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Old 05-06-2018, 01:02 AM #1
insidemusic
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Coco noob, completely failed, need help.

Hello all,

I've grown in soil pretty successfully for over 10yrs now, but today I come to you with my tail between my legs. With the help of ICmag i've read and read and read thousands of topics, and the past couple years I've been reading a lot about coco coir. I read the entire coco trees thread twice, and have spent countless hours reading about growing in coco.
So I felt pretty confident giving it a try. After almost two weeks now and half my coco plants dead, and the rest on their way, I need to understand my failure, which I don't have a clue how i could have f'ed up that bad, and it makes me feel pretty stupid because I feel I have a good understanding of the science of growing cannabis.

So, here's what I did:
I germinated 14 seeds of two different strains, 3 "BC Kush" and 11 Copperchem from greenpoint seeds. And put them in rapid rooters. As soon as they sprouted i put them in 3" by 3" pots.

I was only able to find Black Gold's Just Coir, and mixed that 50/50 with perlite. I washed this mix with tapwater until clear, then made a nutrient solution at 250ppm, Sensi Coco A&B, RO water, and let it soak for about an hour. After that I planted the rapid rooters in them.
This is them at 3 days old. The copperchem stretched like crazy.

These are in a room at 80f 60% humidity. Light breeze blowing on the seedlings.
A 180W LED light is hanging 12" above seedling tops.

I let them sit a couple days, the mix never dried out. The first leaves started to droop though, so I watered with a 250ppm solution with RO water.
I was also noticing the rapid rooters were extremely wet, like soggy. And I am betting the RR's were holding to much water. After a couple days I had 3 die on me from damping off.
I think rapid rooters are great for cloning, but seedling don't develop a root mass quickly enough to escape the water logged plug. Usually i plant seeds in soil, and clone using rapid rooters at a 99% success rate.
This is two days later. They are 5 days old here.


Then everything just went south, they wouldn't stand up, I noticed the leaves getting really light green, stems not strengthening, I upped the nute solution to 300ppm then 350ppm. I flushed them and tested runoff at around 350ppm. I had two more copperchem just wilt up and die.
Here is them at 11 days old. 3 BC Kush on the far left, and remaining 6 copperchem.


I dont understand how i have such varied results. One BC Kush is fine, one is super twisted, the other one in the back that looks ok in this photo I checked on today and is pretty much dead like it dampened off. And the remaining copper chems all look like shit.
The best guess i have is that the soaked rapid rooters have caused issues with the stems.
Did I water them too much? I don't see how with 50% perlite.
Is 300 ppm too much/too little for a 7 day old seedling?
Is 50/50 coco perlite not good for seedlings?
Does 50/50 get watered daily? 2x a day? Less?
If the coco medium just doesn't dry out at first, isn't it good to water anyway every couple days to introduce fresh oxygen and nutes?

I am at a loss, this is my worst grow ever, even my very first grow when I was 19 didn't start like this. I mean how hard is it to start some f'ing seedlings!!
Im not giving up on coco, but before i scrap this and try again I would sure love some ideas on how I messed this up so bad.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:12 AM #2
progro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insidemusic View Post
Hello all,

I've grown in soil pretty successfully for over 10yrs now, but today I come to you with my tail between my legs. With the help of ICmag i've read and read and read thousands of topics, and the past couple years I've been reading a lot about coco coir. I read the entire coco trees thread twice, and have spent countless hours reading about growing in coco.
So I felt pretty confident giving it a try. After almost two weeks now and half my coco plants dead, and the rest on their way, I need to understand my failure, which I don't have a clue how i could have f'ed up that bad, and it makes me feel pretty stupid because I feel I have a good understanding of the science of growing cannabis.

So, here's what I did:
I germinated 14 seeds of two different strains, 3 "BC Kush" and 11 Copperchem from greenpoint seeds. And put them in rapid rooters. As soon as they sprouted i put them in 3" by 3" pots.

I was only able to find Black Gold's Just Coir, and mixed that 50/50 with perlite. I washed this mix with tapwater until clear, then made a nutrient solution at 250ppm, Sensi Coco A&B, RO water, and let it soak for about an hour. After that I planted the rapid rooters in them.
This is them at 3 days old. The copperchem stretched like crazy.
View Image
These are in a room at 80f 60% humidity. Light breeze blowing on the seedlings.
A 180W LED light is hanging 12" above seedling tops.

I let them sit a couple days, the mix never dried out. The first leaves started to droop though, so I watered with a 250ppm solution with RO water.
I was also noticing the rapid rooters were extremely wet, like soggy. And I am betting the RR's were holding to much water. After a couple days I had 3 die on me from damping off.
I think rapid rooters are great for cloning, but seedling don't develop a root mass quickly enough to escape the water logged plug. Usually i plant seeds in soil, and clone using rapid rooters at a 99% success rate.
This is two days later. They are 5 days old here.
View Image

Then everything just went south, they wouldn't stand up, I noticed the leaves getting really light green, stems not strengthening, I upped the nute solution to 300ppm then 350ppm. I flushed them and tested runoff at around 350ppm. I had two more copperchem just wilt up and die.
Here is them at 11 days old. 3 BC Kush on the far left, and remaining 6 copperchem.
View Image

I dont understand how i have such varied results. One BC Kush is fine, one is super twisted, the other one in the back that looks ok in this photo I checked on today and is pretty much dead like it dampened off. And the remaining copper chems all look like shit.
The best guess i have is that the soaked rapid rooters have caused issues with the stems.
Did I water them too much? I don't see how with 50% perlite.
Is 300 ppm too much/too little for a 7 day old seedling?
Is 50/50 coco perlite not good for seedlings?
Does 50/50 get watered daily? 2x a day? Less?
If the coco medium just doesn't dry out at first, isn't it good to water anyway every couple days to introduce fresh oxygen and nutes?

I am at a loss, this is my worst grow ever, even my very first grow when I was 19 didn't start like this. I mean how hard is it to start some f'ing seedlings!!
Im not giving up on coco, but before i scrap this and try again I would sure love some ideas on how I messed this up so bad.
That coco coir isn’t any good. That’s not washed or buffered. Gotta use a good quality coir. EC .6-.8 to feed and let them almost dry before feeding again. Overwatering and poor quality coir. Live and learn. Don’t give up. Best of luck mate
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Old 05-06-2018, 03:54 AM #3
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not once did you mention what PH you were feeding them , & i especially ask because you mentioned rinsing the coco & perilite before dropping the cubes in it .
(I was only able to find Black Gold's Just Coir, and mixed that 50/50 with perlite. I washed this mix with tapwater until clear, then made a nutrient solution at 250ppm, Sensi Coco A&B, RO water, and let it soak for about an hour. After that I planted the rapid rooters in them.
This is them at 3 days old. The copperchem stretched like crazy.)

You do realize how important PH is to coco & the nutrients your feeding it right ? 5.8 being the sweet spot & a swing of 5.7 to 6.2 is just as important too . so that ALL the nutrients can be taken in by the plants .

your coco should have been buffered to a EC of .8 EC & a PH of 5.8 before you put any plants in it .
if the coco had any type of buffer in it from the bag , you washed it all away with that rinse . precharge the coco .... not prerinse it !
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Old 05-06-2018, 04:29 AM #4
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Heavy perlite mixes will look moist but can be harmfully dry.

You can plant seeds directly into washed/buffered coir that has been watered with 1.0-1.2EC solution. They adapt to surroundings.

Best to avoid watering daily until you have roots out the bottom of the pot and they feel light on day 2 or 3 from watering.
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Old 05-06-2018, 04:35 AM #5
insidemusic
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Thanks guys for the reply's.
I had a feeling the "just coir" coco wasn't the best, it seems a little thick, not much fiber in it too much pith. I will try to source better coco.
Dansbuds- Sorry the Ph was 5.8 for the soak and the waterings. So I'm confused, isn't soaking it in a nute solution "pre charging" it? I thought with coco you were supposed to rinse it and then soak it in a solution. So you think these problems were because I rinsed the coco before using?
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Old 05-06-2018, 05:31 AM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by insidemusic View Post
Thanks guys for the reply's.
I had a feeling the "just coir" coco wasn't the best, it seems a little thick, not much fiber in it too much pith. I will try to source better coco.
Dansbuds- Sorry the Ph was 5.8 for the soak and the waterings. So I'm confused, isn't soaking it in a nute solution "pre charging" it? I thought with coco you were supposed to rinse it and then soak it in a solution. So you think these problems were because I rinsed the coco before using?
No you did everything right. Rinse and then low ec nutrient. Quality of the coir, overwatering and humidity was the problem. That caused the damping off etc. would’ve been a lot of Na in that coco
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:44 AM #7
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What they said.
I like to let them get much bigger in the rapid rooter.
Use a CFL or T5 light for first 30 days.
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Old 06-26-2018, 05:45 PM #8
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Oh, that sucks. But I guess your story will be helpful for others.
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:04 PM #9
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Canna coco is pre charged with Trichoderma

Ditch the perlite
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:20 PM #10
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The temp is 80F, a fan is blowing, the light is 12" away and the plants are in 50/50 coco perlite mix that NEVER dried out?

Are your containers sitting on top of a pool of water?

Something isn't right about that.

In those small containers, with that mix and those environmental parameters, you should be able to add a little bit of water almost every day.

And as far as the crazy stretch, there are two factors at play: either the light is too far away OR if you're turning the light off, the temperature difference from day (80F) to night (??) is way too large.

And DansBuds, why are you telling a person with a few day old seedlings to swing the pH? They don't need to swing the pH. The plants are an inch tall with one leaf set. You are recommending a massive over complication that's only going to give the grower ph anxiety. It's RO water. As long as the PH is pretty close to the sweet spot, it's all good.
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