Killer A5 Haze goes micro

OZZ_ said:

Thanks DWD, it’s definitely an upgrade from my little micro cab and I’m looking forward to the additional height for sure.

What did you do that turned them around? I’m assuming just raising the lights and/or dimming the LEDs down??

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Nope, they needed immediate fluorescent softness and also food I put them under the 200w high output flo they were born under. All the tiny veggie shoots are flourishing under the powerful LED, but they, too are getting food. That may have been the main mistake.

OZZ_ said:

Day 26 veg

Waiting for her new tent to come in, which hasn’t even shipped yet due to covid

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Hey OZZ
I hope you get your tent by the time you wanted to flower her. She’s looking pretty happy now. I bet your excited to have some more space to let her stretch her legs.
Glad you got things figured out. It helped me a bit too so thank you and everyone else for having this discussion here.
I’m having my first go with leds and was having problems with weird twisted growth and everything growing really short and fat. Things are looking better now that I dimmed them a bit, increased feeding and also today increased air exchange.
I didn’t expect there to be such a learning curve going from 400w mh to 250w led. Also can’t believe how much brighter and cooler it is.

Mountainkush said:

Hey OZZ
I hope you get your tent by the time you wanted to flower her. She’s looking pretty happy now. I bet your excited to have some more space to let her stretch her legs.
Glad you got things figured out. It helped me a bit too so thank you and everyone else for having this discussion here.
I’m having my first go with leds and was having problems with weird twisted growth and everything growing really short and fat. Things are looking better now that I dimmed them a bit, increased feeding and also today increased air exchange.
I didn’t expect there to be such a learning curve going from 400w mh to 250w led. Also can’t believe how much brighter and cooler it is.

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Hey MK, glad to hear my 3 pages of ramblings for a plant that’s only 3 weeks into veg has done some good! HA!

There definitely is a learning curve, you know, I think I had these issues on my panama run too but might have attributed the issues to something else. I’m clearly seeing how much happier she is now that I’ve dimmed the light source. Once that tent comes back in I’ll max it out again but make sure to keep it a safe distance away. They recommend 24” from the canopy for veg and that seems to be about right. Very very different than what I’m used too. Hopefully things will be smooth sailing from here on out. I think they can handle it better when in flower but so far this one is especially sensitive to having that light too close.

deepwaterdude said:

Nope, they needed immediate fluorescent softness and also food I put them under the 200w high output flo they were born under. All the tiny veggie shoots are flourishing under the powerful LED, but they, too are getting food. That may have been the main mistake.

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Great info DWD, thanks for speaking up it helps a ton

I want to comment on the plant now that she’s greened back up and recovering. She’s throwing off some really interesting smells. Unlike anything I’ve ever smelled. When I walk into the room she’s definitely emitting a burnt type of smell. Very weird. It literally smells like a dirty used pipe or like a finished joint burned down to the roach. I’ve walked into the room and literally thought I left my pipe in there.

Weird. However, when I do a stem rub the smell is very different. Can’t really describe it other than it’s the polar opposite. It’s still basically a generic weed smell but bright fresh, and “green” smelling. I’m not getting any pine, fruity, or incense smells just yet... just the burned weed smell lingering in the air around her and a bright fresh green weed smell from the stem rub.

Maybe she’s trying to tell me I gave her a sunburn with the LEDs

Maybe she’s trying to tell me I gave her a sunburn with the LEDs

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I've found that those burnt, burnt rubber smells are somehow like catpiss... they turn into loud frankincense when cured, so seems you're up for some serious hazeyness

Even with extraction/air exchange dialed in, when I move plants from the seedling/cuts tent (CFL) to the vegging (SILs) tent is somehow like when you bring outdoors an indoor plant, you can't place her under full sun on the first day or she will stress like mad, you usually give her some time to adapt by placing them on a shaded place, or near a wall facing East for a couple days, etc.

Raising considerably the SILs, or (if plants are small) placing them under bigger sisters canopy, so that only indirect light, or a small fraction of direct light hits them for some days will help.

SILs look like "cool", not burning light, but its energy (not heat) can be as strong (or more) as an HPS.

repuk said:

Even with extraction/air exchange dialed in, when I move plants from the seedling/cuts tent (CFL) to the vegging (SILs) tent is somehow like when you bring outdoors an indoor plant, you can't place her under full sun on the first day or she will stress like mad, give her some time to adapt.

Raising considerably the SILs, or (if plants are small) placing them under bigger sisters canopy, so that only indirect light, or a small fraction of direct light hits them for some days will help.

SILs look like "cool", not burning light, but its energy (not heat) can be as strong (or more) as an HPS.

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After the issues I’ve had with my last Panama grow, and now seeing it again here this has become very obvious to me. Hardening them off under LEDs like I would putting them outside under the sun makes perfect sense.

I’ll be doing just that from here on out. Thanks again Repuk- and everyone else too!

I’ve still got some veg time to go I think as I need to train her top two branches down soon. Probably another week or two of veg I’m thinking. Hopefully my equipment arrives on time. *crossing fingers*

Alright the new tent is in, setup and *almost* ready to roll. I can’t seem to get a carbon scrubber shipped to me to save my life and she’s starting to stink. Amazon just sits with my orders backlogged and they have no live customer service number. Thanks Corona.

Since I have more additional height, I decided to go to a no till situation with organic amended super soil in a 15 gallon smart pot.

I wanted to attempt to make a super soil using the stuff I already had on hand, so the base mix came out to (very loosely estimated) about 50% promix HP, 20% happy frog, 20% home made worm castings with a small 10% addition of extra perilite. It’s right at 15 gallons/approx 2 cubic foot of soil.

To that I added three cups of an amendment mix of equal parts crab meal, neem meal, kelp meal and Dr earths tomato and veggie granular (it’s fish bone meal, fish meal, feather meal, alfalfa meal,kelp and some other things like humid acid, bennies, and mycos).

For minerals I added 2 cups of azomite and for liming agents I added about 3/4-1 cup lime, 1 cup oyster shell flour and about 1/2 cup of gypsum.

Lastly I put about 10-15 red wigglers in the smart pot to do their thing.

I’m going to grab some alfalfa or Timothy hay from a pet store today to mulch the top and see about getting some blumats installed for keeping moisture levels intact.

Looking back I’m a little concerned I might have added to much lime/gypsum/oyster shell. What do you guys think?? Do you think I’ll be ok? Also I’m wondering if I might be a little light on overall amendments, maybe another cup is needed.

At any rate she looks happy this morning so I guess we will see. I’m going to give her another week to get her roots stretched out in the new medium just a bit then flip her to 12/12. I don’t need her out growing my space with all that root room so I need to flip her soon but I need that scrubber .... bad.

Yay!! new setup is looking killer!

I think you'd better err on the too light than too hot side regarding nutes, too light is fixable, too hot is a different story.

If you fall short you can always feed her when she will need it the most (bulking time) with biobloom or similar seaweed liquid organic ferts/teas...

repuk said:

Yay!! new setup is looking killer!

I think you'd better err on the too light than too hot side regarding nutes, too light is fixable, too hot is a different story.

If you fall short you can always feed her when she will need it the most (bulking time) with biobloom or similar seaweed liquid organic ferts/teas...

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I hear ya.... I do have a bottle of Neptune’s fish/seaweed I’ll use that if need be.

What do you think about the amounts I used of the lime, gypsum and oyster shell?? That’s my main concern ... that maybe i added too much for the amount of soil??

Looking good OZZ
I bet your loving the extra height as much as the killer haze. That’s the one thing I always want more of. Really hope you can get a carbon filter. I need a new one soon too but I don’t worry about it much where I live.

Mountainkush said:

Looking good OZZ
I bet your loving the extra height as much as the killer haze. That’s the one thing I always want more of. Really hope you can get a carbon filter. I need a new one soon too but I don’t worry about it much where I live.

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Thanks MK and Most definitely! Not only can I increase my soil size considerably which makes things much easier but the extra height is a life saver. I think I’m going to start calling around to the local hydro shops and pick one up locally. The hydro shops always charge so much but at this point I really need to get one.

Not just for odor control but so I can get the whole environment tweaked in and make sure temps are appropriate before flipping her. She was completely rootbound in that 2 gallon pot so I’m guessing she’s going to explode here shortly when her roots hit that new soil.

Excited to get this show on the road!

OZZ_ said:

I hear ya.... I do have a bottle of Neptune’s fish/seaweed I’ll use that if need be.

What do you think about the amounts I used of the lime, gypsum and oyster shell?? That’s my main concern ... that maybe i added too much for the amount of soil??

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I'm not used to such variety of ammendments, but you said you put some worms in? In such case the pot is an evolving ecosystem, so any "imbalances" tend to balance on their own... and she looks nice already!

repuk said:

I'm not used to such variety of ammendments, but you said you put some worms in? In such case the pot is an evolving ecosystem, so any "imbalances" tend to balance on their own... and she looks nice already!

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I did put a few in, maybe a small handful of about 10-15, not many but they will slowly do their thing. I got some confirmation from some other organic growers that it should be close to the correct ratios. Maybe a little overdone on the lime addition but it should be fine.

As mentioned I’m giving her one week then going to flip her. I don’t want to be surprised by the stretch and I’d rather her end up too small than too big. These small grows are more so I can get familiar with ACEs strains first hand, and that way I can better decide what to focus on later when I have more space. Getting to sample all these beauties along the way makes it that much more fun!

I’ve never grown out Malawi before, so I could be way off base but I think I might have a Malawi leaver on my hands. From the pics I’ve seen this girl seems to be what I would expect Malawi to grow like, but we shall see

Then it should work fine... by the description and knowing other Malawi crosses I'd say this will be a hoggish one. And worms tend to "harmonize" and level-out any excesses making it available for the plant.

I wouldn't wait much more, the moment you sense she stops rooting and starts bulking up I'd flip her. That pot is huge, guess you'll be supercropping or training...

Don't have experience in this specific cross but having grown Malawi hybrids I know she likes to spread bulky frames, and hazes like stretch throughout almost all flowering... as you say you'd better fall short and end up with better manageability, by her size I'd say she's already into that window.

repuk said:

Then it should work fine... by the description and knowing other Malawi crosses I'd say this will be a hoggish one. And worms tend to "harmonize" and level-out any excesses making it available for the plant.

I wouldn't wait much more, the moment you sense she stops rooting and starts bulking up I'd flip her. That pot is huge, guess you'll be supercropping or training...

Don't have experience in this specific cross but having grown Malawi hybrids I know she likes to spread bulky frames, and hazes like stretch throughout almost all flowering... as you say you'd better fall short and end up with better manageability, by her size I'd say she's already into that window.

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I knew I was getting close, but she’s still only about 8” tall as I topped her and tied her down to spread her out (in the other pot), but I have been watching her closely trying to anticipate a 3-4x stretch. That might be under calling it though so I’ll definitely heed your advice.

I’ll give her one or two more days then flip her, she was fairly root bound in the other pot so I wanted to give her time to get her roots started into the new medium before flip but maybe that’s not necessary with all the haze blood in her .... she’ll probably do plenty of that well into flower anyway.

I’ll flip her on Wednesday, thanks again for the guidance!

Having a hard time keeping this one happy, I think I accidentally overwatered her pretty bad being that the pot is so big. She seems very sensitive to overwatering as Repuk talked about earlier. The big pot threw me off and the initial watering of the medium.

I thought initially it might have something to do with her being rootbound in her previous pot. When I transplanted her she had colonized the soil heavily and it seems like it had lost its porosity forming a hard compact mass.

I didn’t massage her roots loose before transplanting her into this 15 gallon smarty....i probably should have, so I thought it was a problem getting her rootball watered as the water might be rolling off her compacted rootball into the loose, surrounding soil. Now I’m seeing leaves curling downwards and even starting to yellow between the veins so I’m guessing I overwatered her, again.

Hopefully I can let her dry out and as she grows roots into the new medium this issue will go away. Dubi took a guess that this is the northern lights pheno... so I might only be looking a 2-3x stretch. Hopefully I can get her dried out to recover, and get her happy before flipping her. I hate to flip her now while she’s under the weather but I might need to do so and hope she shakes it off.

I have the LED light about 28” above her, and she’s far from a seedling or young transplant, so I can’t imagine it’s stress from the LED light. At this stage she should be able to handle it and she’s been under the LED since sprouting so it would be hard to believe it has something to do with light stress. Temps are right at 78-80 degrees in the tent at the canopy. I’m guessing its Being overwatered, and hopefully I can get her straightened out and flipped soon. Fingers crossed that is the problem.

Well, I have to say I’m quite embarrassed. I use to think I was a decent grower but I have been having pretty much non-stop issues lately.

So right after transplanting this girl into her new, larger pot, I took this picture only a few days ago.

She perked up and looked pretty happy and I took this picture right here:



She looks pretty happy right? Well, I wanted to flip her to 12/12 shortly thereafter so I turned my LED light up to max output. Even so, the LED light was 30” above the canopy, with the idea that as she stretched she would stretch closer to the light and become acclimated to the higher light intensity as she grew.

The next day I started noticing her being droopy. I assumed it had something to do with her being over watered or under watered. As mentioned previously she had become quite rootbound in her previous pot, creating a hardened rootball out of the soil. So I thought at first that she was underwatered. In that the water was rolling off the hardened root mass and into the surrounding soil of the large pot since I had just transplanted her. So I watered her slowly right at the base of the stem. The next day she was worse off. So now I’m wondering what the hell, maybe I overwatered the pot during transplant. It is a large pot. I moved the light down to about 24” (recommended veg height) and let her be, hoping it would dry out the soil.

This morning she’s doing even worse. So I thought to hell with it I need to know what’s going on. I had only transplanted her a few days ago so she wouldn’t have colonized the new medium too much, so I stuck my hands into the soil and pulled her out as gently as I could so I could get a look at her. I realize this will cause stress but I need to get to the bottom of this issue so I thought it was a calculated risk I was willing to take.

Turns out the moisture in the soil is almost perfect! At least in the surrounding soil. Her rootball still feels compacted and a bit dry, but she did put new roots out into the surrounding soil, which obviously now got damaged.

However, the moisture content is damn near spot on. Light fluffy medium that is moist but not too moist.

So I think its this d%mn light!?? Is it possible a 120w LED light could be causing this plant stress from 30” away!??

I’m still not sure but I just dimmed it all the way down. If she starts to recover I know its something up with this light and I’m going to trash it. I can not believe that it is the problem, if it turns out to be that is unreal. I know we already discussed this earlier but for crying out loud 30” away and still causing issues to the plant!?? That’s ridiculous.

Update to come in a few days. I never had these problems when working with HPS.

We shall see. Wish me luck. I’m all ears if anyone has any suggestions. I’m pretty embarrassed and feel very incompetent right now. These are damn fine genetics and I want to do them justice. This is bugging the crap out of me that she’s not doing well right now.

This was taken moments ago. Definitely not happy. If she improves over the next day or so I’ll know for sure that this solsheet light is the problem. I have it dimmed all the way down at this point.

Air exchange should be more than adequate. I’ve got a 205 cfm exhaust fan with scrubber. The tent volume is 22 cubic feet so that’s exhausting the entire tent volume around 9 times per minute, minus the loss from the scrubber and intake restrictions of course. Even cutting that in half due to scrubber and intake loss air exchange is still more than adequate.

I feel you OZZ_... but remember, these are hardy plants... she's talking to you and as soon as you understand her and fix the root of the problem she'll rebound.

The tent volume is 22 cubic feet so that’s exhausting the entire tent volume around 9 times per minute

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Man, for me that's not windtunnel territory, is three times it!

The main difference coming from HPS and then growing with LEDs, is that heat and transpiration, and hence vpd, are radically diferent.

The thing I find most difficult to nail on a new micro or growing space, is air exchange coupled to lights, pot size, and tent volume. This is like the "exposure triangle" in photography, you need to balance them out to get good results.

My hypothesis: You have a rather big pot vs the tent, which in turn, get's air exchanged say 4 times per minute after factoring in scrubber etc.

Add to that a LED light that doesn't radiate as much heat as an HPS, and you get an environment where the plant, specially a rootbound, rooting and trained one, will suffer, as she's forcingly transpirating in detriment to canopy development, and, rooting development.

In my eyes, you have a RH/Air Exchange imbalance.

I aim for systems that can do 1 air exchange per minute, and depending on the stage (rooting??) I may throttle that down to 3 air exchanges per minute, that has always served me well, be it micro, tents, or rooms as is it now.

What I would do:

- water, only the old rootball with EM-1, rhizotonic, etc so that it loosens a bit and regenerates.

Leave the new soil less watered until she starts to consume it, then water lightly by the pot rim to guide her to the pot limits.

- Leave the LED at same power it was at 30in when she perked up, or lower the power even more, and place it slightly closer. If the plant is already having issues with water intake/RH, hitting her with strong light intensity will stress her even more.

- Throttle down air exchange. If you can't, leave air circulation on, and power on the extractor once per hour.

Whatever you do, including leaving it as is, resist the urge of making more changes until 3-5 days have passed, you know already these are hardy and adapt, as long as conditions aren't constantly changed.

Specially when focused on rooting , she will look like in stasis canopy/droopy leaves wise until she sorts out her feet.

Regarding LEDs, what counts is the idividual chip or COB power, not the lamp one. I use SILs, and there are 15W SILs with 30 LED chips, while others have only 10 chips with same power... those couldn't be brought as close to the canopy as the 30 chips one which will allow closer distances. Not familiar with your lamp though.

I feel you OZZ_... but remember, these are hardy plants... she's talking to you and as soon as you understand her and fix the root of the problem she'll rebound.

Thanks Repuk, I really appreciate the help here! Man I owe you a beer or ten for all the help you’ve provided. Thank you a million times over. I’m going to implement your suggestions. Let’s hit them one by one to make sure I understand what you mean exactly. I believe I do.


Man, for me that's not windtunnel territory, is three times it!

The main difference coming from HPS and then growing with LEDs, is that heat and transpiration, and hence vps, are radically diferent.

The thing I find most difficult to nail on a new micro or growing space, is air exchange coupled to lights, pot size, and tent volume. This is like the "exposure triangle" in photography, you need to balance them out to get good results.

My hypothesis: You have a rather big pot vs the tent, which in turn, get's air exchanged say 4 times per minute after factoring in scrubber etc.

Add to that a LED light that doesn't radiate as much heat as an HPS, and you get an environment where the plant, specially a rootbound, rooting and trained one, will suffer, as she's forcingly transpirating in detriment to canopy development, and, rooting development.

In my eyes, you have a RH/Air Exchange imbalance.

I aim for systems that can do 1 air exchange per minute, and depending on the stage (rooting??) I may throttle that down to 3 air exchanges per minute, that has always served me well, be it micro, tents, or rooms as is it now.

Good info. Some things to consider. Previous to this morning, I have had the digital speed controller set on 7 the entire time (from a 1 - 10 scale).

This included when she was happy after transplant. That first picture I posted in the above post, I had the speed control set on 7 and she was quite happy. Up until that time I had the LED light dimmed, at that point I turned the LED up to max output with a hanging height of 30” above the tops and I also watered her. <<<<< That’s the last time I saw her happy and things dramatically took a turn for the worst from that exact moment on.

As you can see from my previous posts, I thought it was due to watering issues/compact rootball, etc. After pulling her out and checking everything out I know its not the watering as the soil is damn near perfect.

That leaves me with the LED adjustment. The thing that I’m stuck on about the air exchange is that it remained constant. From the time she was happy, through to today. I only just this morning cranked it up thinking that it might help. It was only up for about an hour before I posted.... with that being said I absolutely can dial it down. Ive just turned it down to “5”. Keep in mind being set on a 5 doesn’t necessarily mean half the total CFM output, I’m not sure but it is reduced substantially. If I go any lower I would worry about heat not being exhausted properly and I think my temps will get out of control.

I have some questions on the following:

What I would do:

- water, only the old rootball with EM-1, rhizotonic, etc so that it loosens a bit and regenerates.

Done!

Leave the new soil less watered until she starts to consume it, then water lightly by the pot rim to guide her to the pot limits.

Will do! Ill give her 3 days or so after watering her rootball and start gently watering the outer parameter of the pot.

- Leave the LED at 30in

Done and Done. However I did dim it back down. I do not trust it having it maxed out again after such a dramatic downturn in her health when the only two things that were changed were her being watered and the light being cranked up to max output.

- Throttle down air exchange. If you can't, leave air circulation on, and power on the extractor once per hour.

Done! As mentioned I turned it down to a number 5. Like I said I had it at 7 when she was happy, and it stayed at 7 when she started getting bad. I did crank it up to 10 for about an hour this morning trying to sort out everything. I have it set to 5 now and Ill leave it at that unless I see temps spiking.

Whatever you do, including leaving it as is, resist the urge of making more changes until 3-5 days have passed, you know already these are hardy and adapt, as long as conditions aren't constantly changed.

Specially when focused on rooting , she will look like in stasis canopy/droopy leaves wise until she sorts out their feet.

Sounds good. Really appreciate you for all your effort in helping me on this.

Fan controller is set at 5, her rootball is watered with rhizotonic.

Ill leave her be for about three days and start watering from the edge of the smart pot.