To trim fanleaves or not?

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

yields.

yields.

Switcher56 said:
I will take his advice over some advice given here. (RR, I'm only quoting your post)

e.g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdfW2p-lHN0

I went from 0.6g/w to 0.9g/w manifolding. I should get or exceed a g/w this run. Read I said should, because based on previous runs, she looks very promising, in meeting the challenge. Mind you that is "my" environment, folks millage may vary.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=83457&pictureid=2067893&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]
click to enlarge

I avg
2.15 gram per watt with just a basic complete 12 mineral formula
no trimming, no supplements, no co2, no trimming
2.5 lb per 1000 w consistency

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

Switcher56 said:
... and nothing more than a waste of the "stored energy". I want my energy to go to the colas.

the fans MAKE the energy to give to gove to the cola
that is how plants work
they do not store energy
they are the photosynthetic factories of the plant by a factor of 10x

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

no

no

sshz said:
Defoliation will absolutely increase yields, anyone who says otherwise is clueless. Here is a great podcast on why/how/when.......

https://player.fm/series/the-grow-f...asta-jeff-of-irie-genetics/ep-482-defoliating

that is wrong
anyone who says other wise needs to stop watching YouTube and read actual agricultural books

RockinRobot · Nov 24, 2020

nohnsmith1010 said:
there is no blocking. the fan leaves manufacture more chlorophyll than any small leaf underneath
the chloraphyl and energy are transported through the vascular system
that is why plants grow leaves.
the leaves do not grow for their own sake.
plants grow in spite of man not because of man

Not talking about bud leaf talking about lower fan leaves. Believe what you like but letting huge fan leaves sit up high in the canopy and block light from multiple lower fan leaves does rob the plant just like overlapping solar panels would stop the lower panels from getting light.

My analogy is definitely better than yours was

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

30 years growing, 15 years semi commercial ( 80000 w ) and inventer if the first carbon filter in Canada in 1997 under the name TIBBITS AIR .
2.5 lb per 1000 w / 70 day flower .
no additives, supplements, trimming , co2 etc
basic 12 mineral feed solution that I made myself ( can post formula too . costs about 10$ to make 20 l 100 to 1 concentrate)

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

If you are posting about whether to trim or not trim a fan leaf that suggests that you have not taken down a lot if crops .how about this...get a couple crops with nothing other than the basic 12 minerals required.
no supplements ( save money and do math after you get a yield without to compare it against. )
no training or trimming ( again , get a couple baseline crop)
the seed companies don't specify your crops wont grow with out some exotic food or training requirements.
the difference between you giving the basics and getting an excellent yield vs any technique or additives will be minimal . NOTHING happens in nature outside a +/-5 % range . any benefits will directly be tied to the plant. 100 gram does NOT become 200 g ..it may become 105 gram .
you may increase yield a few grams but you also may reduce it a lot more.

RockinRobot · Nov 24, 2020

nohnsmith1010 said:
30 years growing, 15 years semi commercial ( 80000 w ) and inventer if the first carbon filter in Canada in 1997 under the name TIBBITS AIR .
2.5 lb per 1000 w / 70 day flower .
no additives, supplements, trimming , co2 etc
basic 12 mineral feed solution that I made myself ( can post formula too . costs about 10$ to make 20 l 100 to 1 concentrate)

I can do that with a 3 month veg also. I'll settle for 1.5lb from my 600w with only 2 week veg

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

no veg

no veg

RockinRobot said:
I can do that with a 3 month veg also. I'll settle for 1.5lb from my 600w with only 2 week veg

there is no veg . time . it runs concurrent.
it is continual. every 2.5 weeks we take down 4x16 foot tables ( 4x4 tables 4 long ) we get 5 lb that comes from 1760 watt VGA. 10 week flower on mk ultra .
we get high of 2.75 . but AVG 2.5
no down time . 4x 16 ' tables
every 2.5 weeks take 400 cuttings, cut 400 small plants then clean and replant immediately.
and that was averaged over 80000 watt fir 15 years.
you learn fast that 90 % of weed products are unessaesry or down right fraudelent .
you can only put so much plant matter in a cubic foot

RockinRobot · Nov 24, 2020

nohnsmith1010 said:
there is no veg . time . it runs concurrent.
it is continual. every 2.5 weeks we take down 4x16 foot tables ( 4x4 tables 4 long ) we get 5 lb that comes from 1760 watt VGA. 10 week flower on mk ultra .
we get high of 2.75 . but AVG 2.5
no down time . 4x 16 ' tables
every 2.5 weeks take 400 cuttings, cut 400 small plants then clean and replant immediately.
and that was averaged over 80000 watt fir 15 years.
you learn fast that 90 % of weed products are unessaesry or down right fraudelent .
you can only put so much plant matter in a cubic foot

Well at 100 cuts per 4x4 you aren't going to have much leaf to bother trimming anyway so it would be a moot point to you, and would indeed probably be a detriment. Doesn't mean it doesn't help other growers.

As for nutes I agree you don't need expensive crap and additives. I just use MAXI-GROW and MAXI-BLOOM dry nutes and a little liquid koolbloom.

sshz · Nov 24, 2020

simon said:
I'm a bit confused. Below is a pic of your garden picked randomly from your gallery. My eyes definitely are not what they used to be, but it sure looks like a whole lot of fan leaves.

View Image

Simon

That is an old grow.......below is the new grow. 3 lbs. 5 oz in a 4 X 4 sq. ft area. Same on the opposite side of the room not shown

sshz · Nov 24, 2020

Check out my last grow, it currently has over 30K views and goes into great detail about defoliation. For 30 years, I never touched my plants, other than an occasional topping. I've gone from an average of 65 oz to over 100 oz a crop with a few changes, the main ones being LED's and defoliation. Read the thread, then we'll talk about it.

https://www.*********.com/threads/irie-seeds-orange-gasm-under-gavita-pro-1700e-leds.113333/

It's at t-h-c-f-a-r-m-e-r since they won't post the website. Or do a google search for "sshz and orange gasm".

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

trim

trim

RockinRobot said:
Well at 100 cuts per 4x4 you aren't going to have much leaf to bother trimming anyway so it would be a moot point to you, and would indeed probably be a detriment. Doesn't mean it doesn't help other growers.

As for nutes I agree you don't need expensive crap and additives. I just use MAXI-GROW and MAXI-BLOOM dry nutes and a little liquid koolbloom.

there are always leaves. that is the nature of the plant. every node will have a main stalk branch, a petiol ( leaf stem ) with a fan leaf to it and a branch with the same reoccurring theme . each has it's own function. taking bottom leaves off is good to do . even clean up the bottom branches and small unproductive buds or leaves. that will help concentrate the flowering hormone auxin at the tips.
maybe even topping , ( taking the terminal branch tip off) but then it takes 2 to 3 weeks to bring the auxin level up again .that takes away from the production of that space. you could be 3 weeks into flower . if the space is limited and time is not a factor there are lots of techniques that can help bit none will supercede a good consistent planting regime .
the plant puts out an excellent yield and quality all by itself without any help other than minimum requirements. 12 basic minerals N P K Ca Mg S Fe Mn B Cu Z Mo
light, water , reasonable temp and atmospheric co2 levels.
get some consistent yields without anything so you can at least have the results to compare to should you decide to, take off fan leaves , add some special ( most lilky expensive) supplement , do a weird light schedule ( longer shorter , whatever ) .
you will not be dissatisfied with an excellent yield of quality crop.
do less to get the best

Switcher56 · Nov 24, 2020

Switcher56 said:

The topic is a "hung jury", many would disagree with you

Click to expand...

nohnsmith1010 said:
there is always other opinions but science is science .
personally I ran around 80000 w fir 15 years . been growing since 1989
we put out about 80lb a month . i did a sea of green method with 9 plants per sq ft . went right from 21 day old cuttings into 4 " cubes flowered immediately.
we got an avg of 2.5 lb per 25 sq ft per 1000 w light with a 10 to 1 bloom to veg light . was able to provide enough cuts from 1000 w to supply 10000 w light . 25 lb per 11000 watt total ( 10000 bloom 1000 veg )
I have grown, cut and planted every way possible you could think of and probably several you could not. ( as we just made them )
my personal advice after doing 60 hour weeks working in grow ops is ...
add no supplements
use basic complete 12 mineral feed solution
do not use ANY other supplements. no resin enhancer, cal mag , bacterial additives ( had first beneficial bacteria company in 1994 in Toronto )
Best advice is do it with absolutely nothing beyond minimum so you got a base to compare something too
doing less will get you 95% of the best you could do with all unnecessary techniques or additives .
PLANTS GROW IN SPITE OF MAN NOT BECAUSE OF MAN

nohnsmith1010 said:
there is no blocking. the fan leaves manufacture more chlorophyll than any small leaf underneath
the chloraphyl and energy are transported through the vascular system
that is why plants grow leaves.
the leaves do not grow for their own sake.
plants grow in spite of man not because of man

nohnsmith1010 said:
I avg
2.15 gram per watt with just a basic complete 12 mineral formula
no trimming, no supplements, no co2, no trimming
2.5 lb per 1000 w consistency

nohnsmith1010 said:
the fans MAKE the energy to give to gove to the cola
that is how plants work
they do not store energy
they are the photosynthetic factories of the plant by a factor of 10x

nohnsmith1010 said:
that is wrong
anyone who says other wise needs to stop watching YouTube and read actual agricultural books

nohnsmith1010 said:
30 years growing, 15 years semi commercial ( 80000 w ) and inventer if the first carbon filter in Canada in 1997 under the name TIBBITS AIR .
2.5 lb per 1000 w / 70 day flower .
no additives, supplements, trimming , co2 etc
basic 12 mineral feed solution that I made myself ( can post formula too . costs about 10$ to make 20 l 100 to 1 concentrate)

nohnsmith1010 said:
If you are posting about whether to trim or not trim a fan leaf that suggests that you have not taken down a lot if crops .how about this...get a couple crops with nothing other than the basic 12 minerals required.
no supplements ( save money and do math after you get a yield without to compare it against. )
no training or trimming ( again , get a couple baseline crop)
the seed companies don't specify your crops wont grow with out some exotic food or training requirements.
the difference between you giving the basics and getting an excellent yield vs any technique or additives will be minimal . NOTHING happens in nature outside a +/-5 % range . any benefits will directly be tied to the plant. 100 gram does NOT become 200 g ..it may become 105 gram .
you may increase yield a few grams but you also may reduce it a lot more.

nohnsmith1010 said:
there are always leaves. that is the nature of the plant. every node will have a main stalk branch, a petiol ( leaf stem ) with a fan leaf to it and a branch with the same reoccurring theme . each has it's own function. taking bottom leaves off is good to do . even clean up the bottom branches and small unproductive buds or leaves. that will help concentrate the flowering hormone auxin at the tips.
maybe even topping , ( taking the terminal branch tip off) but then it takes 2 to 3 weeks to bring the auxin level up again .that takes away from the production of that space. you could be 3 weeks into flower . if the space is limited and time is not a factor there are lots of techniques that can help bit none will supercede a good consistent planting regime .
the plant puts out an excellent yield and quality all by itself without any help other than minimum requirements. 12 basic minerals N P K Ca Mg S Fe Mn B Cu Z Mo
light, water , reasonable temp and atmospheric co2 levels.
get some consistent yields without anything so you can at least have the results to compare to should you decide to, take off fan leaves , add some special ( most lilky expensive) supplement , do a weird light schedule ( longer shorter , whatever ) .
you will not be dissatisfied with an excellent yield of quality crop.
do less to get the best

You are one of them!

I don't get my info from you tube, but I have found a "direct" correlation between Bonsai and Cannabis, and sorry son, they have been at it longer than you.

Wrt commercial grows, have at it. I don't buy commercial.

As stated it is a hung jury. You do what you do, and I'll do what I do!!! :tiphat:

ETA: They say a pictures or it didn't happen. Read your grows!

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 24, 2020

RockinRobot said:
Well at 100 cuts per 4x4 you aren't going to have much leaf to bother trimming anyway so it would be a moot point to you, and would indeed probably be a detriment. Doesn't mean it doesn't help other growers.

As for nutes I agree you don't need expensive crap and additives. I just use MAXI-GROW and MAXI-BLOOM dry nutes and a little liquid koolbloom.

here is a formula I have used since 1989 . when we started growing there were no pre made nutrients you bought your individual chemical and made them. we did not see the first ready made product until at least 1995 . when we did we realized they had just increased the price by a factor of 10x to 20x
( and more now) for the exact same nutrients. the weed bus is the only bus that does no4 list then ppm and chemical ingredients . every other agricultural industry does, because it's not that big of deal. 90 % + of all formulas come from 4he same 7 or 8 basic mineral compounds
calcium nitrate Ca(NO3)2
potassium nitrate KNO3
potassium sulphate K2SO4
mono potassium phosphate ( this is by far the most common source of phosphorus. 99% of formulas usa this)
magnesium sulphate ( epson salts ) they are 90% water. MgSO4•7H20
chelated trace mineral mix ( a standard range of 6 trace in chelate form .iron and manganese being the most abundant at around 7 ppm and 5ppm ish ..then fractions of ppm of the rest .)
tou can also use mineral versions such as boric acid , sodium molybdenate, iron sulphate etc.
but minerals ions are cheaper they are less soluble but also available over a larger ph range .
chelate will drop out of a solution at 7.5 and will not reabsorb mineral ions won't. chelated are 100% absorbable minerals more like 5 to10 %
6 of 1 or half dozen of the other.
so here is a copy of the formulas we used . it is form a manual I wrote for my workers back in 2000 .
the individual components sell for about 70$ cdn for 25 kg or 55lb . the chelated vegetable mix we use we buy from PLANT PRODUCTS in Ontario but this is a very standard product made and sold by countless nursery or agricultural supply.
it costs about 500% cdn to buy all 6 . I have seen a 20l pail of some crazy premade nutrient sell for 700 $
rhe 500$ ( really 650 as you will want an extra calcium nitrate and magnesium sulphate to equally use all as they are used the most .)
but 650 make you 200 to 300 liter 100 to 1 concentrate. the price of 20 liter of the most expensive one .
rhe pic has grams per liter but also has thr 20 liter concentration formula.

Hookahhead · Nov 24, 2020

Episode 43: Latest Research in Cannabis Cultivation with Dr. Allison Justice.

Start around 38:30 to hear what a real researcher has to say about what she’s observed/measured first hand. It’s only about 5 minutes, and we’ll worth your time... in fact the whole episode is gold.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast/id1258365194?i=1000429256638

Switcher56 · Nov 24, 2020

nohnsmith1010 said:
here is a formula I have used since 1989 . when we started growing there were no pre made nutrients you bought your individual chemical and made them. we did not see the first ready made product until at least 1995 . when we did we realized they had just increased the price by a factor of 10x to 20x
( and more now) for the exact same nutrients. the weed bus is the only bus that does no4 list then ppm and chemical ingredients . every other agricultural industry does, because it's not that big of deal. 90 % + of all formulas come from 4he same 7 or 8 basic mineral compounds
calcium nitrate Ca(NO3)2
potassium nitrate KNO3
potassium sulphate K2SO4
mono potassium phosphate ( this is by far the most common source of phosphorus. 99% of formulas usa this)
magnesium sulphate ( epson salts ) they are 90% water. MgSO4•7H20
chelated trace mineral mix ( a standard range of 6 trace in chelate form .iron and manganese being the most abundant at around 7 ppm and 5ppm ish ..then fractions of ppm of the rest .)
tou can also use mineral versions such as boric acid , sodium molybdenate, iron sulphate etc.
but minerals ions are cheaper they are less soluble but also available over a larger ph range .
chelate will drop out of a solution at 7.5 and will not reabsorb mineral ions won't. chelated are 100% absorbable minerals more like 5 to10 %
6 of 1 or half dozen of the other.
so here is a copy of the formulas we used . it is form a manual I wrote for my workers back in 2000 .
the individual components sell for about 70$ cdn for 25 kg or 55lb . the chelated vegetable mix we use we buy from PLANT PRODUCTS in Ontario but this is a very standard product made and sold by countless nursery or agricultural supply.
it costs about 500% cdn to buy all 6 . I have seen a 20l pail of some crazy premade nutrient sell for 700 $
rhe 500$ ( really 650 as you will want an extra calcium nitrate and magnesium sulphate to equally use all as they are used the most .)
but 650 make you 200 to 300 liter 100 to 1 concentrate. the price of 20 liter of the most expensive one .
rhe pic has grams per liter but also has thr 20 liter concentration formula.

You shit on folks that post a utube video of a well known individual, yet, you don't even know how to indicate dollars? e.g [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]it costs about 500% or [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]500$, $500 perhaps

Gotcha!

PS: take a listen...
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

Hookahhead said:
Episode 43: Latest Research in Cannabis Cultivation with Dr. Allison Justice.

Start around 38:30 to hear what a real researcher has to say about what she’s observed/measured first hand. It’s only about 5 minutes, and we’ll worth your time... in fact the whole episode is gold.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podca...-science-podcast/id1258365194?i=1000429256638

[/FONT]

simon · Nov 25, 2020

Hookahhead said:
Episode 43: Latest Research in Cannabis Cultivation with Dr. Allison Justice.

Start around 38:30 to hear what a real researcher has to say about what she’s observed/measured first hand. It’s only about 5 minutes, and we’ll worth your time... in fact the whole episode is gold.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast/id1258365194?i=1000429256638

I listened to this. Her research is in humidity control. She had not established a correlation with yield, which is our objective, nor is she's working with canna.

As for lower leaves not photosynthesizing effectively, sure, and that's why a taller plant drops some of them after several weeks of flower. The question is, which leaves would we remove? I've been using a light meter to dial in my flowering room for about 15 years. The researcher's suggestion of measuring the light reaching the lower leaves in unrealistic: She had access to very expensive and precise measuring tools; we don't. For us, it boils down to removing lower fan leaves indecrimenetly or letting the plant make the decision.

Was there something that I missed? Seriously.

Simon

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 25, 2020

lol

lol

Switcher56 said:
You shit on folks that post a utube video of a well known individual, yet, you don't even know how to indicate dollars? e.g [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]it costs about 500% or [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]500$, $500 perhaps

Gotcha!

PS: take a listen...
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

lol you are funny. that's silly . of alm that the only thing you point out is a spelling mistake? which is pretty damn normal .especially on here . there is not a post including your rebutle that would ever pass a grammar check. lol
no the reason you bought that up is because that is all you could understand and comment on.
gothcha

!
now why can you not list explain something as opposed to people needing to watch youtube ? if it's real science it's in print. if it needs emotional dramatics it's on you tube

GMT · Nov 25, 2020

Mr Smith, I noticed you used 4x K to P. Did I read that right? The highest ratio on the shelves is 2:1 and most seem to be 14:13.
Yeah, I normally don't bother with bottles, but having switched to LEDs I ran into a couple of problems, and the easiest fix is bottles. I can't remember the ratio in the bottles I've got now, I bought them for the iron content mainly. Do you feel there is much benefit in that amount of K?
I know you talk about the plus minus 5%, but without the essentials, you lose more than 5%. Wondering if you see that level of K as essential?

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 25, 2020

GMT said:
Mr Smith, I noticed you used 4x K to P. Did I read that right? The highest ratio on the shelves is 2:1 and most seem to be 14:13.
Yeah, I normally don't bother with bottles, but having switched to LEDs I ran into a couple of problems, and the easiest fix is bottles. I can't remember the ratio in the bottles I've got now, I bought them for the iron content mainly. Do you feel there is much benefit in that amount of K?
I know you talk about the plus minus 5%, but without the essentials, you lose more than 5%. Wondering if you see that level of K as essential?

if you are really interested in nutrients and their roles and proportions I recommend HYDROPONIC FOOD PRODUCTION by dr Howard m resh and ROCKWOOL IN HORTICULTURE by Dennis smith .
if your reference is store bought product there is not much to talk about. now can you quote the figures? is it the bloom or the veg ?
a bloom formula is defined by the potassium to nitrogen ratio of 1.5 to 1 K TO N .
please be more specific .
potassium is obviously not the real question as I have made that particular formula 30 years
. the fact is it mean much less than 5ou think .

To trim fanleaves or not?

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