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How do Aphria and Canopy Growth operate?

bigbadbiddy

Active member
Howdy folks,

I guess this goes to our Canadian members in particular.

Currently looking to enter a market and start a farm where Aphria and Canopy Growth will be the two top dogs at the start, or so it seems.

Don't really mind that as I am looking to operate in a niche and do the whole craft cannabis sort of thing so I might actually be able to profit from the big dogs paving the way etc.

To my question:
I was researching Aphria and Canopy Growth a bit and to me it seems that their main focus lies on the stock market and offering a way to invest into cannabis in the form of stocks. Which apparently was and remains in high demand.
They obviously have sub-brands/daughter companies. Canopy Growth is a bit more open about that mentioning Tweed and Spectrum Cannabis as their sub-brands and share a bit about what each does.

But overall, I find it hard to find information on how exactly they operate. Some more research leads me to believe that they regard themselves as a one-stop-shop for anything medicinal cannabis. Meaning they go from seed all the way to extract, building farms where they employ growers to produce cannabis, then building extraction labs, employing extractors all the way to packaging and sales.

But it seems to me that they are mostly "money guys" when I hear to anyone from their company talk it doesn't sound different from bankers and finance sector folks to me.

Do they have human resources like master growers within their company structure? Or do they look on the local market to hire people? Or do they ship them in from Canada where they have a database with master growers waiting to be deployed by Aphria?
How do I imagine this?

Once they enter a market, aside from building production and processing facilities and building business relationships with outlets such as dispensaries/pharmacies to make sure their stuff is sold and fast, how do I imagine them operating?

Do they bring in their genetics from Canada? Do they look to be the cheapest? Do they look for most market penetration (being available everywhere)?

I particularly wonder what they bring in from Canada/abroad and what they do locally.

Another example:
If I am not mistaken, Aphria operates exclusively with greenhouses while Canopy Growth does a little greenhouse and mostly indoor facilities. Neither seems to do true outdoor growing (probably telling people you can't make clean medicine with outdoor bud ...).
And they both obviously grow with synthetic nutrients.

I assume they ship in those nutrients from Canada then? Because I can't imagine them opening a nutrient production facility in the country they enter as well, at least not from the start.


Well I think this is already a lot of questions and a lot of text. I would be happy if we can get a discussion on the subject going and could get some insight in how these big players do when they enter a new market.

BBB
 

Maple_Flail

Well-known member
well, when they entered the market it was a significantly different landscape.

Med only, they have had almost 4 years Iirc to build.

Aphira grows some, but they have large supply contracts from Tweed. for all intents and purpose you can essentially consider the same company with two different names

Seeds, you won't find ANY info about their seed. Period. its all proprietary, no one knows what they are getting never heard of anyone getting their beans either.

master growers.. yup, they poach international talent, and have no issue with hiring eh... less than savoury that look clean. take that how you will..

Cheapest? one of them, both there is also something else that comes with lowest price. worst quality and constant fluctuation of stock.

Genetics are licenced or acquired by other means. (ie grandfathered from MMar days when HC was saying go to the internet, already exist in canada, and there are import forum they can fill and apply for exemption)

they don't need dispensaries as technically those will not be allowed atleast in the majority of provinces. last i check BC was the only place NOT cutting the little guy out.

you can't grow medicinal cannabis on this scale in these zonings outdoor in canada. Its crop suicide. if the weather doesn't get to them the hemp pollen will.. has to be greenhouse or indoor.

look at it like a distillery as much as they can do in house they will do. the management and dept heads are poached and the underling positions are filled by those with licenses to posses.

as far as distribution, Mail is the norm, in the legit way. you cannot go to a store and smell your selection before you order. it will be the same way when rec hits. Disto is controlled federally from LP's (there is no craft grow outside of homegrow in the current regulation) not to mention current drafts of provincial laws currently down allow a craft segment in many places.

Nutrients and medium are provided by corporate contract with Promix and an undisclosed Nutrient. I can tell you for sure whatever it is.. it sure as fuck ISN"T organic.

There is big money and big support behind these guys. AFAIK Tweed and WeedMD are the only ones big enough to supply other LP's with product.
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
But Tweed is a subsidiary of canopy growth.

So if they are essentially the same corporation (which the supply agreement with Tweed sure makes it look like), then they do produce themselves (under the Tweed brand) and do the whole supply chain in-house all the way to the sale.

Mail-order you say, interesting, didn't imagine it like that but if you look at their websites, at least with Aphria you can see that you can order online (after loggging in).

Very interesting information, thank you!

Particularly that no one knows what genetics they grow and that they basically bring in the upper level employees and only higher the grunts locally (if I understood correctly).


So their products really aren't on shelves anywhere so you can touch/smell/see them before buying? It all goes through mail order or pharmacies where the stuff is packaged already etc.?
 

Maple_Flail

Well-known member
I must clarify, Their seeds are unknown, Tweed branded strains are mostly unknown (however easy assumptions get you in the right direction) and their branded strains that are licensed all have our usual sort of "trade" name accompanying the medical rebranding

for example, CBD nordle from CBD crew is called Argyle in tweed shops. other may be transparent about the strain by be rather coy about who produced it, others entirely rebrand and don't reveal the info on what it is.

As far as i'm aware Aphria have their own "unique" facility, while tweed has several in quite a few locations, and i believe they have external contract with some of their exclusive products however i'm not sure.

and yes it appears canopy corp/tweed is positioning itself to be the one stop "shop" for what regulations allow.

and ya that could be the long and short of it, it isn't unheard of for people to relocate to attempt to work for an LP. Hell i'm considering it. It will be a long time for my sense of a little guy will be able to do anything in the market beyond cater to extremely niche markets Ie craft medical.. but that a very small niche that would draw criticism price is the single highest complaint about those uneducated even from tweed.

Currently(afaik) there are only contracts to stock pharmacies for med once rec comes into effect. there is no place at all other than another patients private residence to view or smell or even touch it before you purchase and sign for it.

yes its packed to kinda mimic RX containers for most part every LP has their own style of doing it. I hate the packaging it imparts a taste for a few days and its batch grown and over dried so shake is plentiful

the current market of "grey" area dispensaries haven't really been invited to be included in rec legalization, the way that market figured out and keep customer satisfaction isn't even something the government is thinking of.
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
So basically their m/o is to be the first to market through their deep pockets and thus ear of the government/powers that be and then flood the market with average (branded as top-shelf of course) cannabis of dubious descent (unknown origin, quality, genetics etc.). Making sure it gets into every nook and cranny that the government allows.

Sounds to me like they aim to be the WalMart/AlbertHijn/Carrefour of cannabis or something the like.
Basically aiming for maximum market saturation and market share.

I think there is plenty of room there for offering something else.
 

Maple_Flail

Well-known member
Average would be high praise for what they have provided for medial use, the odd diamond in the rough. All sub-mid quality IMHO. I think i was impressed with a bedrocan to a point and one of Snoop's CBD's strains other then that...

needless to say a different LP now has my script.
 

Maple_Flail

Well-known member
derp can't edit yet.

there appears to be a lot of room to play but thats when regulations come into bite you in the ass.

no edibles outside of concentrated activated out in a carrier oil. this is also limited to 30mg per ml and 10mg per ml when put into capsules.

Hash or shatter doesn't exist on this market because regulations don't allow it to be sold, you can however make it yourself. that is basically what room there is for.

If you can foot the bill to get the licenses, and have to fight tooth and nail to get your product acknowledged by the masses you still have to sell it mail order until you can land a contract for distribution which comes thrus the government.

Its hard to think that in the current climate in most provinces and territories that with will actually be fore room for the little guy. (again at this current point in this bill's legislative process, the Bill its self hasn't been passed yet. still need to finish second reading and do the third in the senate, then back to the lower house for likely what for all intents and purposes be a stone wall rush job by the liberals)

Without corporate support, I would hold off. Exclusivity is a thing and many have been awarded by contract. starting something now or in the near future is a long up hill battle.
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
Bedrocan holds at least one solid strain which is the Jack Herrer cultivar they got their hands on from Sensi back in the 90ies or something.
So it figures that they have at least some decent genetics in their library.

I guess I have to wait and see how legislation shakes out and how discriminating it will be towards the little guy.

But the impression I get is that they are definitely leaving a niche to be filled by the right little guy.
Just have to wait and see if legislation will allow for that niche to exist or not ...
 

Maple_Flail

Well-known member
Bedrocan holds at least one solid strain which is the Jack Herrer cultivar they got their hands on from Sensi back in the 90ies or something.
So it figures that they have at least some decent genetics in their library.

I guess I have to wait and see how legislation shakes out and how discriminating it will be towards the little guy.

But the impression I get is that they are definitely leaving a niche to be filled by the right little guy.
Just have to wait and see if legislation will allow for that niche to exist or not ...

if tweed knew how to grow it MAYBE? i've tried it. I wouldn't say its a popular pheno of jack It is ia actually Jack. likely merely super consistent (three batches all withing 1.4% thc of each other)

didn't have the right nose or staying power. but then again i prefer an NL dom Jack, and this one certainly was not.
 

Somatek

Active member
Zenabis is already trying to recruit "craft growers";
https://www.zenabis.com/craft-cannabis-growers-canada/

There's a link on there to proposed changes & the gov did mention they wanted to allow microgrows to get licenses to transition to the legal market. When they do that & how expensive it'll be is the big question.

I recently signed up with broken coast, which is owned by aphria. It wasn't at all competitive most bud. Looked good but no flavour & very mild sleepy stone
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Any of them have any plans to open "pesticide free" facilities for a higher priced "Clean" product? Guessing they'd want to spin that off as another company name as well?
 
So basically their m/o is to be the first to market through their deep pockets and thus ear of the government/powers that be and then flood the market with average (branded as top-shelf of course) cannabis of dubious descent (unknown origin, quality, genetics etc.). Making sure it gets into every nook and cranny that the government allows.

Sounds to me like they aim to be the WalMart/AlbertHijn/Carrefour of cannabis or something the like.
Basically aiming for maximum market saturation and market share.

I think there is plenty of room there for offering something else.
you are correct in your assumption/thinking....... our movement is no different than the way the revenuers and the large distilleries operated after prohibition ended. The small time moonshiners were pushed out and to this day it is still illegal and they can be jailed and lets not forget how the lowes and home depots were the demise of the craft mom and pop hardware stores that got crushed. Deep pockets always seem to win the day. Why would anyone think weed will be any different?
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Any of them have any plans to open "pesticide free" facilities for a higher priced "Clean" product? Guessing they'd want to spin that off as another company name as well?

There are at least two and both have been caught using banned products.
 

cryptop

Active member
Any of them have any plans to open "pesticide free" facilities for a higher priced "Clean" product? Guessing they'd want to spin that off as another company name as well?

The current strategy pertaining to that is limited to marketing buzzwords. A couple of companies have created separate entities that independently certify "organic" cannabis, so as you can imagine they write the regulations based on what they are operating with, most of the time not even close to traditional organic.
 

bigbadbiddy

Active member
you are correct in your assumption/thinking....... our movement is no different than the way the revenuers and the large distilleries operated after prohibition ended. The small time moonshiners were pushed out and to this day it is still illegal and they can be jailed and lets not forget how the lowes and home depots were the demise of the craft mom and pop hardware stores that got crushed. Deep pockets always seem to win the day. Why would anyone think weed will be any different?


I think the fact that the deep pockets and "big players" are always "winning" doesn't mean that they cover 100% of the market. They never do.
They "win" the number 1 spot, sure. They do force out a lot of smaller players from the market as they can't compete with them for the main market.

But this always, ALWAYS opens the doors for niche markets. That has been true for any sort of business.

When we speak alcohol/beer as a comparison, there are many healthy niches in that sector. In the US not as much as elsewhere which has to do with cultural differences as well. But even in the US you have these craft beer niches that aren't even that small/tiny depending on how you look at it.
These niches can also become quite big sometimes. I know with beers, there are many small-time breweries in Europe that are in particular high demand in certain areas where they are being sold with high volume in supermarkets and the like right next to big brand breweries. While in other areas of Europe, they aren't even heard of, unlike the big brand breweries that sell high volumes everywhere in Europe.

You mentioned the small mom/pop craft stores being forced out of business by the big DIY store chains. While that is certainly true, this also opened the door for niche stores that for example sell only small crafts supplies or supplies for miniature building/painting and the like. This niche used to be serviced by the same mom/pop craft stores but were left out by the big DIY stores and then created a demand to be serviced by smaller, specialized stores.


My belief and hope with cannabis is that particularly the organic cannabis niche will be healthy and under-serviced/-supplied for quite some time going forward and that is the niche I want to operate in.

The market is already ripe for plucking in this regard if you ask me. I believe the demand/desire for organic cannabis, particularly in the medicinal sector, is already there and will remain as the big entities like Aphria etc. are not servicing this segment. And once they do decide to try and tap that market, it doesn't surprise me that they fail because they can't stop using their wonderjuices against pests and for increasing yields etc. that are most definitely not organic.

I am hoping/expecting these big players to cover maybe 90% of the market and operate within the 10% of the market that would like a superior, organic, chemical free product and are willing to pay a little more for that.


My hope, ultimately is to just have my organic, slightly more expensive alternative in the shelves next to offerings from aphira etc. and have the customers/patients realize that the organic bud and the products from it are simply superior, cleaner, smoother, etc.

Sure this will not result in me "beating" the aphria offerings out of the market but I am confident it will result in people with a certain profile choosing my product over theirs.

As long as I can make an honest living from this and support my family, I am fine if I can't afford 3 villas, 5 cars and 3 speedboats.

I think there is a way to co-exist, aphria etc. getting theirs while I still get mine. Because I ain't so greedy and am satisfied with what I can get in a small niche while they are happy to have the main market...
 

clearheaded

Active member
There are several consulting companies you can pay to help you get going. I wouldnt worry about what they do but focus on what you can do which is likely more along the lines of a micro grow.

HC has approved the import of some genetics however i think it will become easier soon(or maybe harder lol). as of now you can purchase genetics from other LPs or apply to import from over seas. paradise DNA dinafem have done this with some LPs.

They produce cannabis for 1.60-2.00 a gram. there is some wholesale prices coming out as legalization is coming which i think i read 3-5 a gram? keep in mind that is for pretty mid grade stuff. LPs sell flower for like 25 bucks a gram when export to germany, think they are in for a rude awakening once microprocessers come online. As there cost to produce may be 15-20% higher i think they will command slightly higher price but also be able to turn over all there product faster because of demand of quality. which will likely cause current LP shwag to go for ALOT cheaper. esp before everyone and there dog grows there will be some money to be made.

MPLE FLAIL actually "hash" is now available from 1 LP as Kief. edibles are coming but they needed more time to get it all figured out. extracts will come aswell, simply for the fact that if they want to get rid of black market they will have to.

in current space being a retailer is going to be a tuff thing i think particularly in places like van. you cant smell see etc teh bud and have to buy pre packed dried out old bud paying premium prices esp with extra 10%tax. particularly if you can just order the same product directly from the LP for cheaper online. no real advantage of purchasing through a retail store besides getting cannabis 24 hrs sooner then purolator to ur door as most offer free or 5-10 dollar shipping. and they are all set up to handle tonnes of online or phone orders.. have a better chance of getting better bud from buddy who just has 2 kinds and u get what u get and at least then u can smell and see and say no or get less where as in stores u cant. thc% is meaningless on packages for quality, terp levels there is no standard so who knows when they are tested (not dried, fresh quick dry?, or after been packaged and waiting in a container for 3 months then tested to see what ACTUALLY get?)... lol anyway waaay of topic
 

PaulieWaulie

Member
Veteran
Aurora is doing some cool things, from their Sky facility in edmonton, which I think his indoor lights, plus sun through the roof, all sealed though. they are automated to the point of having no people around plants until harvest. Very aggressive asset acquiring strategy, they have an international strategy as well, so are thinking big. They do hire from the growing community and are proud of this "hybdrid culture" of suits/growers. That has attributed to them getting good results quick out of the door as far as quality/yeilds/cost per gram - which is the lowest besides aphria, but they are greenhouse so of course. But all in cost is $1 per gram. And all this without the 4 year medical head start canopy growth had. Very innovate. They will have an app where you can order anything and have it delivered end of day. I would say, if your trying to compete on this level with them, and your asking on forums for help, then your already in trouble. also on lift or whatever its called you can see the strains LP's sell. Ive seen girl scouts cookies, which I havent even tried or grown yet!
 

clearheaded

Active member
bedrocan did the auto for years. rooms are basically sealed until harvest no man touches. from my understanding at least. nothing new. that being said ya its nice that everyone goes smokes joints at coffee breaks when they go on other grow tours. :)
 

Mikell

Dipshit Know-Nothing
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I think there is a way to co-exist, aphria etc. getting theirs while I still get mine. Because I ain't so greedy and am satisfied with what I can get in a small niche while they are happy to have the main market.

That's the wrong mindset, almost antibusiness.

You want to coexist peacefully with billion dollar conglomerates that are jockeying for total control.

Beer is brought up a lot, but what happens there (big fish eating small fish) is what happens everywhere.

Order from any beneficial insect company the world over and you are likely to see 3 to 4 labels. While there are dozens of companies, most are retailers. Some had successful breeding and production programs, but as the small fish grew, it only became easier for the big fish to catch.

Of the 500 applications pending approval, 90% will fail, the others will be swallowed whole by a fish the likes they've never seen.
 

Maple_Flail

Well-known member
That's the wrong mindset, almost antibusiness.

You want to coexist peacefully with billion dollar conglomerates that are jockeying for total control.

Beer is brought up a lot, but what happens there (big fish eating small fish) is what happens everywhere.

Order from any beneficial insect company the world over and you are likely to see 3 to 4 labels. While there are dozens of companies, most are retailers. Some had successful breeding and production programs, but as the small fish grew, it only became easier for the big fish to catch.

Of the 500 applications pending approval, 90% will fail, the others will be swallowed whole by a fish the likes they've never seen.

so much truth in this post, it is astounding.
 
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