Can't Figure Out Plant Issues

Dr.FillDaBlunt · Nov 25, 2020

Hey everyone. I have been dealing with some plant issues recently and I just can't seem to figure out what's going on. The most recent SAP analysis showed I was low in Fe, Mn, Zn.

My vegetative room has (50) Jungle T5 48" lights.

I use organic living soil with a coco base.

CO2- 600ppm

400-500 PAR

Water Temp - 68*

Plant Temp - 79*-82*

Ambient Temp - 80*-82*

At first, I thought there was something wrong with my water. I had my water tested and sure enough, it had some bacteria colonizing in it. However, the testing facility was not able to tell me what specific bacteria it was. I cleaned all my res' and irrigation lines. Waited 1 week and tested the water again and came back clean. So I'm thinking I can start to rule out the water issue, but something in my gut says it can still be something in the water. I do have another water test submitted just to check once again.

I use CaMg every water

Current pH: 6.5 (sometimes it creeps higher to 6.8-6.9 halfway through watering and I have to readjust it.)

After about 4 weeks the plants start to exhibit signs of deficiency/stress. (shown in pics)

I amend my raised beds with BioLive.

I have grown all these strains for YEARS without any issues.

ISSUES:

-The new leaves start to get small

-Yellow/pale

-Eventual purpling

-Blistered look. (The margins in between the veins of the leaves start to literally look like they push out like a blister.)

The odd thing is once I transfer plants to my Bloom room they seem to heal and get better. In my head, they start to recover because they have an abundance of food and can start to eat.

My Bloom room has 90 DE Phantom lights. Grown in 60 gallon No-till Raised Beds.

CO2 - 900 PPM

750-900 PAR

Water Temp - 68*

Plant Temp - 79*-82*

Ambient Temp - 80*-82*

I haven't been feeding the plants anything extra besides what's in the soil. Could the plants be eating so much food it's draining my soil of nutrients within 4 weeks and I need to feed? Do I need to do anything "special" with my fertilizer program and/or pH when using LED's?

PICTURES: The plants in pots are in VEG and the plants in the beds are in BLOOM.

Upon request, I can give any additional info/pics.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Lester Beans · Nov 25, 2020

Looks like your pH is too high considering the amount of coco. Or the suspect water but my guess P def.

Teddybrae · Nov 25, 2020

Except for those two that are bluish and drooping the rest look like they have varying degrees of Mg shortage.
This can be discovered quickly by dissolving some Epsom Salts in a sprayer (one of those used for damping when ironing) and spraying on yr plants. Changes can be seen within hours. Then you might decide to 'cal - mag' yr soil.

So, have you tested soil pH? Not runoff ... test the soil itself. Cheap kits at the hardware.

Dr.FillDaBlunt · Nov 26, 2020

Lester Beans said:
Looks like your pH is too high considering the amount of coco. Or the suspect water but my guess P def.

I am definitely correcting the pH issue. I'm going to start feeding at a lower pH as well 6.2 is my target.

Dr.FillDaBlunt · Nov 26, 2020

Teddybrae said:
Except for those two that are bluish and drooping the rest look like they have varying degrees of Mg shortage.
This can be discovered quickly by dissolving some Epsom Salts in a sprayer (one of those used for damping when ironing) and spraying on yr plants. Changes can be seen within hours. Then you might decide to 'cal - mag' yr soil.

So, have you tested soil pH? Not runoff ... test the soil itself. Cheap kits at the hardware.

What do you think is the issue with the pale/blueish plants?
Soil pH I can test it tomorrow I have a Blue Lab pen. Last time I checked which was probably 2 weeks ago plants were ranging from 6.5- 6.7.

Lester Beans · Nov 26, 2020

Foliar of epsom is a good immediate action, along with a properly ph'd solution of bloom food. Then get that ph in line going forward. They should bounce back for you.

Teddybrae · Nov 26, 2020

the pale/bluish plants are suffering badly from wrong pH, I 'd say.
And I 'm wondering HOW you're checking yr pH? Just in the top of yr soil or further down? I think you need to check it at 4 inches/100 mm deep.

Dr.FillDaBlunt said:
What do you think is the issue with the pale/blueish plants?
Soil pH I can test it tomorrow I have a Blue Lab pen. Last time I checked which was probably 2 weeks ago plants were ranging from 6.5- 6.7.

troutman · Nov 26, 2020

I like using Greensand for iron. Molasses also has iron. :tiphat:

Galvanized nails in water can supply both zinc and iron when they rust.

thailer · Nov 26, 2020

Current pH: 6.5 (sometimes it creeps higher to 6.8-6.9 halfway through watering and I have to readjust it.)

i think if your water's ph was truly adjusted it wouldn't creep up while you're watering. i would prefer to know what the pH is BEFORE you adjust. it sounds like your water is also highly alkaline which explains why something such as citric acid may take a little while of waiting to see if it creeps up as it isn't as strong as other ph down products.

when you irrigate with water that not just a high pH, but also alkaline, it has a lot of calcium carbonate or bicarbonates in it so with each watering, you add more lime to the soil. that is why you're noticing the 4-6 weeks rhythm of symptoms.

i would suggest getting a soil test to see what your soil's true pH is because pens and hardware store testers, i was told are not an accurate way to test the pH for organic soil. i have contaminants in my water which forces me to use RO water for my plants.

you may want to start over with fresh soil as it is difficult to leach lime or bicarbonates from soil and start using RO or adjusting the pH and waiting a bit longer till it doesn't creep up.

Creeperpark · Nov 26, 2020

Plants grown in coco coir need a pH level ranging from 5.5 to 6.3 during veg. (Max). If you drop in the upper 5s slowly your problems will go away. I run 5.5 - 5.8 during veg growth and 6.0 - 6.3 during bloom. High alkalinity can cause a lock out because the receptor sites are blocked. The organic nutrients are more soluble with a lower pH. Also bacteria colonizing can be minimized with an acidic pH.

f-e · Nov 26, 2020

Major signs of Mg imo. Spray just one. You can do the rest later if it works. I wouldn't get carried away with any additional feed with the leaves curling under like that. Doesn't that indicate toxicity?

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 26, 2020

salt damage

salt damage

Dr.FillDaBlunt said:
Hey everyone. I have been dealing with some plant issues recently and I just can't seem to figure out what's going on. The most recent SAP analysis showed I was low in Fe, Mn, Zn.

My vegetative room has (50) Jungle T5 48" lights.

I use organic living soil with a coco base.

CO2- 600ppm

400-500 PAR

Water Temp - 68*

Plant Temp - 79*-82*

Ambient Temp - 80*-82*

At first, I thought there was something wrong with my water. I had my water tested and sure enough, it had some bacteria colonizing in it. However, the testing facility was not able to tell me what specific bacteria it was. I cleaned all my res' and irrigation lines. Waited 1 week and tested the water again and came back clean. So I'm thinking I can start to rule out the water issue, but something in my gut says it can still be something in the water. I do have another water test submitted just to check once again.

I use CaMg every water

Current pH: 6.5 (sometimes it creeps higher to 6.8-6.9 halfway through watering and I have to readjust it.)

After about 4 weeks the plants start to exhibit signs of deficiency/stress. (shown in pics)

I amend my raised beds with BioLive.

I have grown all these strains for YEARS without any issues.

ISSUES:

-The new leaves start to get small

-Yellow/pale

-Eventual purpling

-Blistered look. (The margins in between the veins of the leaves start to literally look like they push out like a blister.)

The odd thing is once I transfer plants to my Bloom room they seem to heal and get better. In my head, they start to recover because they have an abundance of food and can start to eat.

My Bloom room has 90 DE Phantom lights. Grown in 60 gallon No-till Raised Beds.

CO2 - 900 PPM

750-900 PAR

Water Temp - 68*

Plant Temp - 79*-82*

Ambient Temp - 80*-82*

I haven't been feeding the plants anything extra besides what's in the soil. Could the plants be eating so much food it's draining my soil of nutrients within 4 weeks and I need to feed? Do I need to do anything "special" with my fertilizer program and/or pH when using LED's?

PICTURES: The plants in pots are in VEG and the plants in the beds are in BLOOM.

Upon request, I can give any additional info/pics.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

that is DEFICIENCIES because of salt buildup in the medium. no question .
the only solution is to make up a complete 12 mineral solution a d flush out old unbalanced solution with fresh balanced solution. do a runoff test to see EC of water coming out

RockinRobot · Nov 26, 2020

nohnsmith1010 said:
that is DEFICIENCIES because of salt buildup in the medium. no question .
the only solution is to make up a complete 12 mineral solution a d flush out old unbalanced solution with fresh balanced solution. do a runoff test to see EC of water coming out

Explain where the salt buildup comes from when he's in organic soul and plain water with no nutrients?

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 27, 2020

ph rarely an issue in the range of 5 to 7 . it is very little difference in absorption. ph influences nutrient uptake but only by +/- 1 to 15 % . it does not stop uptake and favours some as it changes. ph is the last thing especially in carbon based soiless

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 27, 2020

ph

ph

nohnsmith1010 said:
ph rarely an issue in the range of 5 to 7 . it is very little difference in absorption. ph influences nutrient uptake but only by +/- 1 to 15 % . it does not stop uptake and favours some as it changes. ph is the last thing especially in carbon based soiless

those graphs are not accurate. I was looking for a numbered chart . I personally never check when using pro mix or any spagnum based . in rockwool it was an issue but not acidity, alkalinity and only because of chelates in my feed . chelated minerals are much more absorbable than mineral ion but they drop out above 7.5 and dont come back. mineral ions less absorbable but dont drop out

Hammerhead · Nov 27, 2020

LOL, That looks just like a ph issue IMO. Looks like your in coco?. That's requires a lower PH of 5.8-6.0.. Also your PH should not be changing that fast. I use a ph of 6.5 it will stay that way for about 4 hrs before it starts to drop again. If you using air to mix that also makes the PH change faster. I use a bubbler in my veg drum, In 24 hrs the PH drops to 4.8.

I use in veg

HP PRO MIX

PBP GROW Nutrients

450PPM

PH 6.5
I don't water until the pots are dry. It cant take 2-3 days

Flower

Hydroponic research Dirty Nutrient
1.2ec

ph 6.5
Same feeding routine. If the pots are wet don't feed. After about 2 weeks they start drinking everyday.

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 27, 2020

should be fed daily

should be fed daily

Hammerhead said:
LOL, That looks just like a ph issue IMO. Looks like your in coco?. That's requires a lower PH of 5.8-6.0.. Also your PH should not be changing that fast. I use a ph of 6.5 it will stay that way for about 4 hrs before it starts to drop again. If you using air to mix that also makes the PH change faster. I use a bubbler in my veg drum, In 24 hrs the PH drops to 4.8.

I use in veg

HP PRO MIX

PBP GROW Nutrients

450PPM

PH 6.5
I don't water until the pots are dry. It cant take 2-3 days

Flower

Hydroponic research Dirty Nutrient
1.2ec

ph 6.5
Same feeding routine. If the pots are wet don't feed. After about 2 weeks they start drinking everyday.

what is run off ec? I run promix jp as a hydroponic medium drip fed daily. your EC.is 1.2 .. water until run off and check. my opinion is it will be 2400 or higher

Hammerhead · Nov 27, 2020

nohnsmith1010 said:
what is run off ec? I run promix jp as a hydroponic medium drip fed daily. your EC.is 1.2 .. water until run off and check. my opinion is it will be 2400 or higher

I do not check runoff. There is no need to do that. Only time that's helpful is if your having issues that you do not know how to fix. HP promix has no pre charge of Nutrients. Its similar to hydroponic medium but you grow in it like its soil. Ive been using it for 6 years now. The only time I see issues is when my PH probes fail.

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 28, 2020

salts

salts

RockinRobot said:
Explain where the salt buildup comes from when he's in organic soul and plain water with no nutrients?

minerals in a chem form such as calcium nitrate Ca(NO3)2 are the SAME nitrate as in blood meal compost or worm coatings. it's a nitrate NO3 or ammonium nitrate NH4 such as in ammonium nitrate. the only difference is his they are bonded in the carbon the carbon is just a delivery system. a carrier mechaimsn . the mineral salts are not different. . REGARDLESS of source for the roots to absorb eg itrogen . the nitrogen MUST dissolve into the solution . whether is is calcium nitrate or blood meal the nitrate must be water soluble.
if a medium had too much water soluble nutrient ( any of them) they will burn or lock up other Minerals. the CEC IR CATION EXCHANGE CAPACITY of carbon ( 5he vanderwall forces just line carbon filters) will hold a reasonable amount of excess minerals acting as a buffer but only so much . this will do it whether the feed is a refined chemical or a organic source.

nohnsmith1010 · Nov 28, 2020

always check

always check

Hammerhead said:
I do not check runoff. There is no need to do that. Only time that's helpful is if your having issues that you do not know how to fix. HP promix has no pre charge of Nutrients. Its similar to hydroponic medium but you grow in it like its soil. Ive been using it for 6 years now. The only time I see issues is when my PH probes fail.

cheoking runoff is standard procedure for any system.
plants do not use minerals evenly. not overwatering means every mineral not used is buying up interfering with proper uptake of the rest.
runoff is 5p easy not 4o check. it takes no effort and allows 5ou to notice issues before you see it In the leaf. once you see s leaf issue it is already to late . now you are just putting on bandaid. it better to avoid issues with proper maintenance.

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