incorrect npk and supplement ratios are some of the reasons for shitty bud

Douglas.Curtis · Sep 24, 2018

larry badiner said:
is there a way to find out what chemical a plant needs scientifically and not horticulturally? like some kind of star trek phaser that gives you a profile of a plant

a device like that could seriously help growers who are trying to break into botany

Unfortunately, as far as I'm aware, no. Perhaps when all plant processes are completely understood, controlled inputs could be used. The resulting plant tissues could then be analyzed for excesses or known deficiencies. With this information, it's possible a device could be created.

Even without knowing everything, I'll still be thrilled when I can regularly get tissue samples tested. :tiphat:

slownickel · Sep 26, 2018

ADHDGrower said:
I freely admit my Sources for Learning are not the best and i agree that there is little Attention to Quality in Horticulte Literature.

Would you mind giving me some specific Links regarding P and Ca beeing the important Macros for Quality?

There is this Idea that the Plant doesnt need Ca in later Stages, thats why Growers cut out Calcinit later on. Whats your Take on that`?

Read Albrecht's later work. 85% Ca in the base saturation.
Read Tiedjens, More Food from Soil Science. And then read it again and again. Again, 85% Ca.

Carey Reams, if you do the math on his formula, again, 85% Ca.

And just when you though 85% Ca was the answer... go to the French or Italian Alps and eat their grapes, produce etc. and you will say, Oh my God. What the hell is going on here? How did someone achieve this quality? Guess what? 92-94% Ca!

There is a good article that you can read Cannabinoid Profile and Elemental Uptake of Cannabis sativa L. as Influenced by Soil Characteristics by C. B. Coffman and W. A. Gentner.

https://www.votehemp.com/wp-content...s_Influenced_by_Soil_Characteristics-1975.pdf

If you do the math, you will quickly see that high Ca and P drove actives. The highest K and Mg had the lowest.

:huggg:

MJPassion · Sep 27, 2018

Ca is the trucker that drives the other nutrients to where they're needed for plant production. It would be absolutely impossible to grow any living thing without it.

jidoka · Sep 27, 2018

Unless nitrate and K are in excess...then they truck stuff in vs Ca. That is when your cannabis problems begin

Reams figured this out long ago. If he would have been a better teacher things would be different

beta · Oct 16, 2018

slownickel said:
Read Albrecht's later work. 85% Ca in the base saturation.
Read Tiedjens, More Food from Soil Science. And then read it again and again. Again, 85% Ca.

Carey Reams, if you do the math on his formula, again, 85% Ca.

And just when you though 85% Ca was the answer... go to the French or Italian Alps and eat their grapes, produce etc. and you will say, Oh my God. What the hell is going on here? How did someone achieve this quality? Guess what? 92-94% Ca!

There is a good article that you can read Cannabinoid Profile and Elemental Uptake of Cannabis sativa L. as Influenced by Soil Characteristics by C. B. Coffman and W. A. Gentner.

https://www.votehemp.com/wp-content...s_Influenced_by_Soil_Characteristics-1975.pdf

If you do the math, you will quickly see that high Ca and P drove actives. The highest K and Mg had the lowest.

Does '85% of base saturation' mean that Ca should compromise 85% of my nutrients? That seems pretty crazy to me.

My current nutrient profile is 152-51-211-125-62-80 (N-P-K-CA-MG-S) at a .5 scale - Does that mean I'm seriously deficient in Ca by your recommendation?

slownickel · Oct 16, 2018

beta said:
Does '85% of base saturation' mean that Ca should compromise 85% of my nutrients? That seems pretty crazy to me.

My current nutrient profile is 152-51-211-125-62-80 (N-P-K-CA-MG-S) at a .5 scale - Does that mean I'm seriously deficient in Ca by your recommendation?

The numbers I am referring to are for soil.

Even in the hydroponic world I would say you are deficient in Ca. Check out the high Ca hydro formula for tomatoes. This will give you a better idea.

HS796/CV216: Nutrient Solution Formulation for Hydroponic (Perlite, Rockwool, NFT) Tomatoes in Florida
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cv216

beta · Oct 16, 2018

slownickel said:
The numbers I am referring to are for soil.

Even in the hydroponic world I would say you are deficient in Ca. Check out the high Ca hydro formula for tomatoes. This will give you a better idea.

HS796/CV216: Nutrient Solution Formulation for Hydroponic (Perlite, Rockwool, NFT) Tomatoes in Florida
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cv216

Interesting stuff, thanks! Do you think supplementing with something like a gypsum top dressing be beneficial in my case? I'd use Cal-Mag but I don't want to raise my Mg too much.

My medium is pure coco, for what it's worth... I also use tap (0.3-0.4EC) so there's some calcium in there too.

jidoka · Oct 16, 2018

You are way deficient on Ca. K should not be more than Ca in hydro/coco. Mg should be 1/4 of N, possibly lower...your P needs to be way higher

Edit...are you using bottled nutes or mixing your own

beta · Oct 16, 2018

jidoka said:
You are way deficient on Ca. K should not be more than Ca in hydro/coco. Mg should be 1/4 of N, possibly lower...your P needs to be way higher

Edit...are you using bottled nutes or mixing your own

I'm using the standard Jack's Hydro schedule - 3.7g Jack's Hydro and 2.5g Calnit per gallon of tap water. Fulvic and pH down are the only other products I use.

jidoka · Oct 16, 2018

I find I can’t get close to where I want to be with that

beta · Oct 17, 2018

jidoka said:
I find I can’t get close to where I want to be with that

You don't think a top dress of gypsum would correct it?

Do you have any suggestions for a nutrient alternative? I like reasonably priced dry nutrients that can be injected as a concentrate.

Avenger · Oct 17, 2018

slownickel said:
The numbers I am referring to are for soil.

Even in the hydroponic world I would say you are deficient in Ca. Check out the high Ca hydro formula for tomatoes. This will give you a better idea.

HS796/CV216: Nutrient Solution Formulation for Hydroponic (Perlite, Rockwool, NFT) Tomatoes in Florida
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/cv216

You ever seen a 7-0-0 with 11% calcium LIQUID CALCIUM NITRATE in the real world? All I can find is 9-0-0 with 11%, which is the same ratio as 15.5-0-0 with 18% calcium dry Yaraliva. So unless you can find that fertilizer unicorn the proposed high calcium formula (120-50-148-174) is impossible to make, unless you include some other calcium source beside calnit.

jidoka · Oct 17, 2018

I use cano3 as my only nitrate source (no k or mg). So if I shoot for 123 N from cano3 that puts Ca around 150.

Edit...you could add 24 ppm from soluble gypsum. No way I would do cacl

Much more interesting is how much Mg and how much P you are willing to give up for silicate and sulfate

beta · Oct 17, 2018

jidoka said:
Much more interesting is how much Mg and how much P you are willing to give up for silicate and sulfate

I'm not sure I understand?

jidoka · Oct 17, 2018

Mg is way overused in the industry

P is gonna come with K attached. So are silicate and sulfate. Which anion matters most to you?

jidoka · Oct 17, 2018

Let’s say P is most important to you:
3 gms cano3
2 mkp
Gives 123-120-150-150 n-p-k-ca

But do you want silicate? Ksil? That means you either have to raise k or drop p. Raise k is no bueno based on my tissue testing.

And let’s say you believe you need more so4 for terpenes. Gypsum...have you run it through an irrigation system? K2so4...well you gotta give up P.

And how much Mg (Epsom salt)?

The devil is in these details

jidoka · Oct 18, 2018

Anyways...call custom hydro nutrients for salts and guideance

Avenger · Oct 19, 2018

Avenger said:
You ever seen a 7-0-0 with 11% calcium LIQUID CALCIUM NITRATE in the real world? All I can find is 9-0-0 with 11%, which is the same ratio as 15.5-0-0 with 18% calcium dry Yaraliva. So unless you can find that fertilizer unicorn the proposed high calcium formula (120-50-148-174) is impossible to make, unless you include some other calcium source beside calnit.

I pulled my head out of my arse long enough to realize that anhydrous calcium nitrate diluted in water would get you pretty close to 7-0-0 with 11% calcium. So Haifa Cal PRIME 17-0-0 with 23.5% calcium is the unicorn I was hallucinating didn't exist.

RegisteredUser · Oct 20, 2018

So with all this talk against the conventional methods, why is no one actually giving solid numbers / solutions? It seems like all the people with this secret knowledge are keeping it secret. If you really believed in the "science" wouldnt you be open to sharing exactly what youre doing? I just read this whole thread and not one person actually gave any actionable advice other than the Cannaboligist guy, who just says to follow the labels.
:peacock:

Dog Star · Oct 20, 2018

People look in science but those NPK science is shortsighted...

important thing is first to have medium of highest quality,that means healthy and rich soil,wormcastings,humus,good and quality organic matter is best food for organic being,plant is a definitly a organic being..

then its important to maintain or inoculate this same soil with beneficial bacteries
and mycorhiza on replanting,this will help to a plant to stay longer healthy and
will maintain ph in favorable ratios,then after you sees plant eated nutes in soil
while you feeded just water then you can add more food for plant as top dressings
or already intermixed with water solution,you could aerate,add vitamins,minerals,
natural plant hormones thru products that contain kelp,other seaweed products,
organic complexed sugars like good organic honey or blackstreep mollasses to
feed your bactery populations and then your plant will be feeded properly,
healthy and will dont have defficiences...

those micro world under us made much better job than any NPK chart or formula..

incorrect npk and supplement ratios are some of the reasons for shitty bud

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