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Old 05-08-2014, 09:44 PM #31
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Originally Posted by canna woop! View Post
and had trifoliate leaves. They didn't make it in my garden which was my any exception at the time. If I got a trifoliate I would probably set her outside and see what she done
Just to add, trifoliate is not the same as tricot or whorled phyllotaxy. Trifoliate refers to the leaflets on a compound leaf. I.e. a clover (Trifolium) is, unless you're lucky, trifoliate. So are the second set of leaves on most cannabis plants.
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:25 PM #32
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Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
I would like to see ones that had whorled Tri stems on not only off the main stalk, like is common, but also then again on the sets of branches off the first tri stems, and again from the 2nd that are on the first. So it is tri whorled on tri whorled on tri whorled branches. Never seen it, I have seen a few tri seconday branches just a few.
It seems the whorling - in my case anyway - only starts when and where apical dominance is established (showing the influence of auxin again). I went over pics of the quad dad and my current whorled females and it's rather obvious now: the lateral/side branches started whorling 'after' the plant was topped. That could explain what you posted above.

Attachments of whirled vs regular, same cross, same age, same treatment. Although the regular seems to be more sativa-dom, the top views show nicely how the whorled spreads out its leaves more efficiently.

I popped 15 more seeds to see if there's a ratio or at least see if there's an abnormal high frequency, to be continued.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:33 PM #33
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Looks like I just lost my regular opposite phyllotaxy control plant, i.e. it looks like it's starting to whorl.



The definitive whorled plant. Going to top both soon.


From the 15 seeds I planted 16 germinated. Broke one myself, and the one with the two seeds aren't good candidates so got 13 left for the test.



So far they all look very similar


These came from a single seed, includes a "unicot (?)"


Now that the one in the first pic starts to whorl as well it's starting to look like ALL the offspring of the ICExCH cross got the whorl trait. Could be 50% but then I happened to pick the 6 whorled out of 12 before the whorled trait starts showing which seems a bit unlikely. Haven't seen one with 4 leaves yet like the CH dad.
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Old 05-14-2014, 05:29 AM #34
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Interesting....
I find the inheritance of whorled phyllotaxy very interesting. As are the efforts to unravel it all. Do you still have a clone of the mother and/or father that these whorled seeds came from?
I have found many double yolkers even a few triples over the years. The three seedlings were not all equally vigorus.
I also have a 25 year old clone of O Haze that is Fasciated, when cloned from the non-fasciated parts of the plant, small clones do not express it until they get over a few feet tall, then they all do, veg or flowering. I used it as a parent and saw no progeney that were fasciated. Now that I think about it I have seen many female fasciated but I do not remember ever seeing many male.
Anyone ever seen a fasciated male plant? Got a picture? I would love to cross a bunch of female fasciated X a bunch of male fasciated and see what happens, if anything....
As for whorled, has anyone kept a clone alive for years and maintained the whorled trait? How long?
-SamS

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Old 05-14-2014, 08:00 PM #35
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I don't have the male parent nor female parents in clone form anymore. Originally the goal wasn't to breed for whorled phyllotaxy, merely to create a whole bunch of seeds that would give me enough to play with. The ICE I picked for its structure and being so vital. Really thick stems. The taste and smell were undesirable (an understatement). Although the offspring smells pretty good so far I never planned to be able to recreate the F1.

I do have a couple of vials with a bit of pollen in my freezer though, saved some for a possible backcross. I also have couple of dozen of these ICE seeds (which is either a selfed or reversed and rather stable).

Also, I already have thousands of these F1s already (3x outcrosses, 1x in with ch itself). Was a little bummed getting only a single viable seed from a fem seed test (tiresias mist) so figured I do a regular seed run instead. Got a bit carried away and ended up with quite a bit more than expected and needed.

I got the following from the same whorled dad:
ICE x CH (most, perhaps even all eventually, whorled)
Chunk x CH (many whorled, same deal as ICE x CH, haven't grown out enough in number and duration)
L8N8 x CH (popped only one, a regular opposite so far)
CHxCH (haven't planted any of these yet)

L8N8 is from that one viable seed I mentioned above, has Chocolate Fondue as the mom, which in turn has CH as the granddad. It's the most sweetest haze I have ever smoked and the most stretchy plant I have ever seen. The idea behind using the ICE and L8N8 is to at some point down the road combine them.

The ChunkxCH cross is actually the one I planned to work with most, and those too are mostly whorled (and as with the ICE cross perhaps all eventually). I'm not certain about the Chunk being just chunk, came from a grower who removed a male too late. I call this one Penelope for now, hence the P with pics below.

P#1:
Whorled in a neat way like the ICE cross.



P#4: whorled like P#1 but killed for being too stretchy during sexing.

P#5:
Whorled in a weird way, had to cut a few leaves of, basically the ones it had while rooting and wasn't elongating the stem.

Few days ago:


Now:




There was some consistency in the pattern of two leaves directly below each other (3 times) but it's getting messy now. Needless to say P#5 isn't going to be a candidate as a parent for F2, but I'm curious to see what it will turn into. May have to top it to get it to grow more normally.

They are all clones, but all the terminal shoot from topping the clone mom.

Although I mentioned I didn't find a quad again yet, I did find one during an initial seed viability test, but, it was missing its terminal shoot. Leaves had straight/smooth edges but were also wrinkled and unhealthy. Basically a runt.

It seems - based on not necessarily reliable resources - one of the downsides of mutations like this is that it's unstable in a different way, i.e. can lead to runts. I do get the impression that is more the case with the Chunk x CH than the ICE x CH (which so far are all very similar). Haven't popped enough of the Chunk x CH to really be able to make that determination though but so far it's as if the ICE can handle the whorling better.


One of the double-yoker seedlings, the regular one, came up nice and green last night after I reburied it so got 14 test candidates, for now, still need to transplant them - might have to go guerrilla on this one.

I'll shoot a few new pics today, including a group shot that shows how extremely vigorous the whorled ICExCH is from the previous posts. If I had 6 of those I'd be ready to switch to flowering.
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:03 PM #36
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Couldn't add more pictures to the post, so separate reply: I have a pic already in an album here of what looks like a fasciated Skywalker Kush bud. Would have been more obvious from the topview and in comparison with regular buds around it. I remember posting somewhere it expanded horizontally instead of vertically, didn't know it had a name, thanks for that. It's a terminal bud:
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Old 05-14-2014, 08:13 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sativied View Post
I don't have the male parent nor female parents in clone form anymore. Originally the goal wasn't to breed for whorled phyllotaxy, merely to create a whole bunch of seeds that would give me enough to play with. The ICE I picked for its structure and being so vital. Really thick stems. The taste and smell were undesirable (an understatement). Although the offspring smells pretty good so far I never planned to be able to recreate the F1.

I do have a couple of vials with a bit of pollen in my freezer though, saved some for a possible backcross. I also have couple of dozen of these ICE seeds (which is either a selfed or reversed and rather stable).

Also, I already have thousands of these F1s already (3x outcrosses, 1x in with ch itself). Was a little bummed getting only a single viable seed from a fem seed test (tiresias mist) so figured I do a regular seed run instead. Got a bit carried away and ended up with quite a bit more than expected and needed.

I got the following from the same whorled dad:
ICE x CH (most, perhaps even all eventually, whorled)
Chunk x CH (many whorled, same deal as ICE x CH, haven't grown out enough in number and duration)
L8N8 x CH (popped only one, a regular opposite so far)
CHxCH (haven't planted any of these yet)

L8N8 is from that one viable seed I mentioned above, has Chocolate Fondue as the mom, which in turn has CH as the granddad. It's the most sweetest haze I have ever smoked and the most stretchy plant I have ever seen. The idea behind using the ICE and L8N8 is to at some point down the road combine them.

The ChunkxCH cross is actually the one I planned to work with most, and those too are mostly whorled (and as with the ICE cross perhaps all eventually). I'm not certain about the Chunk being just chunk, came from a grower who removed a male too late. I call this one Penelope for now, hence the P with pics below.

P#1:
Whorled in a neat way like the ICE cross.
View Image
View Image

P#4: whorled like P#1 but killed for being too stretchy during sexing.

P#5:
Whorled in a weird way, had to cut a few leaves of, basically the ones it had while rooting and wasn't elongating the stem.

Few days ago:
View Image

Now:
View Image

View Image

There was some consistency in the pattern of two leaves directly below each other (3 times) but it's getting messy now. Needless to say P#5 isn't going to be a candidate as a parent for F2, but I'm curious to see what it will turn into. May have to top it to get it to grow more normally.

They are all clones, but all the terminal shoot from topping the clone mom.

Although I mentioned I didn't find a quad again yet, I did find one during an initial seed viability test, but, it was missing its terminal shoot. Leaves had straight/smooth edges but were also wrinkled and unhealthy. Basically a runt.

It seems - based on not necessarily reliable resources - one of the downsides of mutations like this is that it's unstable in a different way, i.e. can lead to runts. I do get the impression that is more the case with the Chunk x CH than the ICE x CH (which so far are all very similar). Haven't popped enough of the Chunk x CH to really be able to make that determination though but so far it's as if the ICE can handle the whorling better.


One of the double-yoker seedlings, the regular one, came up nice and green last night after I reburied it so got 14 test candidates, for now, still need to transplant them - might have to go guerrilla on this one.

I'll shoot a few new pics today, including a group shot that shows how extremely vigorous the whorled ICExCH is from the previous posts. If I had 6 of those I'd be ready to switch to flowering.
#3 picture and #5 picture are Fasciated, were they also tri whorled phyllotaxy?, are they female or male, it looks like #3 & #5 are just different photos of one female plant?
-SamS

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Old 05-14-2014, 08:32 PM #38
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Try selfing a female Whorled to itself by turning a clone of the whorled female to male via STS and pollinated the same female clone and see if the progeny have a higher incidence of whorled?
Do the same if you have a female fasciated, turn a cutting male, self it to itself and see what the progeny are.
These are true S1 seeds, as they are selfed and made with only one plants genes.
When I made cuttings of a fasciated plant I had, even parts cloned that were not fasciated would turn fasciated when they got over a few feet tall, starting with the middle apex meristem, if I remember correctly. Is yours the same?
If you do any of this please post the results.
IC member GMT has a variety Bruised Nuts, that was claimed to be mostly whorled phyllotaxy.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=256517
-SamS

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Old 05-15-2014, 12:45 AM #39
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Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
#3 picture and #5 picture are Fasciated, were they also tri whorled phyllotaxy?, are they female or male, it looks like #3 & #5 are just different photos of one female plant?
Same plant indeed (pic 4 too), and definitely female. I selected it because it did seem to start whirling (the plant I took this clone off), but looking back it was so small and tight it could have been just fasciated. Because it was so tight I haven't really observed this one close enough to see where, how and when it started. It was in any case not neatly regular opposite. The lowest parts I cut off when rooting this clone are spawning new nodes again, showing it was almost a quad. From the top like this: >< rather than X.

And yes as I mentioned in an earlier post I will self it, back cross it (assuming the frozen pollen is still viable), and will keep clones to cross it with a male in the future as well. I planned on using the tiresias mist of which I still have some in a bottle (I think it's just CS), it worked last round I was just too hasty and didn't have enough light on the reversed cutting ending up with paste rather than pollen. I will try to get or create some STS to do it properly. Main candidate for selfing is the one out of the ICE cross but maybe I'll do the P#5 (chunk x ch) as well.

If space and time allows I will self the fasciated as well. I'll clone it in any case and keep it around. It doesn't look as happy as the rest but is creating healthy roots rapidly so should be fine soon.

I will continue to update this thread with the results and observations. And thanks for pointing out that other thread, the whorl is strong in that one, my seedlings so far all start out regular.


Some pics of the whorled male it started with.

In hempy instead of my regular setup so I could remove him later:


After recovering from topping and a bit of LST. Some tri, some regular, bottom right is the quad.


Preflowers at a quad node:



My flower closet (in which I usually veg for week roughly).

4 days later and a couple of hours later (HPS on shot):
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Old 05-15-2014, 01:30 AM #40
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Hit submit by accident... ah well, need to get 50 posts for more album space anyway

I moved P#5 to the middle and removed P#4. P#4 in the last image above should be P#6. I don't know if P#6 is male or female, currently still regular opposite (the only one of the bunch).

P#1B is a clone of the same plant as P#1A (great structure also during sexing, strong smell, clearly the best of the 12 P (chunk x CH) so I figured I grow two from that one. P#4 and P#1B are from cuttings taken after sexing, sort of revegs, and that isn't working out very well. Good chance I will remove P#1B too and allow the two IH (ICE x CH) plants to take in that space (4x4' feet total).

Currently under 400 watt, swapping to 600 watt in a few days. And then I will also top the 3 larger ones - almost feel bad about changing its natural structure but I have to keep them together height-wise.

IH#5 is the one I will self, assuming it turns out female again... it should of course, I sexed the plant from which I took this clone and was female, but it looks so much like it's dad it's almost scary. Except that it has thicker stems and the leaves looks more like mom too.

In addition to being so bushy on the top side, IH#5 (and the whorled P#1A, definitely female) has so many roots I can no longer pull it entirely out of the tube (see attachment).
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