll find that part interesting too! Good luck, MrM

BTW, I grew a lot of blue dream back in '08/'09 and really liked it. Had one plant in a 48 spot outdoor (strains other than blue dream)die in late may, replaced it on June 6th with a 12" blue dream and watched it pass up everything else there (that were planted may 1st at 2' tall)and pulled 8+ of A grade tops and a few more in larf. It was real popular here in NorCal back then, and still is, though not as much. I gave up on it, but do grow my own blueberry/haze cross that's very similar but more fruity/less hazy than the blue dream version. Never seemed to need extra mag, but I've only done this strain in organic soil.....

rw holds more water than coco or coco mix. seems I had fewer buds in enf than multi-drip...fwiw. im lovin enf in rinsed pumice.