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Maximizing efficiency with hash oil edibles?

jd4083

Active member
Veteran
My bread and butter in terms of edibles is my world-famous space cookies (well, okay, maybe it's just famous in my circle :comfort: ), and for the longest time I've been doing them as simply as I can just because of the volume of cookies I have typically put out when I go on a baking kick every few weeks. My process is this to a t:

1.) Prepare oil - was doing BHO for a while, but after running a few zips per day through a rig that only holds roughly 10g, I got pretty tired of spending the time and money on butane, so I went to quick wash acetone as per the suggestion of an ICM member (can't remember exactly who - Lazyman perhaps? thanks whoever it was)

Yield was great and quality was almost on par with the BHO, but I found it difficult to consistently obtain "lab-quality" acetone, and I wasn't about to use the home depot stuff. So now, after all the crap I talked about QWISO over the years, that's what I'm back to doing. So, anyways, I make the hash...then...

2.) After scraping the oil, I melt my butter with the hash oil in the same pyrex pan over a double boiler, set in an electric griddle with the dial just under 250 degrees (F), with about 2 inches of water in it. I figure when all is said and done, the temperature of the butter/oil in the pyrex dish is probably right around 225-230 degrees, which as far as I know is within the 'safe zone' - right?

3.) After thoroughly combining and ensuring that the oil is completely melted and dispersed throughout the butter, I let it cool to room temp and then go about my business, creaming the hash butter with the sugar as per any normal cookie recipe.


These things have always been deadly as hell, but I feel like I could be doing something more to really stretch that oil out. Lately I've been doing about 2.0g grade B+/A- oil (if I had to grade it, anyways) per dozen cookies, and while I am very satisfied with the potency of the results, I still have the occasional friend or family member who claims that they just aren't affected by eating one, two, or five of the things.

So I guess I have a couple of questions that I would love some thoughts on from the experienced oil/edible crowd:

1.) First and foremost, why is it that edibles seem to affect some people so little while the very same cookies from the very same batch lay me the fuck out? This is even stranger when you consider that I smoke about 10-12g of top shelf herb on a slow day and my tolerance is ridiculous -- the people who say that they don't feel it smoke maybe a half gram per day maximum, so their tolerance is practically non-existent. What gives?

2.) What else could I be doing to increase either the potency or overall efficacy of my hash oil edibles? Would decarbing the herb prior to making the oil help or hurt? How about decarbing the oil itself, or has that already occurred simply via the process of making the oil in the first place?


Make sure you type real slowly and clearly, because apparently I haven't learned shit over the last decade or so :laughing:
 
C

CheifnBud2

Seems there is nothing wrong with your process.

As for the cookies not laying someone out, tell them to eat them on an empty stomach, and don't smoke until it kicks in.

If weed is smoked before a cookie is eaten, then surely the cookies subtle effects will not be noticed as profoundly as they would be had the not been smoked.
 

jd4083

Active member
Veteran
Have tried that as well as the whole eating a light meal ~45 minutes before eating the space cookies as well, as per a suggestion I read a long time ago on this forum I believe. Either way I do it I get fucked up, but regardless of what a couple of people try they claim they just don't feel anything. It should be noted that these folks dont have much experience with edibles, so maybe they just don't notice the nuanced high of an edible versus smoking? I dunno, but it annoys the shit outta me and I wish I could understand it.
 

geeker

Member
maybe it's not an issue of potency, but an issue of just thinking they're getting sleepy? are the cookies desert? i know that personally, edibles give me by far one of the laziest highs i've ever had.

as for the decarb, if i'm not mistaken, that happened as you melted it into the butter. if you "need" to make them more potent, well that's easy, use more oil! :tongue:
 

jd4083

Active member
Veteran
maybe it's not an issue of potency, but an issue of just thinking they're getting sleepy? are the cookies desert?

as for the decarb, if i'm not mistaken, that happened as you melted it into the butter. if you "need" to make them more potent, well thats easy, use more oil! :tongue:

That's actually exactly the term they used...said it just made them feel tired, not really stoned. Now me personally, I don't have the foggiest fucking idea how they could not feel stoned, as when I eat one I always wake up with one hand in a bag of snack food, feeling like I got in a bar fight and drank a fifth the night before.
 

m314

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Edibles have always felt strong to me too. I think some people just absorb the cannabinoids from food differently than others. The bioavailability might be close to 100% for me, but someone with a different digestive system might absorb less.

You could try adding lecithin when you melt the oil with the butter. It adds a rich texture without changing the flavor. More importantly, it improves bioavailability especially with people who don't easily digest fats.

I don't think this will make a difference, but you could try a little experiment. Take your buds (all the same potency) and split them into 2 batches. Decarb one batch before doing the oil extraction. Make 2 batches of cookies, one with the decarbed bud oil and the other with the regular oil. Test and compare results.
 

zymos

Jammin'!
Veteran
2.) After scraping the oil, I melt my butter with the hash oil in the same pyrex pan over a double boiler, set in an electric griddle with the dial just under 250 degrees (F), with about 2 inches of water in it. I figure when all is said and done, the temperature of the butter/oil in the pyrex dish is probably right around 225-230 degrees, which as far as I know is within the 'safe zone' - right?

If you are heating over a double boiler, you are not heating the oil and butter much above the boiling point of water, even if you set your griddle to 250.

Not that it matters, cause you are baking the cookies anyway (I'm assuming).
 

jd4083

Active member
Veteran
Edibles have always felt strong to me too. I think some people just absorb the cannabinoids from food differently than others. The bioavailability might be close to 100% for me, but someone with a different digestive system might absorb less.

You could try adding lecithin when you melt the oil with the butter. It adds a rich texture without changing the flavor. More importantly, it improves bioavailability especially with people who don't easily digest fats.

I don't think this will make a difference, but you could try a little experiment. Take your buds (all the same potency) and split them into 2 batches. Decarb one batch before doing the oil extraction. Make 2 batches of cookies, one with the decarbed bud oil and the other with the regular oil. Test and compare results.

I think I'll do this next round. After eating 1.5 of the cookies I made last night I passed the ever-loving fuck OUT, so obviously I did something right with that batch. :laughing:

The thing that makes me wonder is this: when you make hash oil, you can pretty much melt that oil into your coffee or even just eat a big chunk and it'll put ya down. Does this mean that it has been decarbed already, or is this another process entirely?
If you are heating over a double boiler, you are not heating the oil and butter much above the boiling point of water, even if you set your griddle to 250.

Not that it matters, cause you are baking the cookies anyway (I'm assuming).

good points all around...lol

fair 'nuff

will post more when I try a new experiment the next time :tiphat:
 

CannaBunkerMan

Enormous Member
Veteran
I need to eat at least a gram of oil/keif/hash to feel anything, 2 grams would be the equivelent of putting back a 6-pack.
 

CannaBunkerMan

Enormous Member
Veteran
wow, that's nuts...how much do you smoke per day man?

Not a ton, if I smoke the same keif/hash/oil (I've tried all many times), the same gram would last me 3 or 4 days. I smoke about an ounce a month. For some reason, I'm immune to edibles. I always need to eat 5 to 10 times as much as most of the people I know.

Come to think of it, I'm the same way with Pharma pills. Oh, I weigh 250 lbs. That might have something to do with it.
 

jd4083

Active member
Veteran
very odd...I'm a pretty big guy myself, 6'0 ~210lb, and my tolerance is pretty high...

must just be a physiological thing with the receptors, huh?
 
great thread 5stars

great thread 5stars

glad to see this thread. i just had two back to back (no pun intd) spinal fusion surgurys.

im a fan of the earl myself, have some isomerized oil that ive been microwaving with pepperoni, with good results. but i only tried a couple times, got alot of pk's i like so....

hard to type in bed sideways,lol. but thanks for starting a great thread.
ill contribute as i try again.

oh, just in my opinion, if you want to make a edible to floor those who have higher tolerances to eating cannabis, use a animal fat rather than a plant based oil. like 85% lean beef fryed with the hash oil, then mixed with the a spagetti sauce, let sit in fridge for a week.
i use to make that years ago with plant material rather than oil, was way to strong! couldnt even drive.

to be honest i know very little about edibles, always wanted to make "bang latte", heard alot about it....

later, moresntoil:)
 

m314

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
The thing that makes me wonder is this: when you make hash oil, you can pretty much melt that oil into your coffee or even just eat a big chunk and it'll put ya down. Does this mean that it has been decarbed already, or is this another process entirely?

I'm not sure about the whole decarbing process. I understand what people say about converting THCA to THC, but I've been getting high for years without having to heat anything. I dry and cure my buds, trim, and even fan leaves. After the curing process, I sometimes use the trim and fan leaves to make green dragon. I've made lots of strong batches of green dragon where the plant material was never heated.

Just recently I've tried a few experiments where I decarb the leaves and trim before making green dragon. I didn't really notice a difference in potency either way. Some people claim that decarbing makes their stuff more than twice as potent, though. I don't know if that's from a difference in our plant material or from a difference in how we metabolize the extracted cannabinoids. Maybe the curing process makes the decarb step unnecessary.
 

m314

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
oh, just in my opinion, if you want to make a edible to floor those who have higher tolerances to eating cannabis, use a animal fat rather than a plant based oil. like 85% lean beef fryed with the hash oil, then mixed with the a spagetti sauce, let sit in fridge for a week.
i use to make that years ago with plant material rather than oil, was way to strong! couldnt even drive.

to be honest i know very little about edibles, always wanted to make "bang latte", heard alot about it....

I usually use coconut oil to make my capsules along with bud powder, leaf powder, and flour (as filler if needed). I've also made a few batches with bacon grease or butter. The only difference I noticed was how they smell. Opening the bag of bacon pills always made me hungry. Edibles have always affected me strongly, though.

One of my favorite simple recipes is canna-milk, where I just simmer the plant material in whole milk for an hour or so. The milk is great on its own, and even better if you add chocolate, coffee, or other flavorings. Bhang (as far as I know) is just canna-milk with sugar and spices for flavoring.
 
I usually use coconut oil to make my capsules along with bud powder, leaf powder, and flour (as filler if needed). I've also made a few batches with bacon grease or butter. The only difference I noticed was how they smell. Opening the bag of bacon pills always made me hungry. Edibles have always affected me strongly, though.

One of my favorite simple recipes is canna-milk, where I just simmer the plant material in whole milk for an hour or so. The milk is great on its own, and even better if you add chocolate, coffee, or other flavorings. Bhang (as far as I know) is just canna-milk with sugar and spices for flavoring.

Cool, Im wanting to try some capsules. the bacon sounds good, good idea!
and the milk too for that matter, thanks bro

how long do you heat the coconut oil and hash oil together for?
thanks again!
 

m314

Active member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I've only used hash oil for pills a few times. I think it's more efficient to use the whole plant material, unless you have a high tolerance or have problems digesting the plant material. Usually I just dry the buds really well, grind and sift until I get the consistency of powdered sugar, and mix that in with the coconut oil. I also use leaf powder in the mix, and if it's still too strong I add corn starch or flour. I like to make the pill mix so one big one (size 000) is the right strength for my tolerance. A smaller pill (size 0 or 1) is the right dose for my wife.

Usually I mix everything together in a half pint mason jar. I seal the jar and float it in a pot of boiling water. I simmer for a few hours, stirring every once in a while. After that I test for potency and adjust the mix for potency if needed. The mix is the consistency of clay at this point, so filling the gelcaps is easy.
 

Gray Wolf

A Posse ad Esse. From Possibility to realization.
Mentor
ICMag Donor
Veteran
My bread and butter in terms of edibles is my world-famous space cookies (well, okay, maybe it's just famous in my circle :comfort: ), and for the longest time I've been doing them as simply as I can just because of the volume of cookies I have typically put out when I go on a baking kick every few weeks. My process is this to a t:

1.) Prepare oil - was doing BHO for a while, but after running a few zips per day through a rig that only holds roughly 10g, I got pretty tired of spending the time and money on butane, so I went to quick wash acetone as per the suggestion of an ICM member (can't remember exactly who - Lazyman perhaps? thanks whoever it was)

Yield was great and quality was almost on par with the BHO, but I found it difficult to consistently obtain "lab-quality" acetone, and I wasn't about to use the home depot stuff. So now, after all the crap I talked about QWISO over the years, that's what I'm back to doing. So, anyways, I make the hash...then...

2.) After scraping the oil, I melt my butter with the hash oil in the same pyrex pan over a double boiler, set in an electric griddle with the dial just under 250 degrees (F), with about 2 inches of water in it. I figure when all is said and done, the temperature of the butter/oil in the pyrex dish is probably right around 225-230 degrees, which as far as I know is within the 'safe zone' - right?

3.) After thoroughly combining and ensuring that the oil is completely melted and dispersed throughout the butter, I let it cool to room temp and then go about my business, creaming the hash butter with the sugar as per any normal cookie recipe.


These things have always been deadly as hell, but I feel like I could be doing something more to really stretch that oil out. Lately I've been doing about 2.0g grade B+/A- oil (if I had to grade it, anyways) per dozen cookies, and while I am very satisfied with the potency of the results, I still have the occasional friend or family member who claims that they just aren't affected by eating one, two, or five of the things.

So I guess I have a couple of questions that I would love some thoughts on from the experienced oil/edible crowd:

1.) First and foremost, why is it that edibles seem to affect some people so little while the very same cookies from the very same batch lay me the fuck out? This is even stranger when you consider that I smoke about 10-12g of top shelf herb on a slow day and my tolerance is ridiculous -- the people who say that they don't feel it smoke maybe a half gram per day maximum, so their tolerance is practically non-existent. What gives?

2.) What else could I be doing to increase either the potency or overall efficacy of my hash oil edibles? Would decarbing the herb prior to making the oil help or hurt? How about decarbing the oil itself, or has that already occurred simply via the process of making the oil in the first place?


Make sure you type real slowly and clearly, because apparently I haven't learned shit over the last decade or so :laughing:

Hi ya'll!

I think some of the confusion surrounding the effectiveness of decarboxylation, comes from the black and white way it is presented and the way we look at it.

Consider that hash or plant material has cannabinoids in all stages of evolution, instead of just cannabinoids in the acid form. From a THC standpoint, it will have THCA, THC, and CBN, which is the degeneration product of THC.

THC of course produces the euphoria, but the CBN is a sedative and induces sleepiness.

CBD is an analgesic, as well as modifying our THC experience.

The trick using oil in cooking, is that you can't know up front how decarboxylated any given oil already is, and decarboxylation is the total time the plant material and the oil spent under the various temperature curves that it has been subjected to. See attached graph to best understand that keen point (Thanks to Jump).

You will notice from the graph, that the hot short heat cycles achieve the highest THC content, while lower heat cycle turns THC into CBN at closer to the same rate that THCA is converted to THC. The lower heat cycles will generate higher levels of CBN, and never achieve the THC potential of the material.

The peaks of the curves on the decarboxylation graph, reflect about 70% decarboxylation, after which CBN production again exceeds the rate of THC production from the remaining THCA.

There is no question in my own mind, from personal experimentation and from test panels results, that my decarboxylated potions are more orally active than my raw oil potions. I also make potions more sleepy, by fully decarboxylating the oil, instead of stopping at about 70%.

That leads us to the issue of why some folks feel it more than others and the issue of the actual meds aside, we all have different reactions to any drug, because our rates of assimilation and tolerances.

For instance, we all have differing numbers of CB1 and CB2 receptors, for the THC, CBD, and CBN to bind to. As individuals, we also produce differing amounts of endo cannabinoids to compete with the plant cannabinoids, and different uptake rates for our bodies breaking down and flushing the cannabinoids.

Our mitochondria energy rates are all different, as well as hormonal balances, et al, so for instance they give attention deficit folks Ritalin to slow them down to normal tempo, as well as children whom are bouncing off the walls.

Ritalin is of course a central nervous system stimulant, so if you give it to someone with normal body system balances, it will cause them to bounce off the walls.

I usually decarboxylate my oil by setting it in a 250F hot canola oil pot, and cooking it until the barrage of minute C02 bubbles from the decarboxylation process, dramatically drop off. That is the 70% decarboxylation level. From that point, it will continue to get less psycho active and more sedative if you continue to cook it until all C02 bubbles disappear.

I on the other hand I mostly make sublingual's for oral ingestion and don't often make medibles for others, because if they are too tasty, folks more often overdose. Especially if they are toking until the oral dose becomes effective, or worse, also sipping fine wine.
Not a near death experience, but not a pleasant one either.

To your space cake recipe, you didn't say what temperature you cooked the space cakes at, or for how long, but your cooking in the hot butter and then cooking in the oven, may be over decarboxylating.
 

Attachments

  • Decarboxylation graph.pdf
    163.7 KB · Views: 41

titoon29

Travelling Cannagrapher Penguin !
Veteran
Great post Gray Wolf! answers lots of my questions about decarb !!!! thank you so much !
 
thanks GrayWolf

thanks GrayWolf

Hi GrayWolf,

After reading your post it leaves one feeling very humbled. Hard to respond with anything that seems too substantial, lol. :shucks:

I read your post several times, and will read it several more. Im one of those guys that has to read and read again for it to stick. :bashhead:

oh, and the graph helps too.:D

Thanks again for the great info:tiphat:
 
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