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Classification scale for Hermi plant traits

Ganoderma

Ganoderma

Hydronaut
Mentor
Veteran
I have a topic I'd like to propose to the community​

I'm proposing a rating scale to apply to female plants that have a tendency to produce male flowers. There are two possible scales that could be used, one using letters and another using numbers.

I'm leaning towards a 0-5 scale. 0 being no hermi traits/stable female. 5 would be a plant that would be a super hermi.

If going with a letter scale I propose a, F, E, D, C, B, A scale (although the order could be switched around). F would be no hermi traits/stable female, A would be a super hermi. The scale could also go from A to F

Possible minor scale notation could be added onto scale letter or number. This could notate different traits like, the amount of pollen the male flowers, if the plant pollinates it's self or if it tends to also pollinate other plants near/around it.
 
I'mback

I'mback

Comfortably numb!
Nice suggestion that I am going to toss out of the window! Careful/serious breeders will bread it out of them over time. That is what we want, not some lazily created seeds, that may be prone to flipping at a drop of the hat. We have the technology! There is no short cuts towards quality. Just piss poor practices!!!
 
M

mr underhill

Member
I don't see the point and would have to agree with I'mback
On the other hand, while i don't think the sliding scale has any use there are attributes of plants that are worthy to take note of when it comes to male parts showing on female plants.
If any given female pops male parts before the last couple weeks it's either a hermie, or got stressed into it. Not a plant I would want to keep around.
If it lives a perfect stress free life and pops very late male flowers I might keep some of that pollen and see if it produces mostly female offspring. Some keeper varieties do this and is possible some parent stock can be chosen from lines with plants that show the rodelization trait.
But a hermie is a hermie is a hermie and the sliding scale is pointless. No offense meant to the idea though.
 
therevverend

therevverend

Well-known member
Veteran
I agree with the previous posters, that it isn't a question of degrees but whether a plant produces males flowers or not. If it does, at any stage of life, I'm going to cull it.

That said, the best strain I've ever had was a chronic hermie. Even at it's best it would throw out a couple nanners and those nanners would always be viable. I went through pounds of it and every pound would contain at least 10 seeds. Losing this strain was devastating, I'd do anything to have it back.

One of the reasons it's gone is because of the 'kill all hermies' protocol. There were people who just don't want to fuck around with it. We weren't able to breed the herm part out of the strain without changing it to another strain. I believe the herm genes in the strain were SE Asian. So I can see there's some rare cases where you put up with a small amount of seeds to preserve an excellent strain. There are quite a few landrace strains that should be preserved that are chronic herms as well.

Except for these very very few exceptions hermaphrodites are horrible and should be eradicated and selected away from. I haven't had a rogue hermie in a number of years people have been selecting against the genes for a while now. I still saw a few nanners at the end of harvest last year but very few. And I tossed the seeds I'd made on those plants. With all the great strains out there, very little reason to select a hermaphrodite for breeding.
 
Dog Star

Dog Star

Active member
Veteran
There is 2 types of hermis... those who produce balls and others with bannana split..

did anyone ever encounter hermi with both balls under buds and bannanas inside buds in same time??
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Dog Star said:
There is 2 types of hermis... those who produce balls and others with bannana split..

did anyone ever encounter hermi with both balls under buds and bannanas inside buds in same time??
Click to expand...
Yes.

The difference is due to physics. Balls are non-squished and form round. Bananas are balls, either squished or physically altered by the presence of female flowers.

Has anyone found a nanner which was not in a female flower? I haven't. (yet?)


As for classification, it would make more sense to separate by triggers. The triggers I know off hand, for various genetics, are...

Root bound (And I mean, really root bound)
Low pH
Excessive heat
Various light triggers
Cold
Excessive nutrients (element specific?)
Late flowering (damned rhodelization hermies)
Spectrum shifts?

What did I miss?
 
therevverend

therevverend

Well-known member
Veteran
did anyone ever encounter hermi with both balls under buds and bannanas inside buds in same time??
Click to expand...

I have, multiple times. The last one I remember was Bodhi's Dream Beaver. Right before harvest when the days got short and cool it was shooting nanners out a few buds. At the bottom of the plant there were a few hangers off the scraggy little branches at the bottom. Those hangers are hard to spot and when they're on the bottom branches, especially so.

One other thing, Ganoderma, even though we all hate hermies and we're shooting your idea down, don't let us stop you from using it. For strain reports and grow descriptions I can see the usefulness. Even if we want to destroy the things and send them to the deepest layers of hell..
 
I

igrowone

Well-known member
Veteran
what about a 2 symbol arrangement?
1st is a letter and could represent the hermie 'type'
2nd a number which indicates the degree as in original idea
bounce it around, improvements will stick over time
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
igrowone said:
what about a 2 symbol arrangement?
1st is a letter and could represent the hermie 'type'
2nd a number which indicates the degree as in original idea
bounce it around, improvements will stick over time
Click to expand...
:thank you: Makes solid sense to me. I look forward to seeing the final thoughts in use by the community. :)
 
Y

YeetDabs

Member
What would this scale be used for?


I guess, if anything it could be a scale that testers use for feedback to the breeders, but realy all a breeder really needs to know is if a female starts to produce pollen or not.. and perhaps what stresses could have caused it...
 
G

grayeyes

Active member
If you like the strain put in the effort to fix the hermi problem.

A great example of this is Mr. Greengenes Cherry Bomb. Six sprouts no hermies. Either very male or very female.
 
Ganoderma

Ganoderma

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I know that to a lot of folks hermi's are not keepers and they will kill them off. I understand how they feel about hermi plants and where they are coming from. Once upon a time I held the same view, kill all hermi plants. I've culled many Hermi plants over the years

There are many strains today that are now only clone only. There are many of these popular cuttings that have been going around, being passed around for years. Yet some of those are prone to tossing bananas, resulting in some seeds. Some of those strains like, Sour D, GG4 will toss a banana or two and have a seed here or there.

If you live in an area where it's legal, you can buy cuttings at some dispensaries. Wouldn't you want to know if that strain/cutting has any tendencies of tossing any bananas? Would that change your mind on buying that cutting if its one of the hyped strain/cutting that every one wants? Would it matter to you?

A few years back I got cutting from another person here on Icmag. That cutting turned out to be the worst hermi ever. She started tossing full male flowers on the outside of the buds around week 5-6. The male flowers dropped pollen just like a normal male does. She knocked up the plants next to her. All of the seeds where on the outside of the buds, due to how late the male flowers started dropping. She had a real nice taste that other people liked. I didn't keep that plant, but I have a bunch of seeds that I saved from her buds.

The scale can be used for many different uses, the home grower, breeding. If you where buying seeds that have a 10-25% chance of having hermi plants. Wouldn't you like to know if there is a chance of hermi plants and how badly they hermi out. Would you consider that an issue when buying seeds?
 
Ganoderma

Ganoderma

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I just had a couple males that tossed some female flowers. They started going all female at the tops and the male flowers that where being pushed out at the top where bananas.

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MJPassion

MJPassion

Observer
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I don’t recall the author(s) but there already exists a protocol for classification of hermaphroditism in cannabis.
If I recall correctly, the herm trait is classed as 7 or 8 different levels and is determined by the type of flower physically present as well as its location on the plant.
Links have been posted to the study in a few threads here at ICMag but I’m not sure in which threads.

HTH
 
Mr. Greengenes

Mr. Greengenes

Re-incarnated Senior Member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
A great example of this is Mr. Greengenes Cherry Bomb.
Click to expand...

Thanks grayeyes. I basically eliminate all hermies, even 'males with pistils' from any breeding project I'm working on. That said, I did work with some genetics from Laos that, as far as I could tell, had no 'straight' plants at all until I crossed it and began breeding hermies out. It was worth the work because the other traits were lovely. I treated all hermies as kryptonite before the Laos genetics. That project taught me that sometimes we need to be more tolerant to get what we want.

"Give a man a hammer". I always look to the genetic solution for just about everything, but there is no doubt that there are environmental triggers when it comes to hermies. I think we can agree that some plants are easy to stress enough to show intersex, others are much harder. I agree with Douglas. Determining exactly what triggers hermi flowers on any given plant is most important. That way I can tell you, "she's a bit sensitive to excess N during flower".
 
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