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Over-nuted/over-watered in coco?

T

tilopa

Member
This is in my veg room.

-Top-feed recirculating.
-Jack's 3-2-1 nutes.
- PPM 900
- Ph 5.8

First time running in coco, but it is a different type of coco, it is chips-n-fiber. This coco is more airy, it has chips (like wood chips) and strands so it does not compress and is more porous.
Anyway, I've been feeding them once a day.

Does this look like the ppm is too high, or just that I need to not water them every day? Or is there some kind of deficiency going on?

The last pic is a different strain and has something more sinister going on.
 

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f-e

f-e

Well-known member
Mentor
Veteran
Was the coco conditioned? It might need a big hit with calmag just to populate it properly.

The prominent stripes are usually Mg as is the tip folding down. Some in the background have burnt tips that are becoming quite a portion of the leaf, which is likely Ca. That limp look is likely over watering so is there pooling somewhere at the bottom of the pots where the roots sit?
 
A

asher1er

Active member
Veteran
What brand coco chips are you using? I can tell you the recirculating works but not if it’s just once a day.. what are the numbers when the water gets back to the tank?
 
T

tilopa

Member
f-e said:
Was the coco conditioned? It might need a big hit with calmag just to populate it properly.

The prominent stripes are usually Mg as is the tip folding down. Some in the background have burnt tips that are becoming quite a portion of the leaf, which is likely Ca. That limp look is likely over watering so is there pooling somewhere at the bottom of the pots where the roots sit?
Click to expand...
No, it was not conditioned. This is something D9 just started using and he breaks up the block with 1900 ppm ph 5.2 solution of Jacks, and then put the coco right in the pot, no rinsing or adding cal/mag.

No water should be pooling as I'm using a tail piece to lower the perched water table. However the pots are not drying out very fast, so obviously plants not drinking much which I assume is because the PPM is to high, but 900 does not seem excessive.
 
T

tilopa

Member
asher1er said:
What brand coco chips are you using?
Click to expand...
prococo.com chips-n-fiber. Seems like it should be great stuff because it is even more porous than regular coco. But as such it requires more feeding, but...
asher1er said:
I can tell you the recirculating works but not if it’s just once a day.. what are the numbers when the water gets back to the tank?
Click to expand...
I'm using the black and yellow totes, 5 connected via hose at the bottom, gravity distributed nute solution. When I check the ppm of each tote they are about 1000ppm, so ppm is rising.
 
T

TanzanianMagic

Well-known member
Veteran
tilopa said:
This is in my veg room.

-Top-feed recirculating.
-Jack's 3-2-1 nutes.
- PPM 900
- Ph 5.8

First time running in coco, but it is a different type of coco, it is chips-n-fiber. This coco is more airy, it has chips (like wood chips) and strands so it does not compress and is more porous.
Anyway, I've been feeding them once a day.

Does this look like the ppm is too high, or just that I need to not water them every day? Or is there some kind of deficiency going on?

The last pic is a different strain and has something more sinister going on.
Click to expand...
The problem is: way too much, way too often, wrong nutrients.

1. Get a couple of bottles of Canna Coco A+B, some Plagron Green Sensation, some epsom salt.

2. Feed 0.4 EC of Green Sensation and 0.1 EC of Epsom Salt for a total EC of 0.5. After the roots develop and the plant is has a couple of nodes, switch to regular food using the same 0.4 EC, and slowly raise the EC from there. You rarely need to go higher than 0.6 EC using this method.

3. Feed/water only when the top of the coco is still dry in the morning. How long that takes will be specific to your local circumstances (pot size, plant size, relative humidity), so this is a flexible method. Don't be afraid to water only twice a week if that's what is called for.

The effect of drying of the medium on nutrient concentration

Coco can hold 40% of it's volume in moisture. Let's say that you let it dry to 10%. As a rule of thumb, that is a 4-fold increase in nutrient concentration in areas not colonized by the roots.

So if you start with 2.0 EC and let it dry, that could go up to 8.0 EC, which will obviously kill the plant. And that is one reason why so many people get in trouble strictly following the quantities given by the nutrient companies.

So it is best to work backwards and think of what the maximum EC should be without killing the plant, and then multiplying that by 1/4. If the EC shouldn't be higher than 2.0 EC, you should feed with 0.5 EC. As the medium dries, the EC will slowly rise and keep the plant fed. Without burning the roots and locking out nutrients that way.

And now get prepared for the easiest grow in your life. :)
 
A

asher1er

Active member
Veteran
what works for D9 might not work for you.. what i can say is depending what ppm scale your meter uses you can be well over 2.0 EC.. i recommend switching to EC when possible. and a PH of 5.2 is way to low for any coco substrate..

IMO when it comes to coco as long as you are feeding with enough run off, PH is more important.. if you broke up your blocks using 5.2 what are you getting when the nutes return to your rez? I'd give them a good feeding at a low ec with 5.9ph even if it causes them to fade a little so you can bring them back looking right..
 
MrBungle

MrBungle

Active member
How much liquid is in each feeding? it looks mostly over watered to me....

my style of grow is much different than yours... but I try to vary the amounts of liquid used to feed my plants...

usually I give them one massive watering a week to cover the all of the media....

then I let it go for a day or so, and feed it a smaller dose to maintain the moisture content but not over saturate....

not sure if this translates well into your system.. but maybe if you dial back your feeding system, and hand water a larger amount once in a while, you can maintain good moisture content without overwatering.. at least until you get everything dialed in
 
T

tilopa

Member
I just figured out what the problem is. I deduced this from all the feedback I've been given here, and feeling like something just isn't adding up.

There is a variable that I did not mention which I should have. I thought in the back of my mind it could be a problem but did not think it would cause this. The variable I did not mention was the water temperature.

Before I say what temp I started feeding them at in their young state, I was going by the idea that colder water holds more oxygen, and figured roots being in the cold ground and all why would the plant mind really cold water. I know, this was a stupid mistake.

It's cold here and my rez is outside so the water temp was about 55 degree F. This must have shocked them and made them not want to touch the water let alone drink it. And because the medium is so airy/porous I figured I could water every day, this is why they look way over watered.

Does anyone not agree that this cold of water would cause these symptoms?

BTW - I stopped with the cold water, brought it to 68 F, but also lowered EC and stopped watering until pots were dry, but the plants are coming back to look much better now.
 
f-e

f-e

Well-known member
Mentor
Veteran
It seems like you got a lot from this thread, which is rather satisfying. Which bit made the difference you may never know. Perhaps a bit of everything. You are now doing better though and that is all anybody wants :)
 
Legalcdn

Legalcdn

Well-known member
FWIW,

Tilopa.. i have coco DTW (except u have ppk), bridgelux EB strips gen2, jacks..just like you. I was having the same issues and never really corrected. What i have realised is the new coco should be buffered in calmag . I use 7.5ml per gallon (GO CAMG+) and let it sit in a fabric bag for a day. I use canna and its pre buffered. Case in point,I have 2 plants, 1 in reused - prebuffered coco with 7.5ml, 1 in straight baged canna prebuffered with jacks 3-2-1. The canna showed exact signs u have. My old coco, nope. Prococo looks good, i would order but i am living in CDN.

If it progresses, get the plant out of ppk buckets and push some calmag thru, then add jacks after a few hours. I also notice those bridgelux really throw photons but not so much heat. There is some valid points on supplementing with hps smaller wattage to get leaf temp up. I was noticing leaf temp was low under bridgelux so check that.

Good luck, happy new year.
 
T

tilopa

Member
Legalcdn said:
FWIW,

Tilopa.. i have coco DTW (except u have ppk), bridgelux EB strips gen2, jacks..just like you. I was having the same issues and never really corrected. What i have realised is the new coco should be buffered in calmag . I use 7.5ml per gallon (GO CAMG+) and let it sit in a fabric bag for a day. I use canna and its pre buffered. Case in point,I have 2 plants, 1 in reused - prebuffered coco with 7.5ml, 1 in straight baged canna prebuffered with jacks 3-2-1. The canna showed exact signs u have. My old coco, nope. Prococo looks good, i would order but i am living in CDN.

If it progresses, get the plant out of ppk buckets and push some calmag thru, then add jacks after a few hours. I also notice those bridgelux really throw photons but not so much heat. There is some valid points on supplementing with hps smaller wattage to get leaf temp up. I was noticing leaf temp was low under bridgelux so check that.

Good luck, happy new year.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Yes, good info. I'm going to try the calmg next time and pre-buffer.

I'm still have problems with about 25% of the plants. Something is not making sense, and maybe the cold water was only a contributing factor. Some that are looking really bad (curled under leaves) I let dry out completely then I feed them with 500ppm jacks and ph 6.0 and they are not getting better. I would think if it was the coco not being buffered that by now with this many waterings it would be worked out by now. I should have done this a long time ago but I'm going to run regular water through and see what the runoff ppm and ph is. I should probably also look at the runoff from the nute solution feeding as well.

I was wondering how close I should put these leds. My light intensity is only about 19w per sq ft. How close do you have your lights to the top of the plants?

My friend said he newly started to run his veg at higher temps and humidity, he does around 82 F at 70% humidity and he said the plants are growing much faster and healthier at a surprising rate. So, I started doing that, but it is too soon to see the effect. I'm a little worried about powdery mildew.

Happy new year to you too.
 
Legalcdn

Legalcdn

Well-known member
Check the leaves on the perimeters of your plants. Normally they get less light. If the perimeter looks good, dim your lights or move them up. I am about 18 inches off the canopy.

I would seriously point to troubleshooting the coco. Don't flush with water.. checkout cocoforcannabis website.. he has some good remediation approaches.

My next grow with 2 new malawis in 2-3weeks (vegging right now), i will use new coco and old coco.. see what happens.
 
T

tilopa

Member
Just thought I would follow up on this post to help others potentially learn from.

Found out the horrible news today that my problem is Russet mites. These do really nasty damage and are hard as hell to get rid of.
 
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