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The traitor within?

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packerfan79

Active member
Veteran
ISIS was a creation of Western intelligence services. The main reason for this was to topple Assad in order to stop Russian pipelines from running through Syria into Europe and in order to install a friendly government that would allow Saudi/Jordanian pipelines instead. Most importantly, it kept perpetual war going which sells more weapons. Our leaders were starting to realize that the War on Terror was losing steam so it needed to become a lot more terrifying so the gravy train wouldn't end. Do you think its coincidence that Russia, with a tiny fraction of the US military budget came in to Syria and demolished ISIS in 6 months when the vastly-larger US military war machine attacked it ineffectually for years. Obama dropped over 30,000 bombs on the Levant in about 3 years time and ISIS just kept getting strong. Russia came in and basically obliterated them in 6 months.

Now the freakin Atlantic Council is in charge of Facebook censorship and for some reason there aren't riots in the streets. Attacking "Fake News" has always been the first step in modern totalitarianism. Tyrants take control of "the truth" in order to "protect people from lies".

This explains why the MSM was soooo excited when Trump bombed Syria. I was blown away when the media was saying how Trump was finally acting presidential. Its crazy how pro war the left has become.
 

Klompen

Active member
Step two: take the guns. :tiphat:

While guns are definitely an issue I disagree with most leftists on in some regards; guns are used as a weird sort of social control tool in many ways. One side is trained to believe guns are just bad and need to go, and the other side is trained to believe that as long as we have guns all of our other rights will just be magically protected. This reaches absurd levels where one side is willing to give up their rights in order to see guns removed, and the other side is willing to give up rights to see their guns preserved. Its really amazing how well this is orchestrated. The end result is that everyone fights over one issue while our leaders ruin everything else. Abortion is used this way too. Actually a lot of the less critical, but hotly-charged issues are used this way(prayer in school, LGBT access, and even cannabis for that matter). The real trick is to create a system that is complicated and convoluted and then use that complexity to force resistance elements to specialize on specific topics. Then once they are specialized you just have to pander to their specific interests and divide them against others so that no effective generalized resistance ever forms.
 

Klompen

Active member
This explains why the MSM was soooo excited when Trump bombed Syria. I was blown away when the media was saying how Trump was finally acting presidential. Its crazy how pro war the left has become.

This is mainly because the government and media "Left" are actually neoliberals, who are basically pro-gay, pro-choice Republicans. Actual leftists in this country are scarce. Now I certainly have my issues with extreme leftists, but the Fake Left like Rachel Maddow and Bill Maur really bug the hell out of me. Maddow gets paid 30,000 dollars a day. Nobody pays someone 30K a day to tell the truth.
 

Cannavore

Well-known member
Veteran
This is mainly because the government and media "Left" are actually neoliberals, who are basically pro-gay, pro-choice Republicans. Actual leftists in this country are scarce. Now I certainly have my issues with extreme leftists, but the Fake Left like Rachel Maddow and Bill Maur really bug the hell out of me. Maddow gets paid 30,000 dollars a day. Nobody pays someone 30K a day to tell the truth.

i tell him this all the time.

the democrats and the media are right wingers. corporations are not liberal or leftist.
 

White Beard

Active member
This is mainly because the government and media "Left" are actually neoliberals, who are basically pro-gay, pro-choice Republicans. Actual leftists in this country are scarce.

Now I certainly have my issues with extreme leftists, but the Fake Left like Rachel Maddow and Bill Maur really bug the hell out of me. Maddow gets paid 30,000 dollars a day. Nobody pays someone 30K a day to tell the truth.
Don’t get you where Maddow is concerned: I have no idea how much she makes, and I don’t care. She happens to be EXCELLENT at her job, and I’m glad she has that job. As near as I can tell, she’s as ‘left’ as I am (as if situational holdovers from the French Revolution are supposed to matter here & now).

Maher is a rich aging yuppie with some remaining whiffs of his fire-breathing days. I don’t think he’s ‘left’ in any meaningful sense, and I’ve come to despise the way he he enjoys his episodes of libertarian envy
 
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packerfan79

Active member
Veteran
i tell him this all the time.

the democrats and the media are right wingers. corporations are not liberal or leftist.

I agree Democrats and media are not liberal, but they are leftist. I hate to say it but we probably agree more than we disagree. I just want a smaller government. I just want the government to stay out of my life. Especially my healthcare. I don't trust them with my life or my families life. As screwed up as the healthcare system is the government could easily make it worse.

Their is a huge difference between a liberal and a leftist.
 

Klompen

Active member
Don’t get you where Maddox is concerned: I have no idea how much she makes, and I don’t care. She happens to be EXCELLENT at her job, and I’m glad she has that job. As near as I can tell, she’s as ‘left’ as I am (as if situational holdovers from the French Revolution are supposed to matter here & now).

Maher is a rich aging yuppie with some remaining whiffs of his fire-breathing days. I don’t think he’s ‘left’ in any meaningful sense, and I’ve come to despise the way he he enjoys his episodes of libertarian envy

Well I agree with you on Maher, I find the defense of Maddow a bit comical. She is such a corporate tool. She's pushing a CIA narrative right now and practically foaming at the mouth to connect anything and everything to Russia even when it doesn't make any sense. If we end up in WW3 over this "Russiagate" nonsense, I consider her personally culpable. Since when does any true leftist/liberal push war and McCarthyism? She's parroted almost every security state narrative she's been handed. She has been a cheerleader for the massacre of Syrians that our government has caused, and she wanted us to vote for one corporatist war monger so we could avoid another corporatist war monger that the one she was supporting was secretly supporting because they happened to be old friends. Maddow is a dangerous tool just like Obama was. They lull otherwise good people into a mindless haze where they actually believe these folks represent them when in fact they're constantly working against their best interests and possibly even endangering them.
 

Klompen

Active member
I agree Democrats and media are not liberal, but they are leftist. I hate to say it but we probably agree more than we disagree. I just want a smaller government. I just want the government to stay out of my life. Especially my healthcare. I don't trust them with my life or my families life. As screwed up as the healthcare system is the government could easily make it worse.

Their is a huge difference between a liberal and a leftist.

This sort of thing just shows how effectively the neoliberal establishment has warped the entire concept of leftist ideology and liberalism. Starting with the Clintons, the entire concept of being "liberal" became a bizarre cover for pushing things like The Crime Bill, and the 1996 Telecommunications Act, and unilateral use of military force, and all sorts of other hawkish and totalitarian behavior. Oh but he could play saxophone! Then the "opposition" went after him for an inappropriate blow job while he and they worked together to murder foreigners and turn Russia into what it is today.

I mean, I agree within your definition of these things. The media is generally a lot like the Chinese State Media ideologically, and that's not coincidental when you consider how entangled our corporate state is with Chinese interests. In Hollywood it has gotten so bad that if you anger China it becomes hard to even find a job anymore. China isn't really "Leftist" in any textbook sense anymore, but they are a totalitarian regime with a president for life that wears a veil that says "communist" on it. Its a lot like how our leadership wears a veil that says "capitalist" on it while effectively propping up huge corporations and crushing small business. Under the many layers of bullshit there's pretty much the same engine under the hood: elitism.
 

Cannavore

Well-known member
Veteran
Maher and Maddow are both corporate shills. Both of them during this last election cycle have been hilarious to watch melt down over Russia.
 

Cannavore

Well-known member
Veteran
I agree Democrats and media are not liberal, but they are leftist. I hate to say it but we probably agree more than we disagree. I just want a smaller government. I just want the government to stay out of my life. Especially my healthcare. I don't trust them with my life or my families life. As screwed up as the healthcare system is the government could easily make it worse.

Their is a huge difference between a liberal and a leftist.

I personally see no difference and use the terms interchangeably all the time. Liberals are leftists. Leftists can be liberals. They can also be communists, socialists, anarchists, and probably other shit I don't even know about lol.

In no way shape or form is the Democratic Party communist, progressive, liberal, leftist, socialist or anarchistic in nature.

They are corporatists and neo-liberals which if you had to put them on a left to right political scale, would occupy the center-right. Neo-liberalism has absolutely nothing to do with classical US liberalism/progressivism.
 

Cannavore

Well-known member
Veteran
wXP6fOe.png
 

packerfan79

Active member
Veteran
I personally see no difference and use the terms interchangeably all the time. Liberals are leftists. Leftists can be liberals. They can also be communists, socialists, anarchists, and probably other shit I don't even know about lol.

In no way shape or form is the Democratic Party communist, progressive, liberal, leftist, socialist or anarchistic in nature.

They are corporatists and neo-liberals which if you had to put them on a left to right political scale, would occupy the center-right. Neo-liberalism has absolutely nothing to do with classical US liberalism/progressivism.

Liberals believe in free speech, leftist are way to authoritarian to believe in free speech. Mabey I should use the term classical liberal.

I am getting tired of the constant labeling, I am guilty of it. I doubt anyone agrees with all tenants of any party. It would be better if we discussed individual issues without the party line bullshit.
 

gaiusmarius

me
Veteran
welcome to ic Klompen

welcome to ic Klompen

If Democrats had any desire to actually oppose Trump in anything but appearance, they wouldn't be voting to confirm all his judges, or voting to expand his military budget, or voting to expand his spying powers.

Social media companies are not just censoring genuine conservative voices, but they are also censoring leftists. This isn't a war against conservatives; its a war against independent thought.

indeed, the same when it came to limiting the war power, Dems went right along with reps to make sure there are no constraints on Trumps ability to bomb anywhere any time for any reason, as long as he says it's war on terror/al qaida.

i made a thread about the social media monopolies abusing their power to limit free speech, people don't seem to get whats good for the goose is good for the gander so to speak.

ISIS was a creation of Western intelligence services. The main reason for this was to topple Assad in order to stop Russian pipelines from running through Syria into Europe and in order to install a friendly government that would allow Saudi/Jordanian pipelines instead. Most importantly, it kept perpetual war going which sells more weapons. Our leaders were starting to realize that the War on Terror was losing steam so it needed to become a lot more terrifying so the gravy train wouldn't end. Do you think its coincidence that Russia, with a tiny fraction of the US military budget came in to Syria and demolished ISIS in 6 months when the vastly-larger US military war machine attacked it ineffectually for years. Obama dropped over 30,000 bombs on the Levant in about 3 years time and ISIS just kept getting strong. Russia came in and basically obliterated them in 6 months.

Now the freakin Atlantic Council is in charge of Facebook censorship and for some reason there aren't riots in the streets. Attacking "Fake News" has always been the first step in modern totalitarianism. Tyrants take control of "the truth" in order to "protect people from lies".

to be honest i have also seen and read a lot that seems to indicate the truth in the connection between isis and the US intelligence agencies, although i wasn't sure if we were talking about a rouge black op or official cia policy. but there has just been too many reports of choppers flying isis commanders out of besieged areas. even in Afghanistan there are reports of unmarked planes and or choppers ferrying isis into areas in the mountains, where they go on to attack both the Taliban and the Afghan government more ruthlessly then even al qaida at their worst.

not many understand that the US wasn't really fighting isis till the Russians came in and forced the issue by starting to make the US look incompetent by achieving so much so quickly. before that point the US was sitting back and letting isis export oil on a 24 hour basis. those tankers were arriving back and forth by the minute at the height of the oil heist, till the Russians started smashing the tankers at which point the <US started also hitting tankers


I should also mention that while Alex Jones is a really over-the-top nutjob on many levels; he is also very anti-war. That's the main thing that is getting media shut down right now. You can be as crazy and as horrible as you want, just as long as you don't oppose endless war. Telesur also got shut down. Empire Files has had to crowd fund just to even continue to produce any content. We're seeing some pretty disturbing censorship right now.

Jordan Peterson makes a really good argument for free speech, basically any harm caused by having free speech is vastly out weighed by putting limits on speech. social media is the new town square where free speech is a must.

While guns are definitely an issue I disagree with most leftists on in some regards; guns are used as a weird sort of social control tool in many ways. One side is trained to believe guns are just bad and need to go, and the other side is trained to believe that as long as we have guns all of our other rights will just be magically protected. This reaches absurd levels where one side is willing to give up their rights in order to see guns removed, and the other side is willing to give up rights to see their guns preserved. Its really amazing how well this is orchestrated. The end result is that everyone fights over one issue while our leaders ruin everything else. Abortion is used this way too. Actually a lot of the less critical, but hotly-charged issues are used this way(prayer in school, LGBT access, and even cannabis for that matter). The real trick is to create a system that is complicated and convoluted and then use that complexity to force resistance elements to specialize on specific topics. Then once they are specialized you just have to pander to their specific interests and divide them against others so that no effective generalized resistance ever forms.

interesting take on the guns issue for sure, same with the divide and rule strategy making us all single issue voters so to speak.

This is mainly because the government and media "Left" are actually neoliberals, who are basically pro-gay, pro-choice Republicans. Actual leftists in this country are scarce. Now I certainly have my issues with extreme leftists, but the Fake Left like Rachel Maddow and Bill Maur really bug the hell out of me. Maddow gets paid 30,000 dollars a day. Nobody pays someone 30K a day to tell the truth.

Well I agree with you on Maher, I find the defense of Maddow a bit comical. She is such a corporate tool. She's pushing a CIA narrative right now and practically foaming at the mouth to connect anything and everything to Russia even when it doesn't make any sense. If we end up in WW3 over this "Russiagate" nonsense, I consider her personally culpable. Since when does any true leftist/liberal push war and McCarthyism? She's parroted almost every security state narrative she's been handed. She has been a cheerleader for the massacre of Syrians that our government has caused, and she wanted us to vote for one corporatist war monger so we could avoid another corporatist war monger that the one she was supporting was secretly supporting because they happened to be old friends. Maddow is a dangerous tool just like Obama was. They lull otherwise good people into a mindless haze where they actually believe these folks represent them when in fact they're constantly working against their best interests and possibly even endangering them.

yep, i noticed that, why are so many on the supposed left pro things that could lead to war with Russia nowadays? instead of anti war protests at the prospect of french, british and US renewed attacks, all you hear is a deathning silence from the anti war movement. apparently if you happen to be Syrian, your bang out of luck, it's war death destruction and regime change for you im afraid. and thats that.
 

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
This is mainly because the government and media "Left" are actually neoliberals, who are basically pro-gay, pro-choice Republicans. Actual leftists in this country are scarce. Now I certainly have my issues with extreme leftists, but the Fake Left like Rachel Maddow and Bill Maur really bug the hell out of me. Maddow gets paid 30,000 dollars a day. Nobody pays someone 30K a day to tell the truth.


G `day K

This right -, left as per US politics ?
Its not right and left as i know it . Left is collectivism . Right is anti collectivism .

So left wants to group together and greater government control and right wants to be left alone to do their own thang and less regulation .

I don`t see that with US politics . More of the same , just wearing different coloured ties .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 

Cannavore

Well-known member
Veteran
Liberals believe in free speech, leftist are way to authoritarian to believe in free speech. Mabey I should use the term classical liberal.

I am getting tired of the constant labeling, I am guilty of it. I doubt anyone agrees with all tenants of any party. It would be better if we discussed individual issues without the party line bullshit.

you can be a leftist and believe in free speech mang. i'm pretty far to the left (probably bordering on anarchism) and have absolutely no problems with the first ammendment lol.

most leftists and liberals are libertarian left. the authoritarian left are sjw's and communists.

1o0eww.jpg




but you're right, labels, especially in the US are pretty much meaningless. nothing means what it used to mean. this is why i only like to discuss issues and vote/support people who do not take corporate money and simply stick to the issues.
 

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
you can be a leftist and believe in free speech mang. i'm pretty far to the left (probably bordering on anarchism) and have absolutely no problems with the first ammendment lol.

most leftists and liberals are libertarian left. the authoritarian left are sjw's and communists.

View Image



but you're right, labels, especially in the US are pretty much meaningless. nothing means what it used to mean. this is why i only like to discuss issues and vote/support people who do not take corporate money and simply stick to the issues.

G `day C

To me anarchism represents right .
No collectivism , less central control . Do your own thang . Left is collectivism and higher regulation .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 

Cannavore

Well-known member
Veteran
G `day K

This right -, left as per US politics ?
Its not right and left as i know it . Left is collectivism . Right is anti collectivism .

So left wants to group together and greater government control and right wants to be left alone to do their own thang and less regulation .

I don`t see that with US politics . More of the same , just wearing different coloured ties .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

I think this is the old way of seeing it. But it's really not the case, or at least any more. The GOP is just as much of a big govt party as the Democrats.

I may support things such as universal health care but I also want to see our military drastically cut, and abolish agencies such as the NSA and ICE just for a quick example. I don't want the government involved in people's sex lives or their reproductive rights, ect but I do think there needs to not only be a social safety net, but strong consumer and environmental protections as well.

Nuance is the key here. Being for blanket small government or blanket big govt in all aspects is just intellectually lazy in my opinion.
 

Cannavore

Well-known member
Veteran
G `day C

To me anarchism represents right .
No collectivism , less central control . Do your own thang . Left is collectivism and higher regulation .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

There's all sorts of flavors of Anarchism out there these days EB. Both left and right, collectivist and not. Classically/historically speaking I think it's more of a left thing. Bakunin would be an example of this.

Anarcho-Capitalism is the version of anarchism that people on the right, especially US libertarians, popularize.
 

igrowone

Well-known member
Veteran
isn't anarchism just a word in dictionaries and political science texts/histories?
there has never been an anarchist country, at least not in a modern sense
any examples would be of great interest
 
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