Potassium def, or...???

ButterflyEffect · Dec 26, 2020

slownickel said:
When you apply a lot of Calcium, you have the responsibility to apply much more K than you are used to. With that said, sure likes you have a Ca deficiency too!

Yep. Sure do. I'm at the point where I think the Biomin was causing more problems than it was fixing. I've been using it everywhere for 3 months now and what I've noticed is if a bucket of feed sits for more than an hour, the pH spikes. Sometimes close to 8! It caught my attention because when I opened the lid, the solution was bubbly. Made me look deeper.

I don't wonder if it brought the root zone pH up over time. In the mean time, I've cut it to a foliar only.

I now have gypsum and I'm in the process of finding out how much to add for veg and thru stretch. Thoughts?

Keep in mind, my media has a very low CEC. Between that, VPD and DLI, I know the answer is in there somewhere!

This run, BTW, looks to be the best for training, node spacing and stacking that I've ever had, so adding the Ca just early enough did have a postive effect.

ButterflyEffect · Dec 26, 2020

Just to keep things recent. Here's a snap of the recipes as of today. The Gypsum is blank until I figure it out...

ButterflyEffect · Dec 29, 2020

Another update...

After cutting the Biomin in the mix and using the liquid smoke(PA) to drop the pH in the feed, I'm happy to report that the run off is between 5.6-6.0

Lesson here is you most certainly can apply too much Ca. How much is too much? Still trying to figure that out. Hell, I did a foliar with the Biomin in veg and the next day I had a Mg def! Epsom foliar and the next day everything is perfect again.

slownickel · Jan 1, 2021

ButterflyEffect said:
Another update...

After cutting the Biomin in the mix and using the liquid smoke(PA) to drop the pH in the feed, I'm happy to report that the run off is between 5.6-6.0

Lesson here is you most certainly can apply too much Ca. How much is too much? Still trying to figure that out. Hell, I did a foliar with the Biomin in veg and the next day I had a Mg def! Epsom foliar and the next day everything is perfect again.

You are confusing elements with pH.

Biomin is made from carbonate and is alkaline.

Instead of screwing up your mix, apply foliar Mg once a week. That will get you past that the Mg issue.

ButterflyEffect · Jan 1, 2021

slownickel said:
You are confusing elements with pH.

Biomin is made from carbonate and is alkaline.

Instead of screwing up your mix, apply foliar Mg once a week. That will get you past that the Mg issue.

I get the difference. That's how I figured that it was the Biomin.

I actually learned more about this from more of your posts here and at the farm. If I recall, it was about how carbonates can only get you so far for Ca saturation.

As for the Mg, when I dropped it from my mix, I got defs pretty quickly, so I added it back in. Not much, just 20ppm Mg & 26ppm Su. I end it after stretch.

What I have also been doing is foliar with Mg regularly and also Growmore Calmag. I found when doing a Biomin foliar, it induces a Mg def rather quickly, so I only do them sparingly.

I've also been trying to figure out the gypsum, but not being in soil makes it challenging.

Thanks for the input Slow, it's always very much appreciated.

dramamine · Jan 1, 2021

Do you guys adjust the biomin for ph when using as a foliar?

ButterflyEffect · Jan 1, 2021

dramamine said:
Do you guys adjust the biomin for ph when using as a foliar?

I don't.

I adjust nothing in any of my foliars. I add a touch of Mr fulvic and a couple of drops of Dr bonners soap. The soap, if you use it alone, will jack your pH to the 8-9 range. The fulvic will bring it down to 4-5, on it's own. I suspect it's around 5 or 6 now for most of the ones I have and I'm not sure whether it's an important factor or not.

little-soldier · Jan 29, 2021

Very informative ButterflyEffect. Please teach me more, I'm constantly having a problem where I flush my plants for 3 weeks before harvest and still the buds burn black and harsh. I even tried 3 weeks of flushing solution and STILL TASTES LIKE I NEVER FLUSHED grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! Not to mention I am having this issue with promix, aeroponics, organics,coco. And been running low ppm. aeroponic was 450-500ppm and coco and other media 500-600 ppm. My guess is something is binding onto the roots which prevents them from being flushed properly. Sometimes I'll get a bud that burns nice while the others dont. Sometimes I'll get a whole plant that is fine but that is like 1 plant out of 20. Tried using RO water even though my water has only 50-100ppm and got it tested but STILL the same problem occurs. Plants are so yellow by the time I harvest that its rediculous but still tasted and smokes like shit. For some reason I believe it has something to do with either calcium or potassium.

ButterflyEffect · Jan 30, 2021

little-soldier said:
Very informative ButterflyEffect. Please teach me more, I'm constantly having a problem where I flush my plants for 3 weeks before harvest and still the buds burn black and harsh. I even tried 3 weeks of flushing solution and STILL TASTES LIKE I NEVER FLUSHED grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! Not to mention I am having this issue with promix, aeroponics, organics,coco. And been running low ppm. aeroponic was 450-500ppm and coco and other media 500-600 ppm. My guess is something is binding onto the roots which prevents them from being flushed properly. Sometimes I'll get a bud that burns nice while the others dont. Sometimes I'll get a whole plant that is fine but that is like 1 plant out of 20. Tried using RO water even though my water has only 50-100ppm and got it tested but STILL the same problem occurs. Plants are so yellow by the time I harvest that its rediculous but still tasted and smokes like shit. For some reason I believe it has something to do with either calcium or potassium.

What is your feed regimen? Without knowing that it's hard to say as I don't know the ratios you're feeding at. Solution strength is only part of the equation.

What is your environment like? Well controlled? More importantly, how is your dry/cure process? That, IMO, is as critical as any other step. More so, in some cases.

little-soldier · Jan 30, 2021

I usually feed,feed, flush in promix. I flush once a week in coco. I tried pretty much every nutrients out there. Never adding anything else but base nutrients.
I did entire grows with Ionic then I tried flora nova which are one part nutrients. Then I did 2 part formulas like Advanced nutrients PH perfect Sensi, dutch master gold and Dual fual. And finally I tried 3 part nutrients M-G-B like General Hydroponics and then GreenPlanets because they claim there is no carbonates which I thought could be my issue.
Other than that, I occasionally give them calimagic when they need it. I would always add calimagic first if I had to use it and follow the manufacturers/bottled ratios for every bottle but keeping my ppm low. I tried the LUCAS formula. I also tried hempy buckets too at one point.
Theres almost no system I have not tried but my dwc,flood tables and drip systems were where I used to live and didn't have that problem at that house with chlorinated city water. My environment is not the best, I bring in air from outside so its hot in the summer BUT my VPD is more on point. In the winter its cooler but humidity can sometimes be pretty low. Pretty sure my issue is not my envoronment because couple of people close to me don't have my issue and some of their grows are totally BS.
As for the drying, I put everything on screens after trimming/before trimming sometimes. I tried hanging the plants. I try to keep the humidity at 60% but in the winter my little humidifyer is not cutting it. Although I did succeed in slow drying a crop for a good 10-14 days in the summer time, it didn't help with the smoke.
Don't really think the drying/curing process is my issue cause even when I was younger and had plants outside. I remember we were always impatiently drying our stuff it in just 4 days and it smoked fine.
I believe my problem might be the little bit of iron-oxidizing bacteria in my water or maybe another bacteria. Its the last thing I can really think of. Although when I got my water tested, iron was very low but I am guessing that if the bacteria is in the water, it must thrive after I add all the nutrients in there which includes quite a bit of iron of all sorts..chelates..

slownickel · Jan 30, 2021

little-soldier said:
Very informative ButterflyEffect. Please teach me more, I'm constantly having a problem where I flush my plants for 3 weeks before harvest and still the buds burn black and harsh. I even tried 3 weeks of flushing solution and STILL TASTES LIKE I NEVER FLUSHED grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! Not to mention I am having this issue with promix, aeroponics, organics,coco. And been running low ppm. aeroponic was 450-500ppm and coco and other media 500-600 ppm. My guess is something is binding onto the roots which prevents them from being flushed properly. Sometimes I'll get a bud that burns nice while the others dont. Sometimes I'll get a whole plant that is fine but that is like 1 plant out of 20. Tried using RO water even though my water has only 50-100ppm and got it tested but STILL the same problem occurs. Plants are so yellow by the time I harvest that its rediculous but still tasted and smokes like shit. For some reason I believe it has something to do with either calcium or potassium.

The reason is a magnesium excess, that is why it burns bad. Most folks think they have a Mg deficiency, mainly due to low Ca and low P. If Mg is too high in the mix, it can go toxic high! And when Mg is toxic high in the soil, guess what? No Mg in the leaves! Took me years to figure that one out.

ButterflyEffect · Jan 31, 2021

little-soldier said:
I usually feed,feed, flush in promix. I flush once a week in coco. I tried pretty much every nutrients out there. Never adding anything else but base nutrients.
I did entire grows with Ionic then I tried flora nova which are one part nutrients. Then I did 2 part formulas like Advanced nutrients PH perfect Sensi, dutch master gold and Dual fual. And finally I tried 3 part nutrients M-G-B like General Hydroponics and then GreenPlanets because they claim there is no carbonates which I thought could be my issue.
Other than that, I occasionally give them calimagic when they need it. I would always add calimagic first if I had to use it and follow the manufacturers/bottled ratios for every bottle but keeping my ppm low. I tried the LUCAS formula. I also tried hempy buckets too at one point.
Theres almost no system I have not tried but my dwc,flood tables and drip systems were where I used to live and didn't have that problem at that house with chlorinated city water. My environment is not the best, I bring in air from outside so its hot in the summer BUT my VPD is more on point. In the winter its cooler but humidity can sometimes be pretty low. Pretty sure my issue is not my envoronment because couple of people close to me don't have my issue and some of their grows are totally BS.
As for the drying, I put everything on screens after trimming/before trimming sometimes. I tried hanging the plants. I try to keep the humidity at 60% but in the winter my little humidifyer is not cutting it. Although I did succeed in slow drying a crop for a good 10-14 days in the summer time, it didn't help with the smoke.
Don't really think the drying/curing process is my issue cause even when I was younger and had plants outside. I remember we were always impatiently drying our stuff it in just 4 days and it smoked fine.
I believe my problem might be the little bit of iron-oxidizing bacteria in my water or maybe another bacteria. Its the last thing I can really think of. Although when I got my water tested, iron was very low but I am guessing that if the bacteria is in the water, it must thrive after I add all the nutrients in there which includes quite a bit of iron of all sorts..chelates..

Forgot to ask about your water quality. I personally use triple filtered rain water and a UV filter on top of it. Plus the roof has a first flush. Add to that, I use a few things to nix anything biological, viral or fungal as a maintenance.

Honestly, I can't think of many other things it could be, but it's certainly something at your current location. I don't know nearly enough about how bacterial interactions would affect the smoke overall.

Best of luck to you. Hopefully you'll get to the bottom of it.

dramamine · Jan 31, 2021

slownickel said:
The reason is a magnesium excess, that is why it burns bad. Most folks think they have a Mg deficiency, mainly due to low Ca and low P. If Mg is too high in the mix, it can go toxic high! And when Mg is toxic high in the soil, guess what? No Mg in the leaves! Took me years to figure that one out.

Between 1 and 1.2 is a pretty low EC to have a mag excess, no?

ButterflyEffect · Jan 31, 2021

slownickel said:
The reason is a magnesium excess, that is why it burns bad. Most folks think they have a Mg deficiency, mainly due to low Ca and low P. If Mg is too high in the mix, it can go toxic high! And when Mg is toxic high in the soil, guess what? No Mg in the leaves! Took me years to figure that one out.

I don't know Slow. What you're saying is accurate but he's used a multitude of different feed systems and all different types of methods of growing. All with the same result. He has mentioned this was not happening at a prior location with a chlorinated water source. Plus, I believe he's soilless currently.

little-soldier · Feb 1, 2021

I got my water tested and everything was ok besides the fact that the ppm were 90 and about 50 ppm of that is calcium. They recommend no more than 50 ppm so they suggested I get an RO filter which I did but like I said before, it didnt help my case. Check out my previous posts I have posted the water analysis if you really want to look into it.

Thx but I've been trying to get to the bottom of it for over 3 years now. I just purchased some Physan 20. I'm planning on doing an entire grow with it and see if it fixes my problem. I tried chlorine before but it evaporates after a few hours but NOT PHYSAN.

I was wondering though.. Is it possible that a defficiency in a macro or micro nutrient can cause the weed to burn black and taste like shit?

Another thing that has always stuck in my mind is when I burned the stems from my first harvest at this house, I had a friend over and when we tossed the stems in the fire, the first thing he mentionned was..Holy shit it looks like IRON BURNING.

SOOOOO my next question is, can iron accumulate in a plant and get stuck in there forever even after flushing 3 freaking weeks with straight water lol. MAN I WISH I WAS A SCIENTIST/CHEMIST/ETC..

IM DOOMED

PS. Sorry for hyjacking your thread its just that everywhere I go hydro shops, everyone I speak to (professionals running legal warehouse), everywhere I post, nobody can figure it out and its DRIVING ME NUTS.

And last, someone mentionned that if you let your medium (coco/promix/etc) dry, the salts will bond and you will never be able to unbond those salts no matter how much you flush BUT I've never heard about it anywhere on the net and trust me I've been ALL over the NET reading this, reading that, articles after articles, threads after threads. Spent countless hours looking around without finding anything. hoping for some GOD to give me a sign before I sell my soul LOL, just kidding.

ButterflyEffect · Feb 1, 2021

little-soldier said:
I got my water tested and everything was ok besides the fact that the ppm were 90 and about 50 ppm of that is calcium. They recommend no more than 50 ppm so they suggested I get an RO filter which I did but like I said before, it didnt help my case. Check out my previous posts I have posted the water analysis if you really want to look into it.

I'll do that and see if anything jumps out at me.

Thx but I've been trying to get to the bottom of it for over 3 years now. I just purchased some Physan 20. I'm planning on doing an entire grow with it and see if it fixes my problem. I tried chlorine before but it evaporates after a few hours but NOT PHYSAN.

I've been battling a ton of little things myself. I did finally install a UV filter and that has definitely improved things.

I was wondering though.. Is it possible that a defficiency in a macro or micro nutrient can cause the weed to burn black and taste like shit?

Another thing that has always stuck in my mind is when I burned the stems from my first harvest at this house, I had a friend over and when we tossed the stems in the fire, the first thing he mentionned was..Holy shit it looks like IRON BURNING.

Without having looked at your water report yet, where were your iron levels? Iron bacteria might be a potential culprit, too. Def a possible lead.

SOOOOO my next question is, can iron accumulate in a plant and get stuck in there forever even after flushing 3 freaking weeks with straight water lol. MAN I WISH I WAS A SCIENTIST/CHEMIST/ETC..

IM DOOMED

No doom. Just fight harder. It'll make you a much better grower. Promise.

PS. Sorry for hyjacking your thread its just that everywhere I go hydro shops, everyone I speak to (professionals running legal warehouse), everywhere I post, nobody can figure it out and its DRIVING ME NUTS.

No apologies needed. That's what our community is here for.

And last, someone mentionned that if you let your medium (coco/promix/etc) dry, the salts will bond and you will never be able to unbond those salts no matter how much you flush BUT I've never heard about it anywhere on the net and trust me I've been ALL over the NET reading this, reading that, articles after articles, threads after threads. Spent countless hours looking around without finding anything. hoping for some GOD to give me a sign before I sell my soul LOL, just kidding.

You might be on to something here. I've been running hempys for 3 years now and for a while I was letting them get too dry. I made sure that if they needed feeding twice daily, they got it. It changed everything for me. Understanding your own setup(Lighting & DLI, VPD, Substrate type) and modeling your fertigation to it is key.

little-soldier · Feb 2, 2021

Here is my water test results:

alkalinity (LBS-ALC-402-N) 54 mg/l CaCO3
PH 7.35
Turbidity (LBS-TUR-403-A) a 0.12 UTN
Chloride (cl) (LBS-CHL-412-A) a 2 mg/l
Conductivity (LBS-CON-403-N) 168 uS/cm
color (LBS-COU-401-N) 2 UCV
Hardness (LBS-DUR-403-N) 49 mg/l CaCO3
Iron (Fe) (M-MET-3.0) a 0.01 mg/l
Manganese (Mn) (M-MET-3.0) a 0.0006 mg/l
TDS (MDS) 100.8 ppm

I am going to look around and see if companies in my area can test root samples..

little-soldier · Feb 2, 2021

What were the downside of letting your hempy go dry? Did you notice the buds were not burning properly, lack of taste or was it simply showing weird defficiencies affecting the yield.

ButterflyEffect · Feb 2, 2021

little-soldier said:
Here is my water test results:

alkalinity (LBS-ALC-402-N) 54 mg/l CaCO3
PH 7.35
Turbidity (LBS-TUR-403-A) a 0.12 UTN
Chloride (cl) (LBS-CHL-412-A) a 2 mg/l
Conductivity (LBS-CON-403-N) 168 uS/cm
color (LBS-COU-401-N) 2 UCV
Hardness (LBS-DUR-403-N) 49 mg/l CaCO3
Iron (Fe) (M-MET-3.0) a 0.01 mg/l
Manganese (Mn) (M-MET-3.0) a 0.0006 mg/l
TDS (MDS) 100.8 ppm

I am going to look around and see if companies in my area can test root samples..

Yeah, I wound up finding it. The way I understand it, Iron and Iron bacteria are different issues that require different methods of control. You have low Iron but no record of testing for the bacteria.

Chlorine is most commonly used to eliminate it but you'd need to run it through RO after that to remove the excess chlorine. Using chlorine you might very well have to have a system to constantly dose the water or it'll just come back.

I don't know for certain that a UV filter will remove it or not. I'm currently looking into it as my personal house may have it. I'll find out when my water test is done in a few weeks.

If this is your issue, it could get costly.

little-soldier · Feb 4, 2021

I found out I had iron bacteria because of the orange stains I get in the shower and toilet bowl if I don't wash them regularly. Even more evidence was the fact that the faucet filter had an orange slime in it. Thats when I looked it up on the internet and found out about it. Also I noticed an oil film floating on top of the water in my reservoir after repeated use of my RO filter. You should have seen the carbon filter when I replaced it. It was SO orange/redish that it actually stained the inside of the plastic filter holing tubes. It also stained the 2 membrane filters. Anyways Its deffinatly iron bactaria and I read an article somewhere where it mentionned that it can dehydrate plant leaves.

Potassium def, or...???

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