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Old 05-02-2014, 06:01 PM #21
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I also was unable to breed for this trait but I have had a couple that were whorled on secondary branches.

Really haven't had any of late and sometimes the trait occurs early then just goes away returning to normal structure.

They seem about equal in m/f ratio in fact most seem to be females now that I think about it.

The compactness makes the structure desirable but just a little bit more. Hardly worth seeking but if you get one keep the clone. Bog
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Old 05-02-2014, 06:23 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
They are whorled phyllotaxy, I made a cross of a male Whorled Phyllotaxy, which I seem to find more of, and a female Whorled Phyllotaxy and got no whorled offspring.
I like the way they look. Do people see more males or females with this?
I kept several females around they are still whorled.
I would like to see ones that had whorled Tri stems on not only off the main stalk, like is common, but also then again on the sets of branches off the first tri stems, and again from the 2nd that are on the first. So it is tri whorled on tri whorled on tri whorled branches. Never seen it, I have seen a few tri seconday branches just a few.

-SamS
Nearly every plant I've found with whorled phyllotaxy has been male as well.
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Old 05-02-2014, 09:54 PM #23
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I had a C99 plant that grew small buds on the fan leafs. I wish I still had pictures
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Old 05-03-2014, 03:55 AM #24
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I have seen that once on one of my strains...never reappeared.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:35 PM #25
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Rather than starting a new thread, figured I bump this fairly recent one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman View Post
They are whorled phyllotaxy, I made a cross of a male Whorled Phyllotaxy, which I seem to find more of, and a female Whorled Phyllotaxy and got no whorled offspring.
I like the way they look. Do people see more males or females with this?
I kept several females around they are still whorled.
I would like to see ones that had whorled Tri stems on not only off the main stalk, like is common, but also then again on the sets of branches off the first tri stems, and again from the 2nd that are on the first. So it is tri whorled on tri whorled on tri whorled branches. Never seen it, I have seen a few tri seconday branches just a few.

-SamS
Quoting you because it's partly in reply to your post and got question.

I created three crosses with a whorled male that had 4 sets at each node (on some branches, others had 3) and am about to grow out a few whorled female offsprings from those. Those have 3 instead of 4 though. Didn't expect to find them so easily in the F1 already, and while in the other cross most are male, I found 2 males and 2 females in 12 plants (I know, small pool so means little). I read somewhere it's a recessive trait so planned on looking for them in F2.

This is the CH/C99 dad. Besides the whorling it had trichs on fans and balls.


The regular ICE mom, vegged for about a week under 600watt after seedling stage under 18watt. Extreme and massive branching.


This is the result, ICE x Cannalope Haze (which I just recently found out is C99), topped a plant and sexed it, this is the top, rooted days (not even a week) ago.




( ^^spilled some nutesolution on it. )

It clearly has a better mini canopy compared to a non-whorled sister of her. It factually creates more plant material in the same time. I don't really expect more yield, I do expect and even shorter veg time (combined with cropping/topping/scrogging).

I read several times the trait tends to disappears after a certain amount of nodes, while the opposite is going on with my plants. The whorling increases which each node till it reaches a point where 3 leaves originate from the same height and it sort of stabilizes. I don't veg very long and also haven't been able to observe yet what happens when female buds form but based on some pics I've seen of whorled bud sites it does reappear when the internoding shortens again during flowering.



Maybe you can shine some light on this for me Sam. If it's a recessive trait, the trait only appears when its homozygous. Now if regular opposite phyllotaxy is P and whorled is p, I can deduct that my male was pp. If I would have crossed it with PP it wouldn't show up in any of my offspring (all Pp), while it does show up in offspring, so the mom must have been Pp, which means 50% should be whorled (2x Pp and 2x pp per 4 plants, which could actually be the case, haven't grown out that many yet).

However, you crossed a whorled male and female and didn't get whorled offspring which shoots a hole in my limited-understanding theory. While if its recessive and only shows up when homozygous that would have been pp x pp which is all pp, i.e. all whorled. Is it possible your whorling was caused by different genes or combi off than mine or others in general?

It's just an attempt for fun and practice so far, but I created literally thousands of seeds with that same dad and will continue to look for whirled offspring and observe.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:46 PM #26
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I think worled phylogaxy is interesting but it refers to a different type of plant like some monocots
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Old 05-07-2014, 02:58 AM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sativied View Post
Rather than starting a new thread, figured I bump this fairly recent one.



Quoting you because it's partly in reply to your post and got question.

I created three crosses with a whorled male that had 4 sets at each node (on some branches, others had 3) and am about to grow out a few whorled female offsprings from those. Those have 3 instead of 4 though. Didn't expect to find them so easily in the F1 already, and while in the other cross most are male, I found 2 males and 2 females in 12 plants (I know, small pool so means little). I read somewhere it's a recessive trait so planned on looking for them in F2.

This is the CH/C99 dad. Besides the whorling it had trichs on fans and balls.
View Image

The regular ICE mom, vegged for about a week under 600watt after seedling stage under 18watt. Extreme and massive branching.
View Image

This is the result, ICE x Cannalope Haze (which I just recently found out is C99), topped a plant and sexed it, this is the top, rooted days (not even a week) ago.

View Image

View Image
( ^^spilled some nutesolution on it. )

It clearly has a better mini canopy compared to a non-whorled sister of her. It factually creates more plant material in the same time. I don't really expect more yield, I do expect and even shorter veg time (combined with cropping/topping/scrogging).

I read several times the trait tends to disappears after a certain amount of nodes, while the opposite is going on with my plants. The whorling increases which each node till it reaches a point where 3 leaves originate from the same height and it sort of stabilizes. I don't veg very long and also haven't been able to observe yet what happens when female buds form but based on some pics I've seen of whorled bud sites it does reappear when the internoding shortens again during flowering.

View Image

Maybe you can shine some light on this for me Sam. If it's a recessive trait, the trait only appears when its homozygous. Now if regular opposite phyllotaxy is P and whorled is p, I can deduct that my male was pp. If I would have crossed it with PP it wouldn't show up in any of my offspring (all Pp), while it does show up in offspring, so the mom must have been Pp, which means 50% should be whorled (2x Pp and 2x pp per 4 plants, which could actually be the case, haven't grown out that many yet).

However, you crossed a whorled male and female and didn't get whorled offspring which shoots a hole in my limited-understanding theory. While if its recessive and only shows up when homozygous that would have been pp x pp which is all pp, i.e. all whorled. Is it possible your whorling was caused by different genes or combi off than mine or others in general?

I do not think so, I think I would have found at least some whorled in the seeds I grew from a Male Whorled X a Female Whorled I grew maybe 100 seeds from the cross. If it was recessive then like you say it would have not expressed in the parents with out being resesive/resesive for the trait and when bred to another resesive/resesive it would give resesive/resesive progeny, it did not and I could not find one whorled in the progeny.
That said I have found higher frequencies of whorled in certain populations, and that makes be believe it might be genetically modulated, but I do not know.
-SamS


It's just an attempt for fun and practice so far, but I created literally thousands of seeds with that same dad and will continue to look for whirled offspring and observe.
X
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Old 05-07-2014, 08:29 PM #28
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Thanks for the reply. Then I'm just going to try some different crosses (back, self, fem, whorled male x whorled female, F1 and F2 ) and see what happens. So far I got 20% whorled but that's over just a couple of dozen plans. Seems unlikely though that I got that lucky, including 2 females from 2 separate crosses, if the male didn't actually increase the frequency in the offspring. I'll try to plant a larger amount somewhere outside soon to get a better idea and see if there's a ratio.

The male I used started out as a quad (as in 4 set), and the first branches had 2, 3 and one with 4 sets, so far the branches of the plant I posted above are normal, but, another one that was topped off a regular one seems to start spiraling (leaves in set not opposing each other). It seems to starts to spiral up to a point where two leaves appear from the same side of the plant, leaving enough open space to accumulate enough auxin to create a third leaf at the opposing side at the same level and actually go from spiral to whorled (3 or more at same level).

I've been reading up a bit on phyllotaxy in general last night and it's making me look at plants in entirely different way. Concentrations of auxins determine where to initiate a new leaf, but there is still little known about how it is able to place and space those leaves according to a mathematical pattern - let alone how it switches from one to another and/or back. Computer models/simulations that can produce similar results have been suggested but it seems it's a quest by itself for a whole group of people worldwide to figured out how the plant adhere to fibonacci numbers.

My whorled plants have 'golden angles'
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:40 PM #29
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I saw that when I was germinating maArxjamaica hybrids, they popped with three or four cotyledons - and had trifoliate leaves. They didn't make it in my garden which was my any exception at the time. If I got a trifoliate I would probably set her outside and see what she done
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:31 PM #30
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I've seen several (on pics and 1 in real life) myself, where there are three cotyledons. I'm not sure but I think the proper label for such plants is tricot (e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/laurha/8664428752/ and https://sunflowernsa.com/research/res...edonous_05.pdf )

I've made some picture of one of my whorled females, one I topped, sexed and revegged (top is clone which I'm vegging now) and standing in my living room (so stretches) which gives some more insight in the behavior I described earlier. That is mine are going from regular opposite to spiral to twisting and rather than starting with the first leaves and disappearing after a few nodes, it does the opposite.




The behavior pointed out by the white arrow is what I noticed in my male as well (but with a 4th on the left). Instead of alternating two of them stay together. I have yet to see if that equals an extra bud every 2 nodes.

Regular opposite:

But, notice the golden angle ( ) at the top, it starts to spiral and leave space for a third leaf.


Here's a different take on phyllotaxy in which it is used for essentially the same advantage (catching more light):
https://www.archivenue.com/phyllotaxy...masoumi-verki/
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