Neem, benefit or health problems?

paradoxlost · Aug 1, 2020

Douglas, I just think that perhaps you may have a neem allergy sepcifically. But I doubt it. You would most likely be the first, or at least one of a few. You have 10 years experience on the issue. Neem has 6000 years of use in ayurvedic medicine, injesting neem in as many ways as you can think.

KIS · Aug 1, 2020

Douglas.Curtis said:
Your research is from medical ER reports? I can see why your conclusion is very wrong for those sensitive to azadirachtin.

No offense, but I've dealt with this for over 10 years. I took the time to test my theory and (for me specifically) it is DEFINITELY the azadirachtin. As far as I'm aware (and I've been to the ER for this several times in the last 10+ years) doctors and patients are nearly 100% clueless on properly identifying tainted cannabis.

I use concentrates all the time, I smoke cannabis all day while I'm awake. The same clone I can smoke all day without azadirachtin, causes me hyperemesis issues when it's tainted with neem, neem seed meal or azadirachtin.

Definitely NOT a THC related thing for me, and never has been in my entire 30+ years of cannabis use. After 7+ years of attempting to expand grower/smoker awareness of this issue, I really don't appreciate negative comments about the azadirachtin problem as a wild viral story. Especially when the research is cursory from 2nd hand reports.

I was just sharing the conversation I had with Dr. Adie Rae, I don't claim to be an expert on the topic. Folks can do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

paradoxlost · Aug 2, 2020

Douglas.Curtis said:
Your research is from medical ER reports? I can see why your conclusion is very wrong for those sensitive to azadirachtin.

No offense, but I've dealt with this for over 10 years. I took the time to test my theory and (for me specifically) it is DEFINITELY the azadirachtin. As far as I'm aware (and I've been to the ER for this several times in the last 10+ years) doctors and patients are nearly 100% clueless on properly identifying tainted cannabis.

I use concentrates all the time, I smoke cannabis all day while I'm awake. The same clone I can smoke all day without azadirachtin, causes me hyperemesis issues when it's tainted with neem, neem seed meal or azadirachtin.

Definitely NOT a THC related thing for me, and never has been in my entire 30+ years of cannabis use. After 7+ years of attempting to expand grower/smoker awareness of this issue, I really don't appreciate negative comments about the azadirachtin problem as a wild viral story. Especially when the research is cursory from 2nd hand reports.

Douglas, as far as anyone is concerned, you are a second hand source. You refuse to post any sort of data to back up your claims. In numerous threads on this site people have linked you to use of neem in medicine, as well as a pesticide for other non-cannabis crops, and show no link to any negative side effects with neem. Controlled, peer reviewed studies not finding a link between neem and any negative health benefits.

You say that in your research, which is basically just growing weed yourself with and without neem and than not telling the people you give it too which is which, have shown that neem causes CHS. You refuse to post any data, any actual numbers, or any proof you've actually done this. You don't have a mechanism. You don't do anything except post really well articulated paragraphs that normally indicate an extreme personal investment into the issue, which is a weird attempt at establishing yourself as an authority on the subject. All you would have to do is post up some data for me to agree with you. But you won't.

I encourage others to ask him to post up his research, or post links to other places he's posted his research. I can't find it, or any other research even slightly agreeing with his point of view. I'm pretty sure he's blocked me, as he hasn't responded to me in a long time.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=356995

start at the end of that thread and read from there. In it I post a variety of studies about the safety of neem and douglas is doing his same old thing.

Can other people, kindly and humbly ask douglas to back up his claims, as he will not respond to my post most likely?

Douglas.Curtis · Aug 2, 2020

KIS said:
I was just sharing the conversation I had with Dr. Adie Rae, I don't claim to be an expert on the topic. Folks can do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

My apologies, I edited my comment to reflect the actual source. After all these years I still have a hot nerve on this topic, I should have taken more care to cite Dr. Rae in the first place.

Thank you so much for hosting, and for bringing this information here. I do greatly appreciate it.

paradoxlost · Aug 5, 2020

Douglas you should cite someone in general.

Burt · Aug 12, 2020

Fitzera said:
So I have been religiously using neem as a preventative to funggas gnats after I had a very bad infestation. Yes that infestation was caused by poor watering practices and super soil.

But ever since, because it gave me a bit of a scare, I've used neem mixed into my soil as I found it worked very well, and I want to be proactive vs reactive.

I was just watching a live feed on insta, Jotaherb, and they were talking about gnats. I mentioned how I'm using neem, to which Jota replied is an awful product to use. He went on to say because it's a pesticide and attacks the microbes in your soil. As well as there is evidence pointing to it as a cause of an allergy (I cant recall the name, but basically you get violently nauseous and only a hot shower alleviates the symptoms). On top of all that, he went on to say you dont actually know what you're getting in that package and you dont know what was used on the plants that are now in that package.

I plan on reading further into this, but I'm curious your view points on the subject.
Do you use it?
Do you refuse to use it?
Have you noticed negative impacts on your soil, plants or personal health?
Any other information youd like to point out?
Any links on the subject you would like to add?

PS Goolge is telling me it's called cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome but I believe Jota called it something else...further talking with him...it is hyperemesis.

I’ve never had problems using neem oil on leaves and I have an extremely sensitive gut as well.
For fungus gnats, yellow sticky traps cannot be beat and require zero neem

SupraSPL · Sep 10, 2020

https://www.thegrowthop.com/cannabis-health/does-neem-oil-cause-cannabinoid-hyperemesis-syndrome

"Both Dr. Folan and Dr. Mitchell agree CHS symptoms are likely caused by the deregulation of the transient receptor potential vanilloid 1 or TRPV1 (capsaicin) receptor. This receptor, Dr. Folan says, only responds to three things: heat in the form of hot showers, cannabis and hot peppers."

“A CHS study that came out in 2018 shows the inactivation of the TRPV1 receptor and that’s a game-changer in terms of understanding CHS,” he suggests. “There’s a lot we don’t know, but there’s a good forming hypothesis for how chronic stimulation of these receptors causes deregulation.”

"Nausea and vomiting caused by CHS can be relived with hot showers and hot peppers. AGC Case Reports Journal

The 2018 study notes that overconsumption of cannabis can inactivate the TRPV1 receptor, which, in turn, causes nausea and alters gastric mobility.

CHS patients often treat their symptoms with hot showers, eating hot peppers or rubbing hot pepper paste on their bodies to reactivate the TRPV1 receptor and normalize gastric mobility.

More and better research is needed to better understand the effects of cannabis, Dr. Folan says. He cautions that “the dose makes the poison,” and overconsumption can be costly."

Chi13 · Sep 10, 2020

Burt said:
I’ve never had problems using neem oil on leaves and I have an extremely sensitive gut as well.
For fungus gnats, yellow sticky traps cannot be beat and require zero neem

I stopped using neem as a soil drench some time ago, although I never had the vomiting thing.
I find sticky traps to be almost ineffectual for fungus gnats. Sure they trap adults but only the ones that get caught. An adult can lay a couple of hundred eggs, and plenty don't end up stuck. Maybe I am using them wrong or not enough?

SupraSPL · Sep 10, 2020

I turn off all the lights, hang a headlamp up to attract them and shop vac a few hundred/thousand adults out of the air every few days. The population will quickly die down especially as the soil settles in. I have to do this a few times after I bring a new batch of soil in, because I have become a recycled soil/compost maniac. It has been well worth the trouble. I have never had healthier, faster growing plants.

I recently sprayed some Neem because I have some thrips too. The thrips and gnats are no big deal but I am curious if the Neem will put a hurting on them.

Loc Dog · Sep 10, 2020

Fungus gnats are so easy to get rid of. When you hydrate a brick of coir. use a watering can with boiling water. Hang yellow sticky traps. I make 5 gallon buckets of nutrients at a time. Throw a mosquito dunk in it, and keep moving to new bucket. I have not used sticky traps in years, and have not seen any since i started watering coir bricks with boiling water. I figured that had to be the source.

Neem did save my GG4 genetics when I got broad mites, using snype's method. I was not as thorough as Snype, who seemed a little obsessive, but still eliminated them. I lost whole crop, but was able to salvage a plant to be a mother. I had moved some vegging plants outside into an above ground pool near pine tree's and that is how I picked up those little bastards.

Somatek · Sep 10, 2020

SupraSPL said:
https://www.thegrowthop.com/cannabis-health/does-neem-oil-cause-cannabinoid-hyperemesis-syndrome

"Both Dr. Folan and Dr. Mitchell agree CHS symptoms are likely caused by the deregulation of the transient receptor potential vanilloid 1 or TRPV1 (capsaicin) receptor. This receptor, Dr. Folan says, only responds to three things: heat in the form of hot showers, cannabis and hot peppers."

“A CHS study that came out in 2018 shows the inactivation of the TRPV1 receptor and that’s a game-changer in terms of understanding CHS,” he suggests. “There’s a lot we don’t know, but there’s a good forming hypothesis for how chronic stimulation of these receptors causes deregulation.”

"Nausea and vomiting caused by CHS can be relived with hot showers and hot peppers. AGC Case Reports Journal

The 2018 study notes that overconsumption of cannabis can inactivate the TRPV1 receptor, which, in turn, causes nausea and alters gastric mobility.

CHS patients often treat their symptoms with hot showers, eating hot peppers or rubbing hot pepper paste on their bodies to reactivate the TRPV1 receptor and normalize gastric mobility.

More and better research is needed to better understand the effects of cannabis, Dr. Folan says. He cautions that “the dose makes the poison,” and overconsumption can be costly."

It's good to see more solid research coming out to explain CHS instead of the anecdotal ones that have been running wild. Thanks for sharing

ozzieAI · Sep 10, 2020

SupraSPL said:
https://www.thegrowthop.com/cannabis-health/does-neem-oil-cause-cannabinoid-hyperemesis-syndrome

"Both Dr. Folan and Dr. Mitchell agree CHS symptoms are likely caused by the deregulation of the transient receptor potential vanilloid 1 or TRPV1 (capsaicin) receptor. This receptor, Dr. Folan says, only responds to three things: heat in the form of hot showers, cannabis and hot peppers."

“A CHS study that came out in 2018 shows the inactivation of the TRPV1 receptor and that’s a game-changer in terms of understanding CHS,” he suggests. “There’s a lot we don’t know, but there’s a good forming hypothesis for how chronic stimulation of these receptors causes deregulation.”

"Nausea and vomiting caused by CHS can be relived with hot showers and hot peppers. AGC Case Reports Journal

The 2018 study notes that overconsumption of cannabis can inactivate the TRPV1 receptor, which, in turn, causes nausea and alters gastric mobility.

CHS patients often treat their symptoms with hot showers, eating hot peppers or rubbing hot pepper paste on their bodies to reactivate the TRPV1 receptor and normalize gastric mobility.

More and better research is needed to better understand the effects of cannabis, Dr. Folan says. He cautions that “the dose makes the poison,” and overconsumption can be costly."

heresy i tell ya.....the neem oil did it your honour...plain as day....

Douglas.Curtis · Sep 21, 2020

Somatek said:
It's good to see more solid research coming out to explain CHS instead of the anecdotal ones that have been running wild. Thanks for sharing

Yes, but it's been over 7 years since my own experiments... and I have yet to see a single study done with people, cannabis and azadirachtin. ?? WTF ?? Sure, there's plenty of research on CHS, but it's all THC centered as far as I've seen. That's great, CHS is a serious issue for those who suffer from it, but there are massive numbers of people who have azadirachtin issues and not CHS.

Who's boots need to be set on fire to get a study done around here? I feel like I'm trying to convince people water is wet, and nobody believes me. lol

MindEater · Sep 21, 2020

So the capsaicin receptacle interacts with capsaicin, hot water and Cannabis. Cannabis does one thing while the other two do the opposite. That's weird. That's like saying you can reverse an orgasm by switching dildos.

Somatek · Sep 22, 2020

Douglas.Curtis said:
Yes, but it's been over 7 years since my own experiments... and I have yet to see a single study done with people, cannabis and azadirachtin. ?? WTF ?? Sure, there's plenty of research on CHS, but it's all THC centered as far as I've seen. That's great, CHS is a serious issue for those who suffer from it, but there are massive numbers of people who have azadirachtin issues and not CHS.

Who's boots need to be set on fire to get a study done around here? I feel like I'm trying to convince people water is wet, and nobody believes me. lol

Generally when you argue against science, based on anecdotal or poorly designed tests; people aren't going to believe you unless they share the same bias. It was questionable years ago when it was poorly understood, now it's comical how you refuse to acknowledge the growing body of studies that contradicts your belief

Douglas.Curtis · Sep 30, 2020

Somatek said:
Generally when you argue against science, based on anecdotal or poorly designed tests; people aren't going to believe you unless they share the same bias. It was questionable years ago when it was poorly understood, now it's comical how you refuse to acknowledge the growing body of studies that contradicts your belief

When you are polite and have a discussion, things go politely. When you are snarky, and doing so from a position of inferior education, it really makes you look worse than you probably are. Don't be that guy.

You apparently have a weak understanding of science. It's common with today's high school graduates, so you're excused. Until there are studies using people, aza/neem products and cannabis, there are a total of zero studies with results disproving the hypothesis I've already proven. What's more, continued experience that last 7 years has done nothing but reinforce it.

You, who have zero personal experience researching this subject, are talking pure wind. The same as many other situations which took years for the light to shine bright enough for others to see, I have no doubts of the eventual outcome of this particular issue. :woohoo:

(reading stuffz on the interwebz will only get you so far... at some point you have to get your hands dirty or your opinion is worthless)

troutman · Sep 30, 2020

I tried neem once and hate that smell.

Lost in a SOG · Sep 30, 2020

Spit balling from what i know and scientifically, It seems highly unlikely since neem has actually been taken internally in india for over 5000 years with very few issues, if any issue, reported that it would be something about the effect of the inhaled consumption of cannabis in certain individuals..

H. pylori actually exists in all gastric systems as a part of a healthy GIT.. however it clusters around ulcers once the underlying imbalance has gone on long enough to cause the ulcer. H. pylori doesnt cause the ulcer it the egg not the chicken.

If you have an ulcer thats the end result of a serious imbalance in the normal functioning of your mucous membranes and enzyme, goblet cell functioning often from chronicly out of wack pH. In many from chronic dehydration.

When the body wants to clear out the lungs it often makes you vomit an all of that auto immune antigen gunk can get expelled from the lungs.

My other point would be about chronic stress and unhealthy coping mechanisms and a pretendency or individuals with certain anxiety issues to smoke cannabis therefore making it more likely a person as a poorer stress response. Every stoner i know has some sort of anxiety, quite rightly in this fucked up prison of a planet, often blue but not always but very often larvate titanic fast twitch nervous system types. I suspect cause correlation confusion where neem is concerned. But quantitative results speak louder than anecdotal in our world.

I suffered from hypermesis, from smoking weed, for a year but wasnt using neem and was my underlying health was the cause.

Maybe a weak terrain is the cause rather than a suspected endogenous chemical..

Id suspect some underperforming liver detoxification enzyme as a cause in some and probably generally backed up excretion pathways for many others.

Crazy Chester · Sep 30, 2020

BullDogDad said:
So we’re obviously talking concentrated neem oil products? I saw one person mention neem meal in the soil. That’s the first negative benefit of heard to it in the soil.

Has anyone just tried the recommended dilution of 4 tablespoons per gallon of Dr. Broners soap for a plant spray for bugs? It’s what I do and I’ve never had a problem. with pests. I use the unscented soap and apply it with a paint sprayer that helps coat the underside of the leaves. I think a paint sprayer atomizes the solution. You can play with adding cayenne, tea tree or camphor oil. But I’ve never found it necessary. The soap not only kills them but washes them away.

Even indoor plants in air filtered rooms will accumulate dust over the coarse of a grow. Especially when growing long flowering sativas like me. A friend in Cali recently turned me on to the practice of washing your buds. Said you’d be surprised how much dirt is left in wash water when rinsing a harvest. I imagine Dr. B’s recommended dilution of 1-2 tsp per gal for a vegetable rinse would work well for this practice. And as far as residue, anyone who’s used Dr. B’s can attest to how quickly and cleanly it rinses away with fresh water. An alternative to this is bathing and rinsing the plants prior to harvest while still standing. Decrease humidity and increase airflow appropriately to dry them out then cut and hang like normal. I’m gonna try it this year. Only thing I will clarify is to be sure that the concentrations of soap we are talking will not dissolve the oily trichomes. I think i recall that trichomes are encased in a clear waxy shell. I have used Dr. B spray at much higher concentrations than recommended here and have not had damage to trichomes. But it’s good to be sure and exact in the recipe.

I've been using 1 tbs of raw cold pressed neem oil, 1 tbs of Dr. Bronner's Sal Suds and a little more than a tbs of isopropyl alcohol in a gallon of water for bugs. It's worked great, as long as it's done at lights out when the stomatas are closed - otherwise you burn your plants.

However, due to Douglas's nasty neem allergy, and the probability that there are others who similarly suffer from it, I am going to replace the neem in the recipe with some other oil soon, as it is getting low in the bottle (I don't seem to have a physical problem with neem and I grow for my own use, but I inevitably share some with others).

My understanding is that the neem oil is in that particular mix for the purpose of getting it to stick to the bugs/eggs (so that they dry out), rather than for its other insecticidal properties. So any oil should do as a replacement.

Somatek · Oct 11, 2020

Douglas.Curtis said:
When you are polite and have a discussion, things go politely. When you are snarky, and doing so from a position of inferior education, it really makes you look worse than you probably are. Don't be that guy.

You apparently have a weak understanding of science. It's common with today's high school graduates, so you're excused. Until there are studies using people, aza/neem products and cannabis, there are a total of zero studies with results disproving the hypothesis I've already proven. What's more, continued experience that last 7 years has done nothing but reinforce it.

You, who have zero personal experience researching this subject, are talking pure wind. The same as many other situations which took years for the light to shine bright enough for others to see, I have no doubts of the eventual outcome of this particular issue.
(reading stuffz on the interwebz will only get you so far... at some point you have to get your hands dirty or your opinion is worthless)

How do you know how much experience I have researching it? There ya go making unfounded assumptions that support your bias again...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23890687/

Here's a study about CHS induced by synthetic cannabinoids, seems unlikely any neem was involved.

Or there's the fact that neem overdoses cause brain and nerve damage, which aren't present in CHS cases. It's a flimsy argument that's laughable in the reputable medical community but keep on confusing people that don't know any better to feed your ego.

Neem, benefit or health problems?

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