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Selfing... how far is too far?

Cakeboy

Feeding the Roos
ICMag Donor
Hi Guys

I was wondering about this because I have noticed a couple instances where the s1's of a strain is reported to kick out superior plants or plants comparable to the cut, but how far can you go with selfing, I mean i never seem to see people saying oh yeah I s5'd this clone and its great, it never seems to go past s2 and not often even that far, so the question is how far can you go. And why don't we go further? is the inbreeding too noticable or does the plant suffer in other ways? I mean I see some say its a way to IBL stuff. If you look at things like Chunky winning that cup with a bagseed, we could already be at s2 or s3 there? what youse think?:)
 

Palindrome

King of Schwag
There would be no reason to keep selfing a plant.

If we can agree that selfing, is polinating it with it's own pollen. You will get a "copy" of itself, no need to do that more then once.

Normaly you get a set of genes from the female and a set of genes from the male, when selfing you basicly splice two of the female gene set's together. The offspring will only carry the genes it got from the selfed plant, no matter how many times you do this, there will alwasy only be the 1 set of genes from the original mom.


IBL is not optained with selfing, it's inbread crossing bro and sisters for many generations. To make a uniform genepool, but there will always be minor differences.
 

Cakeboy

Feeding the Roos
ICMag Donor
Cheers man, yep I agree with the definition, just it seems that many report a diversion of the gene pool in phenotypes from selfing a plant, much the same way the gene pool diverts in the f2 generation. When I have grown out hermy seeds which (i assume) maybe or likely
was a selfed plant there was a big difference in phenotypes from real squat indica looking things to lanky sativa looking plants in the progeny. I am not sue about the copy of the parent in my (very limited lol) experience. I believe the copies are in there but not necessarily are they the norm. Cheers
 

Palindrome

King of Schwag
Cheers man, yep I agree with the definition, just it seems that many report a diversion of the gene pool in phenotypes from selfing a plant, much the same way the gene pool diverts in the f2 generation. When I have grown out hermy seeds which (i assume) maybe or likely
was a selfed plant there was a big difference in phenotypes from real squat indica looking things to lanky sativa looking plants in the progeny. I am not sue about the copy of the parent in my (very limited lol) experience. I believe the copies are in there but not necessarily are they the norm. Cheers

Can't say anything about it, as I wouldn't touch hermis/selfied seeds with a 10 ft pole.

If the pollenation was made in a controlled enviroment, so there is only one plant to pollinate itself. There should be no possibilitys, for new genes.
There are lot's of options for mutations, but that is a totaly different ball game. Leading me back to, I wouldnt touch these with a 10 ft pole.

IMO hermies is trash, and im surpriced when I hear new growers talk about Hermies as something you have to accept now days.

I think the main reason is ppl buying crap seeds, from crap growers, whos pollen chucking and seeling their hyped hack to gullible growers. I have no problem with this, ppl get what they are paying for.
 

Amynamous

Active member
I think part of the question should be, are we dealing with pure strain, a simple hybrid, or a complex hybrid. If you are working with a pure landrace strain, and self it for several generations, then you should continue to get the same genetics. If you are selfing a simple hybrid(A x B), then you can work the the result to obtain the characteristics you want. However, if you are selfing a complicated hybrid(AB x CD), with both dominant and recessive genetics, it becomes extremely difficult to have any control of what the offspring will become. I strongly recommend that anyone doing any breeding take an entry level genetics class at their local university.
 

Palindrome

King of Schwag
I think part of the question should be, are we dealing with pure strain, a simple hybrid, or a complex hybrid. If you are working with a pure landrace strain, and self it for several generations, then you should continue to get the same genetics. If you are selfing a simple hybrid(A x B), then you can work the the result to obtain the characteristics you want. However, if you are selfing a complicated hybrid(AB x CD), with both dominant and recessive genetics, it becomes extremely difficult to have any control of what the offspring will become. I strongly recommend that anyone doing any breeding take an entry level genetics class at their local university.

Why do you think it matters if it's a hybrid or not, when your selfing it?

The Dom/res genes should be the same, as we split the femlae's DNA and force it replicate with it self.
Where normal you will get ½ the DNA from the female, and the other ½ from the male. When selfing you force a female, to make male pollen. At that point, she replicates her own DNA and the other ½ will be identical with the first ½.
Any changes will be due to mutations, but if that is good or bad to work with I have no experiance. I would imagin it's hard to stabalize, personally I have always discarded anything with any hermi treats.
 

theJointedOne

Active member
Veteran
Hi Guys

I was wondering about this because I have noticed a couple instances where the s1's of a strain is reported to kick out superior plants or plants comparable to the cut, but how far can you go with selfing, I mean i never seem to see people saying oh yeah I s5'd this clone and its great, it never seems to go past s2 and not often even that far, so the question is how far can you go. And why don't we go further? is the inbreeding too noticable or does the plant suffer in other ways? I mean I see some say its a way to IBL stuff. If you look at things like Chunky winning that cup with a bagseed, we could already be at s2 or s3 there? what youse think?:)

Although not active much on icmag, member "Nspecta" who runs "Humboldt CSI seeds" im sure would love to entertain your topic, you can find him nowadays on instagram on his companies page. Id be interested to hear what he says i you ask him.
 
Why do you think it matters if it's a hybrid or not, when your selfing it?

The Dom/res genes should be the same, as we split the femlae's DNA and force it replicate with it self.
Where normal you will get ½ the DNA from the female, and the other ½ from the male. When selfing you force a female, to make male pollen. At that point, she replicates her own DNA and the other ½ will be identical with the first ½.
Any changes will be due to mutations, but if that is good or bad to work with I have no experiance. I would imagin it's hard to stabalize, personally I have always discarded anything with any hermi treats.

Yeah, this isn’t true. Recombination still occurs in an S1. If you’re selfing a true F1 created from disparate inbred lines, an S1 breeding would produce results very similar to an F2 breeding between siblings.

A lot of people think S1’s are a copy of the mother, or are highly inbred. With how plentiful hybrids are, S1’s can show a lot of variation.

Also, the downside of selfing is eventually the lack of genetic diversity. The same exact problems will occur in a highly inbred line. I always find it funny when people complain about S1’s AND complain about the lack of inbred lines. Both can result in problematic inbreeding. Why they believe it’s beneficial for one but detrimental for the other just belies a lack of understanding of genetics.
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Hi Guys

I was wondering about this because I have noticed a couple instances where the s1's of a strain is reported to kick out superior plants or plants comparable to the cut, but how far can you go with selfing, I mean i never seem to see people saying oh yeah I s5'd this clone and its great, it never seems to go past s2 and not often even that far, so the question is how far can you go. And why don't we go further? is the inbreeding too noticable or does the plant suffer in other ways? I mean I see some say its a way to IBL stuff. If you look at things like Chunky winning that cup with a bagseed, we could already be at s2 or s3 there? what youse think?:)


Every time you self a plant you literally loose half of the genetic code.
From an F1 for example...
S1=50% of the original genetics
S2=25% of the original genetics
S3=12.5% of the original genetics
S4=6.25% of the original genetics
S5-3.125% of the original genetics


This is not a way to go about breeding IBLs, IMO. Not only do you loose the bad genes, you loose the good ones as well.
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Cheers man, yep I agree with the definition, just it seems that many report a diversion of the gene pool in phenotypes from selfing a plant, much the same way the gene pool diverts in the f2 generation. When I have grown out hermy seeds which (i assume) maybe or likely
was a selfed plant there was a big difference in phenotypes from real squat indica looking things to lanky sativa looking plants in the progeny. I am not sue about the copy of the parent in my (very limited lol) experience. I believe the copies are in there but not necessarily are they the norm. Cheers


Selfing will show what is hidden in a gene pool and I believe that is what you are experiencing with your observations of the different plants from S1.
The huge variation in plant types shows that the line (so to speak) is extremely unstable for any given traits.
 

Palindrome

King of Schwag
Yeah, this isn’t true. Recombination still occurs in an S1. If you’re selfing a true F1 created from disparate inbred lines, an S1 breeding would produce results very similar to an F2 breeding between siblings.

A lot of people think S1’s are a copy of the mother, or are highly inbred. With how plentiful hybrids are, S1’s can show a lot of variation.

Also, the downside of selfing is eventually the lack of genetic diversity. The same exact problems will occur in a highly inbred line. I always find it funny when people complain about S1’s AND complain about the lack of inbred lines. Both can result in problematic inbreeding. Why they believe it’s beneficial for one but detrimental for the other just belies a lack of understanding of genetics.


I was under the impression, that when you chemicaly force the plant to make pollen, your recombinations was considered "mutations" as they arent naturaly occuring.
 

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Why do you think it matters if it's a hybrid or not, when your selfing it?

The Dom/res genes should be the same, as we split the femlae's DNA and force it replicate with it self.
Where normal you will get ½ the DNA from the female, and the other ½ from the male. When selfing you force a female, to make male pollen. At that point, she replicates her own DNA and the other ½ will be identical with the first ½.
Any changes will be due to mutations, but if that is good or bad to work with I have no experiance. I would imagin it's hard to stabalize, personally I have always discarded anything with any hermi treats.


Simply put...
Selfing unstable genetics will result in unstable genetics.
A selfed plant literally has half the genes it started with.


DNA is like a zipper... There are two halves... Neither half represents the other half. If both halves were the same there would be zero variation within that particular line and be considered stable. Upon DNA recombination two whole zippers are opened up and combined, throwing one of the zippers in the trash and keeping one.
Both good traits and bad traits are being thrown out. Not all genes are kept in tact.
Hope this makes sensi to yall.
 

ReikoX

Knight of the BlackSvn
Thank you, for bringing this up. Most people think the S1 is a copy.

SkunkmanSam claims to have done several generations of selfing. He said vigor went down rapidly and eventually ended up sterile.

Chimera uses selfing as a tool to get an idea of what recessive genes may be hidden in a cultivar.
 

zif

Well-known member
Veteran
It’s useful to keep in mind that your goal/target matters.

If a trait depends on a single locus, then you can easily work out what happens with selfing:

1) The original plant may be homozygous, in which case, for that trait, selfing once and selfing a hundred times will be the same. S1 and done (for that trait)!

2) Alternatively, the parent may be heterozygous, in which case, for that trait, 1/2 of the offspring will be heterozygous, while 1/2 will be homozygous. Select and self a homozygous individual, and no further selfing will change the trait (S2 is as far as you *need* to go). Select and self a heterozygous individual, though, and you’re right back at (2).

Traits that depend on a few loci lead to more combinations to sift, but ‘fixing’ those traits follows the same pattern.

Traits that depend upon lots of loci (vigor or fertility, for example) probably won’t love the increasing homozygosity that comes from generations of selfing, and may be better attacked through selective outcrossing (e.g., RRS or other F1 development schemes). This includes everything that is background to your goal in selfing the plant, which is why people rarely go beyond S4 or S5 even if they have otherwise good reasons to do so.
 
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igrowone

Well-known member
Veteran
Thank you, for bringing this up. Most people think the S1 is a copy.

SkunkmanSam claims to have done several generations of selfing. He said vigor went down rapidly and eventually ended up sterile.

Chimera uses selfing as a tool to get an idea of what recessive genes may be hidden in a cultivar.

i saw some posts about just that, think it may have S6 was as far he took it
thing about selfing, each generation tends to get weaker, less vigorous, and lower yielding
till eventually, kaput! - i would think, haven't taken it that far myself
 

xinox

Member
Hi,


I read some wrong info on that thread, so i have to correct you with my biologist's ignorance :biggrin:

Also sorry for my english if it seems a little poor.



Some here seems to not understand the process of meiosis. Cannabis, like us, possess 2 pair of chromosome and when the plant will create it's reproductive structures, she will use meiosis instead of mitosis to create a cell will only one pair of chromosome, which will recombine the chromosomes randomly. So for exemple, the chromosome you find in a pollen have nothing



If you want to speak as a percentage of the overall genome that you lost, it's between 0% and 50%. Of course 0% is the exact copy of the mother but it's extremely rare because cannabis have thousand of genes and again meiosis recombine randomly.



Also as it was noted, it's pretty similar to F2 but in more aggressive fashion, because it's the best way to reduce gene diversity. So you will get pheno with recessive trait more easily.


In fact no breeding process is bad, it's just that you need to know what you are doing. If you take a plant that if a big F1 of many other F1, your S1 will reveal many pheno, but it's also the opportunity to eliminate trait you don't desire if your selection is right. The problem of course if the decrease of diversity which can reduce the vigor, so in my point of view S1 are great to quickly and more easily inbred a line, purify it from the trait you don't want, in the view of making crosses to restore hybrid vigor.
 

xinox

Member
Hello again,
It's late so their is a little bug in my post :


Some here seems to not understand the process of meiosis. Cannabis, like us, possess 2 pair of chromosome (2n) and when the plant will create it's reproductive structures, she will use meiosis instead of mitosis to create a cell will only one pair of chromosome (1n), which will recombine the chromosomes randomly. So for exemple, the chromosome you find in a pollen is not similar to the two chromosome you have in the mother plant, it's a mix of the two that is genetically between 0 and 100% (so yes again it could be the same chromosome as in the mother, but it's very rare).
 

Elmer Bud

Genotype Sex Worker AKA strain whore
Veteran
There would be no reason to keep selfing a plant.

If we can agree that selfing, is polinating it with it's own pollen. You will get a "copy" of itself, no need to do that more then once.

Normaly you get a set of genes from the female and a set of genes from the male, when selfing you basicly splice two of the female gene set's together. The offspring will only carry the genes it got from the selfed plant, no matter how many times you do this, there will alwasy only be the 1 set of genes from the original mom.


IBL is not optained with selfing, it's inbread crossing bro and sisters for many generations. To make a uniform genepool, but there will always be minor differences.

G `day P

Nah ,
If its highly inbred maybe .

S1s of Hybrids show 1:2:1 ratio . How many seeds do you need to start to see the ratios ? How long is a piece of string ?

S1 is a way to test and see how stable a clone is before further breeding .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 
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