Neem Meal Soil Additive Question

Douglas.Curtis said:

So angry. I hope you get better some day. I've read too much hate from you today already, not going to read this one.

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so this message you left me with your neg rep:

Haven't you noticed by now... nobody gives a shit I've been banned before. Quite a few of us have been banned before. LOL

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shows how disingenuous you are, i gave you plenty of opportunities to own up to being banned and every time you ignored it...

it is not 'hate' you are reading...it's the truth...and YOU hate it...

project your feelings on to me as much as you like...it's the internet and can't hurt my feelings...

It's interesting to watch the effects of aza on people. Over and over I've witnessed other people use tainted cannabis and watched as the symptoms appeared and grew in size. The person swears there isn't an issue, but...


As the days go on, they begin mentioning nausea in the mornings, their injury pain levels increase, and their digestion slows. As they continue to use it, the complaining gets louder. You point out it's the neem/aza issue and they don't believe you. The situation gets worse over the next week or so and then, if they have an H.Pylori infection, a bit of wrong food can set off the cyclical vomiting.


Switch them to clean cannabis and they begin feeling better in minutes. Some charcoal pills, no aza and clean cannabis for a week and the symptoms go away.


I've watched this happen with dozens of people for quite a few years now. Nobody is going to convince me neem/aza is "ok" for people when it comes to cannabis. lol Neem/aza does not break down inside cannabis like it does on the outside of fruits and vegetables. Live with it. (No Ozzie, I didn't read your filth)

"A lot of organic farmers who are well intentioned are using these pesticides because they're on approved lists of what can be used and are OMRI certified," says Alec Dixon, co-founder of SC Laboratories in California. "The most important thing to recognize is the way people are using these pesticides. Even organic pesticides can be applied improperly." At face value, azadirachtin might be no more harmful than other types of horticultural oils like rosemary or peppermint, he adds, but growers still need to use them cautiously. "If they're using these products late into the flowering cycle, a few weeks leading up to harvest, there's a guarantee that you're leaving residue behind on the flower."
And the build up of that residual azadirachtin in heavy smokers might cause cannabis hyperemesis syndrome — but we don't know for sure. Correlation doesn’t necessarily mean causation, Dixon points out.
In 2013, an acute case of neem oil toxicity was documented in the Indian Journal of Critical Care Medicine. Among other symptoms, the patient suffered from nausea and vomiting. Other cases of poisoning have since been reported in India, where neem is widely used.
Traditionally, neem has been used to treat a variety of health conditions including inflammation, colds, flu, gum disease, heart disease, high blood pressure, pain, athlete's foot, and scabies among others. However, for the small number of people who are allergic or sensitive to neem, it doesn't come without side effects, such as abnormal heart rhythms, low blood pressure, anemia, cardiac arrest, loose stools, liver damage, seizures, or vomiting. These go above and beyond the basic symptoms of cannabis hyperemesis syndrome.




Some argue that azadirachtin poisoning and cannabis hyperemesis are completely different phenomena.
"It doesn't make any physiological sense that those two would be linked together," says Dr. Jeffrey Raber, founder of the Werc Shop, a lab testing facility in Los Angeles. "You'd be able to see the same syndrome without the cannabinoids." Raber describes cannabis hyperemesis syndrome as an overactivation of the body's endocannabinoid system. "It's saying, ‘Get this out of me’," he says. "We've been able to see people who had the syndrome mitigated through the reintroduction of terpenes and fewer cannabinoids."


Moreover, azadirachtin was introduced to the market well before cannabis hyperemesis syndrome was first documented. The EPA first registered azadirachtin for use on food crops in 1990, according to Murray Isman, University of British Columbia professor of entomology and toxicology, with a specialty in natural pesticide botanicals. For decades now, it's been used extensively on food crops throughout North America, Europe, the Caribbean, and Sub-Saharan Africa. The California Department of Pesticide Registration, for instance, published that nearly 4,000 pounds of azadirachtin were applied to crops in 2014, including 1,000 pounds on strawberries and 440 pounds on lettuce.
"It's probably one of the safest pest control products on the market place," says Isman. "I have never heard of a single case of azadirachtin poisoning in a human in the U.S." Azadirachtin itself is a triterpene chemical, Isman explains, meaning that it wouldn't be an allergen anyways, since all allergens are proteins and peptides.
"Having said that, Azamax is 1.2 percent azadirachtin, which means the rest of the formula is solvents and all the other stuff that makes a pesticide a pesticide," Isman adds. "That's not to say there isn't something in all the other stuff that couldn't cause a GI reaction, but it's really unlikely. It's used on food crops all the time."


https://merryjane.com/health/the-curious-case-of-cannnabis-hyperemesis-syndrome

Excellent quotes, thank you.

merryjane.com said:

"If they're using these products late into the flowering cycle, a few weeks leading up to harvest, there's a guarantee that you're leaving residue behind on the flower."

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My experiments say it's possible for it to remain in cannabis up to 80 days or more, with both root drench and spraying methods used at week 2 of flower."

merryjane.com said:

You'd be able to see the same syndrome without the cannabinoids."

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Really? Anyone care to vape some aza and check? I'm not sure if eating neem treated cannabis **which has not been heat treated** has the same effect. All of my experiences with issues have been through heated extracts for edibles or smoked/vaped cannabis products.

There's also the chemical reactions which happen under heat and combination with other chemicals. Have the residues of cannabinoid/aza heat combinations been studied?

merryjane.com said:

Moreover, azadirachtin was introduced to the market well before cannabis hyperemesis syndrome was first documented. The EPA first registered azadirachtin for use on food crops in 1990

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That's odd. I'll have to re-do the research on this. I could have sworn the first CHS started only a few years after aza was registered. Not the same year, but definitely within 5 I think.

merryjane.com said:

according to Murray Isman, University of British Columbia professor of entomology and toxicology, with a specialty in natural pesticide botanicals. For decades now, it's been used extensively on food crops throughout North America, Europe, the Caribbean, and Sub-Saharan Africa. The California Department of Pesticide Registration, for instance, published that nearly 4,000 pounds of azadirachtin were applied to crops in 2014, including 1,000 pounds on strawberries and 440 pounds on lettuce.
"It's probably one of the safest pest control products on the market place," says Isman. "I have never heard of a single case of azadirachtin poisoning in a human in the U.S."

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Yes, simply explained by the difference in how common crops and hyper/dynamic accumulator plants work. Aza applied to strawberries and other fruits and veggies breaks down rather quickly when exposed to light and air.


Cannabis grabs it and holds it. It does not break down quickly within the plant, and it is present at harvest time.

I still wonder if it can end up in the trichomes.

If it's true you say D.C. when you can notice the effects too from dabbing then it's either been sucked into the trichomes or it got extracted also from the plant material during BHO/Co2/... extraction or it might have sprayed on the buds during flowering.

I hope one day tissue testing can be performed to answer these questions.
I think tissue testing might give you the evidence you need D.C. Just a hint.

Cvh said:

I still wonder if it can end up in the trichomes.

If it's true you say D.C. when you can notice the effects too from dabbing then it's either been sucked into the trichomes or it got extracted also from the plant material during BHO/Co2/... extraction or it might have sprayed on the buds during flowering.

I hope one day tissue testing can be performed to answer these questions.
I think tissue testing might give you the evidence you need D.C. Just a hint.

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I'm pretty sure it's in the trichomes, but definitely needs testing. Like being able to use the internet instead of camping out at the library, commonly available testing at low rates is going to be awesome!!


I would want tissue/trich tests for a variety of tests:

Minutely incremented soil drench strengths
Minutely incremented foliar strengths
Regularly incremented meal amendment levels


Test subjects would include:
People with/without known H.Pylori infections
People who have skeletal/muscular damage that pains under tension
Non-cannabis users
Multi-decade cannabis users


Clean grown cannabis for baselines, with extracts and edibles, both heated and non-heated, tainted and clean.


Who works in a lab and is pretty sure they could write out valid study guidelines?

Originally Posted by merryjane.com
Moreover, azadirachtin was introduced to the market well before cannabis hyperemesis syndrome was first documented. The EPA first registered azadirachtin for use on food crops in 1990

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That's odd. I'll have to re-do the research on this. I could have sworn the first CHS started only a few years after aza was registered. Not the same year, but definitely within 5 I think.

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... now the penny may start to drop...

Douglas.Curtis aka TheCleanGame v. 5000 years of agricultural history...

I'm sure if you provided a useful answer or bit of info, someone will quote it.

Pest pressure is different everywhere. Some might be rotating a few different pest treatments or feeding schedule, hopefully some kind of organically approved. If neem works in the soil that's good, I know as a foliar it works ok at least as prevention.

Theres a pretty big difference between neem seed meal/neem-oil and aza-based pesticides like azamax that has much higher concentration of azadirachtin than is found in NSM or neem oil. Alot of people out there spraying or drenching with azamax in flower.

kalopatchkid said:

Theres a pretty big difference between neem seed meal/neem-oil and aza-based pesticides like azamax that has much higher concentration of azadirachtin than is found in NSM or neem oil. Alot of people out there spraying or drenching with azamax in flower.

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I'm actually smoking some outdoor, grown in a garden that's been used for years. The grower used a neem seed meal product in the past, and I can almost tell which year the cannabis was grown when I smoke it.


The more years that passed without using it, the less stomach grumbling and issues I get from it. The particular strain I'm using was from one of the most recent years and seems to be just fine. It took a few years though.


I've used both azamax and azatrol and yes, they're much harder hitting than the neem meal so far.


(Edit: Just realized it would help to know the soil around here is heavily clay based. I'm sure the breakdown time is quicker in soils with a lower clay content. No, I'm still not reading your hate, someone will have to re-post it)

https://merryjane.com/health/the-curious-case-of-cannnabis-hyperemesis-syndrome

Some argue that azadirachtin poisoning and cannabis hyperemesis are completely different phenomena.

"It doesn't make any physiological sense that those two would be linked together," says Dr. Jeffrey Raber, founder of the Werc Shop, a lab testing facility in Los Angeles. "You'd be able to see the same syndrome without the cannabinoids." Raber describes cannabis hyperemesis syndrome as an overactivation of the body's endocannabinoid system. "It's saying, ‘Get this out of me’," he says. "We've been able to see people who had the syndrome mitigated through the reintroduction of terpenes and fewer cannabinoids."

Moreover, azadirachtin was introduced to the market well before cannabis hyperemesis syndrome was first documented. The EPA first registered azadirachtin for use on food crops in 1990, according to Murray Isman, University of British Columbia professor of entomology and toxicology, with a specialty in natural pesticide botanicals. For decades now, it's been used extensively on food crops throughout North America, Europe, the Caribbean, and Sub-Saharan Africa. The California Department of Pesticide Registration, for instance, published that nearly 4,000 pounds of azadirachtin were applied to crops in 2014, including 1,000 pounds on strawberries and 440 pounds on lettuce.

"It's probably one of the safest pest control products on the market place," says Isman. "I have never heard of a single case of azadirachtin poisoning in a human in the U.S." Azadirachtin itself is a triterpene chemical, Isman explains, meaning that it wouldn't be an allergen anyways, since all allergens are proteins and peptides.

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Fuuuuck neeeem what is this the 1800s?

Nothing good comes from India.. Sorry. Swimming in shit with dead bodies: spiritual enlightenment. Imaginary religion and imaginary caste system: culturally enriched by early Europeans temple builders. All neem everything? Highest rate of birth defects in the universe.

Pretty sure it's why every OG in AZ tastes like rancid peanut shells instead of weed. Shit will put bags under your eyes. Like a fuckin Indian.

Did he happen to say anything useful or pleasant? If so, would someone please quote it for me? They are not coming off my ignore list.

This is helpful, shared by a friend. In a few years, once the research has been done, we'll see just how bad cannabis+neem really is. Until then, enjoy these pleasant side effects.

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-577/neem said:

Side Effects & Safety
Neem is POSSIBLY SAFE for most adults when taken by mouth for up to 10 weeks, when applied inside the mouth for up to 6 weeks, or when applied to the skin for up to 2 weeks. When neem is taken in large doses or for long periods of time, it is POSSIBLY UNSAFE. It might harm the kidneys and liver.

Special Precautions & Warnings:

Children: Taking neem seeds or oil by mouth is LIKELY UNSAFE for children. Serious side effects in infants and small children can happen within hours after taking neem oil. These serious side effects include vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, blood disorders, seizures, loss of consciousness, coma, brain disorders, and death.

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: Neem oil and neem bark are LIKELY UNSAFE when taken by mouth during pregnancy. They can cause a miscarriage.

Not enough is known about the safety of need during breast-feeding. Stay on the safe side and avoid use.

“Auto-immune diseases” such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Neem might cause the immune system to become more active. This could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it’s best to avoid using neem.

Diabetes: There is some evidence that neem can lower blood sugar levels and might cause blood sugar to go too low. If you have diabetes and use neem, monitor your blood sugar carefully. It might be necessary to change the dose of your diabetes medication.

Reduced ability to have children (infertility): There is some evidence that neem can harm sperm. It might also reduce fertility in other ways. If you are trying to have children, avoid using neem.

Organ transplant: There is a concern that neem might decrease the effectiveness of medications that are used to prevent organ rejection. Do not use neem if you have had an organ transplant.

Surgery: Neem might lower blood sugar levels. There is a concern that it might interfere with blood sugar control during and after surgery. Stop using neem at least 2 weeks before a scheduled surgery.

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Douglas.Curtis said:

This is helpful, shared by a friend. In a few years, once the research has been done, we'll see just how bad cannabis+neem really is. Until then, enjoy these pleasant side effects.

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gee you're a funny bugger....

Overview Information
Neem is a tree. The bark, leaves, and seeds are used to make medicine. Less frequently, the root, flower, and fruit are also used.

Neem leaf is used for leprosy, eye disorders, bloody nose, intestinal worms, stomach upset, loss of appetite, skin ulcers, diseases of the heart and blood vessels (cardiovascular disease), fever, diabetes, gum disease (gingivitis), and liver problems. The leaf is also used for birth control and to cause abortions.

The bark is used for malaria, stomach and intestinal ulcers, skin diseases, pain, and fever.

The flower is used for reducing bile, controlling phlegm, and treating intestinal worms.

The fruit is used for hemorrhoids, intestinal worms, urinary tract disorders, bloody nose, phlegm, eye disorders, diabetes, wounds, and leprosy.

Neem twigs are used for cough, asthma, hemorrhoids, intestinal worms, low sperm levels, urinary disorders, and diabetes. People in the tropics sometimes chew neem twigs instead of using toothbrushes, but this can cause illness; neem twigs are often contaminated with fungi within 2 weeks of harvest and should be avoided.

The seed and seed oil are used for leprosy and intestinal worms. They are also used for birth control and to cause abortions.

The stem, root bark, and fruit are used as a tonic and astringent.

Some people apply neem directly to the skin to treat head lice, skin diseases, wounds, and skin ulcers; as a mosquito repellent; and as a skin softener.

Inside the vagina, neem is used for birth control.

Neem is also used as an insecticide.

How does it work?
Neem contains chemicals that might help reduce blood sugar levels, heal ulcers in the digestive tract, prevent conception, kill bacteria and prevent plaque formation in the mouth.

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Dental plaque. Early research suggests that applying neem leaf extract gel to the teeth and gums twice daily for 6 weeks might reduce plaque formation. It also might reduce the number of bacteria in the mouth that can cause plaque. However, using a mouth rinse containing neem extract for 2 weeks does not appear to reduce plaque or gingivitis.

Insect repellant. Early research suggests that applying extract of neem root or leaf to the skin helps repels black flies. Also, applying neem oil cream to the skin seems to protect against some types of mosquitos.

Ulcers. Some research suggests that taking 30-60 mg of neem bark extract twice daily by mouth for 10 weeks helps heal stomach and intestinal ulcers.

Psoriasis. Early research suggests that taking neem extract by mouth for 12 weeks, along with daily sun exposure and the application of a coal tar and salicylic acid cream, reduces the severity of psoriasis symptoms in people.

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from the same website: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-577/neem

please lets have some 'real' evidence....

How about the last post? Anything upbeat, helpful or intuitive worth quoting?

Douglas.Curtis said:

How about the last post? Anything upbeat, helpful or intuitive worth quoting?

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Links and pasted segments.

Neem severely lowered my sperm count. Just add that one to the list. If anyone wants to know what my attitude problem is, it's contaminated Cannabis being sold to sick/down trodden people who aren't getting any better. Thats not Cannabis. Cannabis can do better than what I'm seeing on a massive scale. Neem is a gigantic portion of that problem. It makes absolutely zero sense to use it. And if you cant bother disclosing the shit, a freakin tree nut extract that many people are not only sensitive (perceptive) but literally allergic to , you need an ass whooping. Thats the tough love that got humanity this far speaking. No coddling and handing out cases of first place trophies when it comes to the health of your patients/customers. First you gotta convince them all this shit they use is in the plant. Then the argument is over. I buy weed to smoke weed, nothing else.


Is Cannabis a gateway drug? When I was stuck in Az for 3 years, yes it was. Weed contaminated so bad you can identify the brands of products used but no indication of strain? Or booze? Easy pick.

Hi guys,

Has there been any new evidence regarding neem meal (NOT used as a spray)? Couldn't find anything on the web. I've got Ulcreative Colitis (auto-immune intestine disease) and would really appreciate your input

Have a great day,
Peace

This has been a very informative post. Whether or not there is an actual scientific evidence that neem products cause CHS, for me is irrelevant. The fact that there’s this amount of anecdotal evidence is enough for me.

We spend a lot of time and effort growing our meds, anything that could cause issues should be pointed out, whether it’s speculation or not.

I sometimes use azamax preventatively in veg only.... but if it lingers longer than 80 days some strains may not metabolize it sufficiently.

Ironically enough I have been having some weird issues lately that are extremely on point with the symptoms outlined here.

Coincidentally enough, my last grow I used neem meal in my soil mix. Is it related? I’m not sure but I’m glad DC brought it up, for now I can be aware of it and quite frankly, I’ll probably quit or reduce using it unless absolutely necessary from here on out. Why take the risk?

Great thread, bumping it even though it’s old because I feel this is useful info and good to know.

I was told azamax... when used as a soil drench in veg .... it would be metabolized and cleared by harvest time. Now I’m not so sure.