So are there any go to landrace breeders left?

I don't see why people shouldn't have access to this beautiful landraces, sorry but it is a good way too spread them everywhere...you can't be sad that there are no landraces left and, at the same time, treating people like criminals just because they sell this actual landraces!!

People like me don't have access to elite clones or pure landraces, so i don(t give a f''ck about who or what, i just don't want to smoke shitty skunks just because some people are too greedy to spread the seeds/cuts for free...If you don't want to share with people the strains, don't share it with your friends, treason always come from trusted people. So if you share it, do it for everybody, or don't

smac17 said:

I don't see why people shouldn't have access to this beautiful landraces, sorry but it is a good way too spread them everywhere...you can't be sad that there are no landraces left and, at the same time, treating people like criminals just because they sell this actual landraces!!

People like me don't have access to elite clones or pure landraces, so i don(t give a f''ck about who or what, i just don't want to smoke shitty skunks just because some people are too greedy to spread the seeds/cuts for free...If you don't want to share with people the strains, don't share it with your friends, treason always come from trusted people. So if you share it, do it for everybody, or don't

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Chill man, the debate here is about decent landrace breeders left bro. So it’s also about breeding ethics and scamming people and customers who doesn't really know a shit about what's really going on. Not about happy customers or growers who want something no matter how.

Of course people should have access to brand new genetics, this is exactly what real breeders do and why growers like Charlie Garcia, Kangativa, 20Thai, Tom Hill, LMN, Rahan, JahGreenLabel, Bushweed or the Collective Vibes have become renowned and respected within the community, because of their talent, dedication and passionate work to preserve and spread brand new interesting genetics from all over the world. This is the kind of people we should really support, the ones who have been dedicating his life to Cannabis breeding or landraces. Not hacks.

And by the way, seeds were actually made available to the public in the past, because Bodhi released the Ethiopian Highland some years ago… he was a Vibes Collective member too, just so you know.

Let’s also remember that in the case of certain people or breeders, they simply have the desire that their strains won't ever be sold or used to make money, but passed freely... this was the case of LMN, same with many other strains from the Collective Vibes.

In fact, all the south american friends who have been posting pics during these past years and helping out to preserve the Ethiopian or Mauritius received them from us totally free of charge, with the only condition they must be preserved and passed in a responsible way, to avoid seeing them bastardized by hacks who just want to speculate with rare genetics and get easy props/cash, unfortunately the've became the standard nowadays.

And remember that if we support hacks and thievery within the scene and the industry, then we will also be automatically un-supporting and harming all the originators or the real and honest breeders who work hard and invest many years in order to release or even simply gift brand new strains or landrace based cultivars. They simply can't stay afloat or compete against scammers and pollen chuckers bastardizing their genetics. So eventually they dissapear from the scene, and nobody else would be able to keep enjoying their gems.

And last but not least, let’s remember that if all this rare strains are still alive for us to enjoy, it's thanks to all this passionate people and breeders who preserved them for years. We owe them much.

Peace.

^ Best post of 2016. Kudos!

What i wanted to say was just that if you're not in the cannabis community, it's very difficult to know all this details of scams, beefs...in my country people are really late in all aspects of cannabis, and we smoke very poors dutch hybrids (ten-fifteen years old strains).

So the work of Ace has an enormous impact because they are the only famous landrace sellers (them and cannabiogen). If everybody could smoke their zamaldelica i swear world would be better .

Their work is very efficient, and it's good for biodiversity of cannabis, even if they stole the strains (if i follow you). But don't they have a good reputation in the community, maybe i missed smthg?

PS: big respect for your knowledge mustafunk i read everything you post

White Buffalo Seeds

White Buffalo Seeds

Hey everyone! I don’t post much here as Instagram has been my go to platform as of late but I want to start being a bigger presence here.
My friend C-Ray of White Buffalo Seeds is doing some amazing work breeding landraces to his proven males. I think he has 3 but I can only remember 2. One is a late nineties Seedsman Haze and the other is a nice Malawi. Him and his partner Vapor are doing some crazy work breeding landraces like of Jamaican Pineapple Skunk, Nigerian, Black Congolese, Malawi Gold, Angola Red, Destroyer x Angola Red/Thai, Columbian Black, Swazi Gold, Namibian, Jotake, etc. They are also doing using some very sativa dominate hybrids like their own Sasquatch, Breeder Steve’s Sweet Skunk and more. The nicest sativas I’ve ever smoked have definitely come out of their garden.
Right now you can purchase their Genetics for very reasonable prices ($50 per pack of 10) and many people are already getting stellar results. I would highly recommend anyone interested in purchasing some new and exciting Sativas to hit them up on IG.

Mustafunk said:

Really? so why they should be made available to the public? is your home available to the public too? or even your wife? C'mon man, there are loads of strains or clones that aren't available to the public.

It should be the breeders who sourced and have been breeding them legitimately for years, the ones who should decide whether if they want to make them available and sell them (for example joint project between CBG/USC for releasing Double Jamaican, with the Lambsbread from Vibes Co) on them or if they simply prefer to keep gifting them out, like it was done until now, no money involved. That's something to be respected, while shitting on other people's works, trust and generosity is something really miserable.

That's the problem with capitalists... they fucking believe everything has a price and can be bought with money. Pretty sad to be honest and that's the issue nowadays, too many people trying to transform the plant into cash without any ethics.

But that's not the debate here, the debate is about a certain case about stealing stuff and scamming people. The truth will eventually come out so everyone knows, although "fanboys gonna hate".

Peace.

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I have read a lot of your posts and I respect you and your efforts, but I take a completely different approach to ownership of landrace varieties. In your logic, even you and charlie should not have access to any landrace, because they belong to the growers of the native fields where they came from. How dare you take their seeds and grow them in your home location ! LOL

No, in my opinion the fact that these are spread around to people that care about them (regardless of how many people receive them with greedy intentions or disrespect) this is how we as a global community can access these things from the past, now in the present. Because reproductions and IBL twists are taken on these old varieties for us to enjoy in these more modern times.

Greedily guarding varieties from 'the man' or 'corporate greed' is just paranoia. You don't lose anything from sharing a variety. You can still grow it and smoke it yourself. The only thing you 'lose' is the fact that there are very few people with a rare variety and the more people you give it to the less rare it becomes and you don't get to feel so special for having this rare thing. But that's also greed.

I share my genetics with anyone who has something interesting to trade. I would share them free if I didn't have to absorb postal costs. Attitudes need to change.

CanadaDank said:

Hey everyone! I don’t post much here as Instagram has been my go to platform as of late but I want to start being a bigger presence here.
My friend C-Ray of White Buffalo Seeds is doing some amazing work breeding landraces to his proven males. I think he has 3 but I can only remember 2. One is a late nineties Seedsman Haze and the other is a nice Malawi. Him and his partner Vapor are doing some crazy work breeding landraces like of Jamaican Pineapple Skunk, Nigerian, Black Congolese, Malawi Gold, Angola Red, Destroyer x Angola Red/Thai, Columbian Black, Swazi Gold, Namibian, Jotake, etc. They are also doing using some very sativa dominate hybrids like their own Sasquatch, Breeder Steve’s Sweet Skunk and more. The nicest sativas I’ve ever smoked have definitely come out of their garden.
Right now you can purchase their Genetics for very reasonable prices ($50 per pack of 10) and many people are already getting stellar results. I would highly recommend anyone interested in purchasing some new and exciting Sativas to hit them up on IG.

Click to expand...

This is not the first time I have heard about C-Ray, didn't know Vapor from here was part of the team, cool. I was highly recommended from a knowledgeable person to get some landrace from him. Haven't got to it yet.

Today is mathematically the future

Today is mathematically the future

I agree with oldbootz.

I've nothing about ganja communities that are using dogmatic rules to build a genetic capital for theyr private use (landraces or not). But when it become like a sect that harass theyr old members over years, with a kind of "monsanto" strategy that avoid any wide spread of the best genetics in question ... it itch the darwinian portion of my brain. What a surprise that they can't survive well in the actual market ...

Right now, right here, the situation must first be well evaluated imho. Without useless shit in the eyes. People are buying like crazy feminized ruderalis hybrids that are barely outcrossed with a "name", to use it indoor. That's the crude reality of sales.

Lighting the fire on Ace or Boddhi, just because they outsourced some of theyr stuff from the same (dead) Fort Knox vault is like to emit a bloody critic on the people that collect these landraces before they disapear from the surface of the globe. Same way in my eyes.

And i don't like the products and the strategy of both, i will not defend them as a customer at all. It's not about a romance that end bad or about a private club that you can't leave even if it no longer exist ... i seriously don't give a fck about stoner's dramas that have a number of versions wich is equal to the number of stoners involved.

Imho, there is no ethical debate to have on the title of the thread at the moment that we speak about an unwanted product of the actual market.

A secret vault will not educate the mass to appreciate these bloods for theyr value and bring them back on the table of the future connoisseurs. The majority that will try by curiosity will grow it like a skunk (today the pure skunks are near to become the haze of yesterday for new growers damn), and cut it so early that they will get no potency and taste and call it "hay". And it's not entirely theyr fault, the "public schools" totally disapeared in benefit of "collectors" (to don't say gen's capitalists).

I'm ok to critic capitalism, even liberalism (i've nothing against the both personnally) but i own only gens that i'm able to maintain on long term. Never more. If ever i'm too bulimic, i pass the cone to another no matter what he/she will do with it. It's always better that an extinction.

No offense intended, just i don't like this bad new habit to judge and snitch openly people from a tight dogmatic beam. It's a private affair that only concern the private circle in question. It will not make the weed better.

Oldbootz you are getting it wrong... maybe it's because English is not my first language and debates become complex to me.

In this case is not about loosing anything by getting genetics to the people, nor about landraces ownership, it's about breeding ethics or if you are ok with others stealing your work and making money off it when they actually did nothing. They are all different debates that shouldn't be mixed.

The landrace thing is actually debatable, since landraces are the result of enviroment + nature + minimum selection work by local farmers. So besides in some cases there are really some family heirlooms, most of the times they are just imported seeds took there by someone else and getting acclimatissed to a certain enviroment and minimum care by the farmers (like hermie tossing and so on, in most optimistic cases really). This is no longer the time of the Indian Ganja doctors from past centuries, who bred connoisseur ganja plants with resources and knowledge that even nowadays continue to sound crazy. Let's get real, most of those native farmers don't even know how to harvest Cannabis plants at the right time in most of the cases.

Anyway once a landrace leaves its place of origin and gets grown outside it starts to change and is no longer a landrace... in some cases, if someone is willing to spend enough time and work with them, improving the lines under THEIR very own criteria and desires, they may end becoming a unique heirloom they've created through the years. If the growers are good/experienced enough, they may have selected the most unique traits from each genepool, fostering those traits they may identify as desirable for both their taste and also that type of plant.

This was the case of the Jamaican Lambsbread, Ethiopian, the Cherry Bomb from Green Genes, the Xmas Bud 79, Deep Chunk, X18 and so on. They are no longer landraces, they are heirlooms based on old landraces that once were imported and cherished, many years ago. They aren't much different to other heirloom hybrids as Blueberry, Haze, Skunk, Cali Orange, Big Sur Holy, Northern Lights and so on. They have being worked in a similar way, but only trying to keep them in pure form, breeding for their most desirable traits instead of outcrossing them for that purpose.

They are no longer what they used to be, since they have been transformed by someone else. They all belong to the growers or breeders who spent their lifetime working hard on their favourite smokes. Selecting and improving them generation after generation, growing them each single season and trying to end with something they love... and they all have the right to do whatever they want with them IMO, whether if it's release them, giving them out or keeping them for themselves if they want or they don't have any interest in sharing their work with the world. Just the same like a musician, craftsmen, painter or anyone else who "creates" something does. If they have been doing that with plants, why can't you do the same instead of depending on "those who release reproductions or IBL twists for you to enjoy". Just get a bunch of seeds, some space and create your own plants too. Anybody can do it really if they are willing to.

If you keep going on on the "Cannabis belongs to nature", "how you dare to grow landraces outside their places of origin" or "Cannabis belongs to the traditional farmers" thing, then let's agree to disagree and no one else will waste time or efforts on giving his opinions. Nature doesn't create high THC or high quality ganja/hash cultivars. Traditional farmers don't do it either... breeders or passionate growers do. If you can't understand that, then I guess you should move on.

Most people don't have a clue on what it takes to maintain and keep improving an untamed line like some people like Greengenes, Tom Hill and many other people did. And i can undestand why, since not many people is willing to dedicate time and work for that purpose. Especially those who grow for stash and depend on that. Few people have the space or time for +20 week untamed lines or try to improve them. Spending years in long term projects with those? Ok cool but if you aren't willing to do it, why do you speak about those who do and their opinions?

And this is exactly the reason why there are such few "landrace breeders" left... because it takes a lot to work with landraces and most of the times, only those passionate about Cannabis diversity are willing to do it. And if on top of all that, you'll realize you can't even get a living on it, so that's another reason why. Yet many have been still doing their thing for years and decades.

So well, tell them now that their lifetime projects should belong to the public domain or those lines actually belong to the farmers that used to grow something totally different and schwaggy 40 years before and I bet they are going to laugh at it. Or ask Vermontman what he felt when he shared the Oaxacan he preserved since the late 70s with a few guys from here and he realized one of them was reproducing the seeds and auctioning them on his back.

I've been sharing hundreds of seeds for years, some people grew them, some didn't even say thanks. I'm ok with that, I don't really care as I'm sharing because it makes me happy to see others happy. Generous yeah maybe, but not stupid really, so I'm definitely not OK to see someone breaking a promise after having asked you for certain seeds, then trusting him only to find out he's stabbing your back for greed, easy props and money, making hundreds of thousands per year in seed sales at other people's expense. A real man doesn't behave like that, with no honor or respect.

I guess that's many people are no longer sharing. Maybe you are happy to see cons making thousands and living the good life off your work, but I believe that's not ethical. And only someone who has lived that on their own skin will be able to know how dissapointing and discouraging it feels. Past week I've just realized about someone else who's using and releasing my work commercially without even mentioning the origin or the true story of the plant. Solution? No more sharing outside my circle of trust? Then as usual, many people loose because just a few idiot's fault. But hey, who cares? As you've said, we could keep growing our favourite seeds no matter what.

It's the same old shit... passionate people work hard and share their work without even thinking about making money off their passion, simply because they'd love to see other people enjoying it too. But then others are taking advantage and making money off that without even giving gredit or saying "thanks".

The problem with many people is because they have certain ethics, honor or respect, they think everyone else who grows Cannabis should have them too... and they are so wrong indeed.

oldbootz said:

This is not the first time I have heard about C-Ray, didn't know Vapor from here was part of the team, cool. I was highly recommended from a knowledgeable person to get some landrace from him. Haven't got to it yet.

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What’s up oldbootz! They are doing amazing work. I can’t recommend them enough. I’ve been hearing nothing but amazing reports on their gear. If you have Instagram you should check out some of the stuff people are growing from them. 20 seeds for 100 CAD and you can find an amazingly potent and terpy keeper.

oldbootz said:

Greedily guarding varieties from 'the man' or 'corporate greed' is just paranoia. You don't lose anything from sharing a variety. You can still grow it and smoke it yourself. The only thing you 'lose' is the fact that there are very few people with a rare variety and the more people you give it to the less rare it becomes and you don't get to feel so special for having this rare thing. But that's also greed.

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There are some varieties that I would not give out due to corporate takeover.

GW Pharma is always out on the webs trying to get people's seeds. There are just some genetics that I can see not giving out. A 20+% CBD with less than .1% THC, a 5-15% THCV plant, any plant with a substantial CBG ratio. These are the kind of genetics that will be taken from the cannabis community then used by Monsanto/big pharma/etc.

Now that being said we are discussing landraces here, which I feel should be loved, shared and spread all over the world. However at some point in this industry its not just about 'stoner paranoia', its about securing your own genetic IP future. There are big companies that actively want our genetics and actively seek them.

Just my .02

Mustafunk said:

The problem with many people is because they have certain ethics, honor or respect, they think everyone else who grows Cannabis should have them too... and they are so wrong indeed.

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Post of the decade!

Whats your is yours and you can do whatever you want with it.

If you give something away you don't want someone to sell it and make a profit from it. That's a slap in the face and bullshit if you ask me. That's ethics ,morals , values if you have those you understand. Peace sdd

for the record...

Gypsy Nirvana said:

There are many of us that miss Charlie being around.

He had some problems with those he had worked with over the years, and has moved to S.America.

It would be nice to see him around again.

You can probably get in touch with him via the Cannabiogen e-mail addy.

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....

I think something to be considered is where you got the seeds, if you respect that supplier, and how you can both be in harmony business wise.
Pure competition isnt necessarily bad, but in something as hard to come by as some landraces, a diluted market can be problematic and potentially harmful.

Say in my instance- i buy a pack of rsc beans, make F2's and sell em as a landrace at a low price, thats bullshit. Im infringing on hard work and undercutting, which could comprimise the motivation for one to go risk themselves and collect. But if i go to the same country and location, collect and sell, fair enought. Or if one was to take said brand, and isolate a trait and keep pure, or cross and stabalize, then one could honestly debate towards being ethical. I dont think it is black and white, but the question that one should always ask is, am i shitting on someone who may not deserve it...

Mustafunk said:

The landrace thing is actually debatable, since landraces are the result of enviroment + nature + minimum selection work by local farmers. So besides in some cases there are really some family heirlooms, most of the times they are just imported seeds took there by someone else and getting acclimatissed to a certain enviroment and minimum care by the farmers (like hermie tossing and so on, in most optimistic cases really). This is no longer the time of the Indian Ganja doctors from past centuries, who bred connoisseur ganja plants with resources and knowledge that even nowadays continue to sound crazy. Let's get real, most of those native farmers don't even know how to harvest Cannabis plants at the right time in most of the cases.

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Hey Mustafunk
So , if i understand you right, then Landraces are , let alone a bit of Selction by lokal Farmers very close to Wild Plants. So then : would Wild Plants sometimes , probably just in much rarer Cases provide some same strong Phenotypes, some real Landrace Gemstones? OR do you speak here of todays assumed degraded Landraces, nearly reverted to wild Plants?
What are the Indices for that? Have you seen a wild Plant to be reported Strong, or how is that that you can say Landraces are mostly the same, exept a small Degree of Selection. ?
Peace

Actually this Question eventually belongs in another Thrad`s (i just didnt wanna quote it just somewher else) , so eventually respond here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=355147 or here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=171380

RSC isn't working with strains to develop stability. That's for you.

I am now growing cherry bomb and I am appreciative of the time and effort Mr. G put into making this such a stable strain. NO hermies here.

working with raw genetics and turning them into something is fair enough, I don't feel like anyone should own the rights to any genetics, you are putting in the time, money and effort to find the good good, it's like if someone hands you a pile of dirt to find gold in, you bought the pile of dirt, if you find gold.. well it's yours.